Posted by cfl1 on 6/27/05 1:07pm
Msg #48171

Document says jurat, certifcate wording says acknowledgment.

I had a doc that started out with the venue, then said something like, “…duly sworn and deposes that…” with their signatures following. However, the preprinted certificate wording was for an acknowledgment. In a case like that, knowing that we are forbidden to choose the type of certificate, can I cross through that wording and attach jurat wording? Also, considering the importance of a jurat (compelling truthfulness, etc.), and the fact that it might not be deemed as valid only as an acknowledgment, what does one do? I tried to do some research on this, but maybe I’m looking in the wrong places. Also, I did a search here, but didn’t come up with any answers. Can you help?

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 6/27/05 1:48pm
Msg #48186

Re: Document says jurat, certifcate wording says acknowledgm

Call the recieving agency and ask. This type of situation came up yesterday. I have my opinion on it but would really like to know what the recieving agency says about it. Also did the acknowledgment wording comply with your state? Are you in Fl?

Now here's my opinion which could be wrong, but it was in my signing agent training. If the doc is titled "Affidavit" then it should be a jurat, due to the definition of the word affidavit. However I don't think that applies to a doc without "Affidavit" in it's title, although it says "duly sworn and diposed". Which begs the question "deposed by who?", which really may be none of my concern. But here's the dinger for me, if the notorial wording doesn't comply and I have to replace it I want to replace it with the correct certificate. Therefore I would come to the conclusion-call the recieving agency. Then please let us know what they say.

Reply by cfl1 on 6/27/05 1:57pm
Msg #48190

Re: Document says jurat, certifcate wording says acknowledgm

I believe the ack wording did basically comply. Yes, I am from FL. I will check up on some things and see what the receiving agency says. Thanks.

Any other info is appreciated.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 6/27/05 2:43pm
Msg #48213

Re: Document says jurat, certifcate wording says acknowledgm

In FLORIDA, it makes no difference what the title of document says. We cannot arbitrarily choose what form of notarization or certificate to use. We must use what ever is supplied, unless otherwise directed. And, pursuant to Florida Statutes s.117.03 Administration of oaths - The notary public may not take an acknowledgment of execution in lieu of an oath if an oath is required.

Therefore, when you have a document (usually an affidavit or an instrument containing a set of facts), the signers are swearing to, you must use a jurat certificate. If the document has the words, "duly sworn and deposes","under oath", "affiant", "swears to", etc., you, the notary, are directed by statute, to issue an oath to the signer. The confirmation that the oath was given and accepted by the signer, is the use of the jurat certificate. In the case where the document has a prepared acknowledgment that contradicts the statute, you need to strike out the acknowledgment and attach a loose jurat, or at least modify the existing wording in the certificate to make it a jurat.

On my loose jurats, I have the following paragraph:

[ ] Loose jurat certificate attached, pursuant to Florida Statutes s. 117.03 Administration of oaths - The notary public may not take an acknowledgment of execution in lieu of an oath if an oath is required.

I check the [X] so there is no question as to why a jurat was attached instead of using the existing acknowledgment.

Reply by cfl1 on 6/27/05 2:47pm
Msg #48216

Re: Document says jurat, certifcate wording says acknowledgm

Thanks! That's exactly what I needed to know!

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 6/27/05 3:28pm
Msg #48226

Re: Document says jurat, certifcate wording says acknowledgm

Thanks PAW, I am now even more motivated to research my CA handbook and see if it says something similar to back up what was in my training.

Reply by cfl1 on 6/27/05 3:42pm
Msg #48228

Re: Document says jurat, certifcate wording says acknowledgm

Speaking of handbooks, what is the best thing to buy for FL and where do I obtain that? Is there something on the State gov website?

Reply by PAW_Fl on 6/27/05 4:01pm
Msg #48235

Re: Document says jurat, certifcate wording says acknowledgm

First, get the FL Governor's Reference Manual for Notaries. It is available (in 11 files) on the FL website or you can download it (one file) from my website http://www.pawnotary.com/FloridaRoom/Florida_Manual.pdf

Also, I recommend the "Notary Public Handbook - Principles, Practices & Cases" National Edition, by Alfred E. Piombino.

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/27/05 4:34pm
Msg #48241

Re: Document says jurat, certifcate wording says acknowledgm

**Also, I recommend the "Notary Public Handbook - Principles, Practices & Cases" National Edition, by Alfred E. Piombino.**

PAW - I am all for furthering my education. However, can you give me an insider glimpse into why I'd like to read this book... YMBF

Reply by PAW_Fl on 6/27/05 4:56pm
Msg #48245

Re: Document says jurat, certifcate wording says acknowledgm

After state handbooks, assuming they are any good, and the statutes, this book is the "bible" for notaries. Mr. Piombino is considered the leading expert of contemporary Common Law Notarial practice. Mind you, this is not a signing agent book, strictly a notary and notarial law book.

Reply by BrendaTX on 6/28/05 10:23am
Msg #48435

PAW & Piombino

Alrighty then...I am going to find one. In my weird little life, this will be a hit for days while I digest the index and figure out what I can learn from it.

My sister complains bitterly when she comes to visit because of the lack of "decent" entertainment media and reading material here.

I can hardly wait to suggest this one as her night time reading material...right after I force her to watch Lonesome Dove with me ... all 10+ hours of it.

Reply by Dmartz_IN on 6/28/05 12:13pm
Msg #48480

Re: BrendaTX

I love Lonesome Dove , i watch it so much my long time girlfriend made me install cable in another room.

Reply by BrendaTX on 6/28/05 2:09pm
Msg #48515

Re: BrendaTX-Dmartz-IN

Man after my own heart!

Reply by PAW_Fl on 6/28/05 2:47pm
Msg #48531

Re: PAW & Piombino

ISBN: 0-944560-69-5 (pprbck) 0-944560-70-9 (hrdcvr)

To order, call 1-800-405-1070 (Major credit cards accepted)

Reply by cfl1 on 6/27/05 11:21pm
Msg #48371

Re: Document says jurat, certifcate wording says acknowledgm

Great! Thanks. You have been more than helpful!

Reply by corona71 on 6/27/05 3:55pm
Msg #48232

Re: Document says jurat, certifcate wording says acknowledgm

This is for SarahBeth,
I do have a question for you. You say if it has the word Affidavit in it then it must be a jurat. I have the Notary Signing Agent book, and it talks about Signature Affidavit and AKA stements, and that both ack, and jurat forms exist. In my sample in the book it is notarized with an ack., so I don't think just because the word Affidavit is on the doc that it is a jurat. Have you read that, or am I mistaken?

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 6/27/05 5:17pm
Msg #48249

Re: Document says jurat, certifcate wording says acknowledgm

This is the most interesting issue. I looked back in my manuals and at the CA handbook. Now in my training in the basic notary class I was taught that Affidavit=jurat. In my SA class taught by the same instructor it does state that both jurat and ack forms exist for the Name Affidavit. So then I look in the CA handbook. Gov Code 8202-Execution of jurat; administration of oath or affirmation to affiant; attachment to affidavit (a) When executing a jurat, a notary shall adminster an oath or affirmation to the affiant and shall determin, from personal knowledge or satisfactory evidence as described in Section 1185 of the Civil Code, that the affiant is the person executing the document. The affiant shall sign the document in the presence of the notary. (b) To any affidavit subscribed and sworn to before a notary, there shall be attached a jurat in the following form: (then a jurat form is shown)

Now I may be reading too much into it but what I'm concerned with is the phrase in the Gov Code "attachment to affidavit" and statement (b).

So when we have a doc with Affidavit (a sworn statement in writing made especially under oath or on affirmation before an authorized magistrate or officer) in it's title, the one who is signing is the affiant (one who swears to an affidavit), which in my opinion would mean use a jurat. I understand that reguardless of my opinion it is not up to me to choose which notorial cert. to use, but I must make sure the wording is correct.

So what are your thoughts on this.

Reply by corona71 on 6/27/05 5:42pm
Msg #48253

Re: Document says jurat, certifcate wording says acknowledgm

SaraBeth,
I am looking further into my California handbook, and will write back later. I have to step out for a couple of hours. Also, I went back into my refi packages and found our signature affidavit, and it was an ack form, but I just did a signing last week and the form was a jurat, but not with the new 2005 law wording, so I attached a loose jurat.

Reply by Anonymous on 6/27/05 5:58pm
Msg #48259

Re: Document says jurat, certificat wording says acknowledge

If the notary certificate is worded as an acknowledgment, but the document itself says the affiant is swearing to the document under oath; what would happen if you did this...
(Assuming you could not contact the SS or Title Co., LO etc.)

Fill out the acknowledgment on the form AND filled out a loose jurat. Then whoever gets the docs can decide which notarization is needed. They can cross off the acknowledgment and attach the jurat or simply shred the jurat and leave the form as is.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 6/27/05 6:05pm
Msg #48260

Re: Document says jurat, certificat wording says acknowledge

Anonymous asks why not fill out both a jurat and an acknowledgement, and let whoever gets the docs decide which to use. I wonder if a choice is even necessary; why can't a person both acknowledge a document and swear it is true?

Reply by PAW_Fl on 6/27/05 6:12pm
Msg #48264

Re: Document says jurat, certificat wording says acknowledge

They can. I have seen instruments with both acks and jurats on them. However, the notary cannot arbitrarily choose to add anything to an instrument unless specifically directed to do so. Unless the notary is also an attorney licensed to practice in the state of venue, adding to the document may be construed as UPL.

Reply by Terri_CA on 6/27/05 6:39pm
Msg #48270

Re: Document says jurat, certificat wording says acknowledge

California Notaries cannot not make the determination that because the title of the document says Affidavit, then it MUST have a Jurat. If the document has an acknowledgment certificate that's what they get. The only MUST is that if the notarial wording is there then you MUST notarize it .

If the document says "sworn to before me" in the body of the document, right at the beginning and has no notarial wording at the bottom, they get NOTHING. To add a notarization to that document would be UPL. Why? Because YOU the notary are making a decision that is not yours to make. Unless, of course, you were instructed to do so by the lender, title, or escrow company.

Terri
Lancaster, CA

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 6/27/05 7:39pm
Msg #48296

Re: Document says jurat, certificat wording says acknowledge

I totaly agree that we CA Notaries cannot make the determination on which cert to use. I just thought that the wording of the Gov Code was interesting when I was also considering my training. It doesn't really matter what my opinion on it is. And when it comes to my training the main point was it is not for the Notary to decide.

Thanks for your input everyone.

Reply by cfl1 on 6/27/05 11:27pm
Msg #48373

Re: Document says jurat, certificat wording says acknowledge

Thanks to all of you for your help!