Posted by CMS_NY on 6/5/05 11:40pm
Msg #42563

Extra Documents

I received a loan package for a signing on Monday for TWO (2) borrowers...Mr and Mrs X.

I have numerous copies of the RTC, Mortgage, Note, Tax Forms, etc. Are these additional copies provided in case of an error or does the Lender require a seperate copy of the documents signed by each person?

Both of their names appear on the Mortgage, Note, etc., so I can't imagine the borrowers being required to sign two seperate Mortgages, Notes, etc.

ANY THOUGHTS??

**They are NOT the borrowers copy... I have them seperate.

Reply by Sam on 6/5/05 11:59pm
Msg #42565

Bizarre. As discussed in a previous thread there can only be one "original" deed of trust and note notarized.

Definitely call the title co/lender/ss before you get to the signing table. Please write back and let us know the reason.

Reply by Bob-Chicago on 6/6/05 12:04am
Msg #42566

Not quite correct IMO

One one original note, but there can be multiple original mtgs/dots

Reply by B on 6/6/05 12:45am
Msg #42571

Sam,
Please always check information. I have been reading a lot of misinformation being passed on as to the correct procedure. Whoever wrote that there can not be multiple mortgages notarized for the same loan is either misinformed, or abiding by a law in that notary's state. The note is never notarized, but check the laws of your state to be accurate. A company wanting multiple copies of documents like the HUD signed six times may seem an odd request to you, but there is nothing wrong with it.

Reply by SamIam_CA on 6/6/05 9:04am
Msg #42594

Now I'm really confused!

**There can not be multiple mortgages notarized for the same loan is either misinformed, or abiding by a law in that notary's state. The note is never notarized, but check the laws of your state to be accurate.**

I swear there was a whole thread about why you should not notarize the DOT/Mortgage more than once. I will try to find that. And Holy Stamping Mistake - you are 100% right - I plead insanity in stating you notarize the note. My apologies!!

Reply by SamIam_CA on 6/6/05 9:44am
Msg #42600

Gggrrrr - should have copied the whole sentence...

"Whoever wrote that there can not be multiple mortgages notarized for the same loan is either misinformed, or abiding by a law in that notary's state."

I'm going to get my coffee right now!

Reply by PAW_Fl on 6/6/05 9:48am
Msg #42602

You MAY need to notarize a Note ...

Just for your information to place in the back of your mind, notes in VA may need to be notarized! FNMA allows the addition of a notary section to the Virginia notes, and many doc producers have added it to their FNMA Virginia Notes.

Reply by SamIam_CA on 6/6/05 9:31am
Msg #42598

Re: Extra Documents - the other post I referred to...

This makes sense - regardless of what state you're from. Sorry I didn't write down the message number, but it was in a thread from yesterday. I think Paw wrote this part...

You can record as many "copies" or "originals" of the mortgage you want, it won't create any additional liens, but certainly may cause any title investigation to go haywire until it is sorted out. The mortgage repeats the loan conditions, including the date of the note, amount, lender, etc. and would be identical in every fashion so it could be ascertained to be merely a copy.

However, even though I have been told the same holds true for the note, I don't see that happening. If there are two original notes (signed, sealed and delivered) and two original mortgages, then there certainly would appear to be two liens, albeit identical in nature, on the property. However, if there is only one note, and two mortgages reflecting back to just the one note, then there is no ambiguity. Actually, many notes have "Sign Original Only" on the signature page. If a lender requests a "copy" to be signed, I always suggest that to the signers that they may want to differentiate the original and the copy by placing the word "COPY" next to their signature on the "copy".

Reply by CMS_NY on 6/6/05 12:23am
Msg #42569

Oh and I forgot to mention the FOUR (4) Settlement Statements (HUD-1) !!

Reply by PAW_Fl on 6/6/05 7:18am
Msg #42583

Unless this is a HECM or other form of Reverse Mortgage, or a combination of a 1st and 2nd, I don't understand why there would be multiple notes and mortgages. EXCEPT, there are a couple of companies that want fully executed "certified" copies. In which case you should find instructions in the package explaining the purpose of the multiple notes and mortgage/DOT.

As for multiple copies of the RTC, this is common. The application package used to print the docs should print out as many copies as necessary to conform to the law. That is, with two signers, both on the same RTC, there should be a minimum of 5 copies; one to be returned to the lender and two for each signer.

Multiple HUDs are also very common and ALL must be signed by the borrowers. HUDs are used as receipts by the settlement officer, RE agent, broker, etc., once signed and funds are disbursed. Some settlement/title companies simply use copies, others want originally signed copies.

Reply by BrendaTX on 6/6/05 7:38am
Msg #42585

Speaking of HECM's and Rev Morts - Paul...

Speaking of HECM's and Rev Morts - what is the logic behind multiple documents?

Reply by PAW_Fl on 6/6/05 8:07am
Msg #42591

Re: Speaking of HECM's and Rev Morts - Paul...

They really are not "copies". In a reverse mortgage, there are actually two notes and two mortgages, similar to a 1st and 2nd. The 1st is for the lender to make the payments and the 2nd is in case the lender defaults, then HUD will make the payments.

Reply by BrendaTX on 6/6/05 10:29am
Msg #42614

Re: Speaking of HECM's and Rev Morts - Paul...

Whoo hooo!

Thanks Paul...I had told another notary (from WI) something similar to this but I was unable to determine that it was the lender default, then the HUD note. I just knew it was the "same but different" and I was crossing my fingers that my assessment that there were two different situations in these documents that were very similar.

Actually, I never seem to have enough time post/pre-signing on these things to study them enough. Or...I am so burned out by the loan signing apptment that I don't want to think about them.

This is VERY helpful to know.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 6/6/05 12:26pm
Msg #42663

Re: Speaking of HECM's and Rev Morts - Paul...

As Paul said, there are two entities involved. The lender and FHA.
HECM's are FHA insured, so if the lender defaults, FHA picks it up.

Reply by Arant19 on 6/6/05 11:45am
Msg #42645

Hi PAW!

What's HECM. Please advise. Thanx.

Carolyn

Reply by BrendaTX on 6/6/05 12:07pm
Msg #42653

Re: Extra Documents Arant

Not Paul, but HECM means Home Equity Conversion Mortgage.

FROM HUD: About the HECM Program:

The HECM FHA insured reverse mortgage can be used by senior homeowners age 62 and older to convert the equity in their home into monthly streams of income and/or a line of credit to be repaid when they no longer occupy the home. The loan, commonly known as HECM, is funded by a lending institution such as a mortgage lender, bank, credit union or savings and loan association.
Borrower Requirements:
- Age 62 years of age or older
- Own your property
- Occupy your property as primary residence
- Participation in a consumer information session given by an approved HECM counselor
Mortgage Amount Based On:
- Age of the youngest borrower
- Current interest rate
- Lesser of appraised value or the FHA insurance limit
Financial Requirements:
- No income or credit qualifications are required of the borrower
- No repayment as long as the property is the primary residence
- Closing costs may be financed in the mortgage
Property Requirements:
- 1 family home or 1-4 unit home with one unit occupied by the borrower
- Condominiums or Planned Unit Developments (PUD) must be HUD-FHA approved
- Cooperatives that meet HUD guidelines
- Mobile Homes that meet HUD guidelines
- Meets minimum property standards (borrower may fund repairs in the mortgage)
How the Home Equity Conversion Mortgage Program Works:
Homeowners 62 and older who have paid off their mortgages or have only small mortgage balances remaining, and are currently living in the home are eligible to participate in HUD's reverse mortgage program. The program allows homeowners to borrow against the equity in their homes. Homeowners can select from five payment plans:

* Tenure - equal monthly payments as long as at least one borrower lives and continues to occupy the property as a principal residence.
* Term - equal monthly payments for a fixed period of months selected.
* Line of Credit - unscheduled payments or in installments, at times and in amount of borrower's choosing until the line of credit is exhausted.
* Modified Tenure - combination of line of credit with monthly payments for as long as the borrower remains in the home.
* Modified Term - combination of line of credit with monthly payments for a fixed period of months selected by the borrower.

Homeowners whose circumstances change can restructure their payment options for a nominal fee of $20.

Unlike ordinary home equity loans, a HUD reverse mortgage does not require repayment as long as the home is the borrower's principal residence. Lenders recover their principal, plus interest, when the home is sold. The remaining value of the home goes to the homeowner or to his or her survivors. You can never owe more than your home's value.

If the sales proceeds are insufficient to pay the amount owed, HUD will pay the lender the amount of the shortfall. HUD's Federal Housing Administration (FHA) collects an insurance premium from all borrowers to provide this coverage.

The amount a homeowner can borrow depends on their age, the current interest rate, other loan fees and the appraised value of their home or FHA 's mortgage limits for their area, whichever is less. Generally, the more valuable your home is, the older you are, the lower the interest, the more you can borrow.

For example, based on a loan with an interest rates of approximately 9 percent, and a home qualifying for $100,000, a 65-year-old could borrow up to 22 percent of the home's value; a 75-year-old could borrow up to 41 percent of the home's value; and, an 85-year-old could borrow up to 58 percent of the home's value. The percentages do not include closing costs because these charges can vary.

There are no asset or income limitations on borrowers receiving HUD's reverse mortgages.

There are also no limits on the value of homes qualifying for a HUD reverse mortgage. The value of the home will be determined by an independent appraisal. However, the amount that may be borrowed is capped by the maximum FHA mortgage limit for the area, which varies from $172,632 to $312,895. For Alaska, Guam, Hawaii and the Virgin Islands, the FHA mortgage limits may be adjusted up to 150 percent of the ceiling depending on the area. The FHA limits usually increase each year. As a result, owners of higher-priced homes can't borrow any more than owners of homes valued at the FHA limit.

HUD's reverse mortgage program collects funds from insurance premiums charged to borrowers. Senior citizens are charged 2 percent of the home's value as an up-front payment plus a .5% annual premium, which is paid out on a monthly basis for the life of the loan. These amounts are usually paid by the lender and charged to the borrower's principal balance.

A homeowner must receive consumer education and counseling by a HUD-FHA approved HECM counselor. You can also use this handy Reverse Mortgage Calculator to help you see if you qualify.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 6/6/05 2:02pm
Msg #42686

Thank you ...

my Texas sister.

Reply by BrendaTX on 6/6/05 2:42pm
Msg #42692

Re: Thank you ...

You are welcome my Florida "Bubba."

Reply by B on 6/6/05 12:27am
Msg #42570

Whatever the lender sends you for the borrowers to sign, you can the borrowers sign them. It is not up to the notary to determine what to do with the documents. If you are truly uncertain, always call the company who assigned you to the closing. There isn't a day that goes by where I do not have duplicate mortgages.

Reply by Joan Bergstrom on 6/6/05 1:30am
Msg #42574

I agree with this last post!

I have completed over 1700 loan signings and I have had loan packages that had (3) Deeds of Trust for the borrower to sign and return to the lender/title/signing co. etc.

I have also had loan packages that have had (8) Right to Cancel forms for the borrowers to sign and had (8) Right to Cancel forms included in the borrower's copies.

My only comment is; just get everything signed and you won't have a problem with the title/lender/escrow/signing-company that hired you.

Reply by SamIam_CA on 6/6/05 9:34am
Msg #42599

Re: Extra Documents - do you stamp them?

I have no qualms at all about getting everything signed. But how about everything notarized? Do you fill out the notarization certificate multiple times for the same document?

Reply by Dave_CA on 6/6/05 10:16am
Msg #42606

Re: Extra Documents - do you stamp them?

I have one title company that always sends 2 copies of the DOT. Both are to be signed and notarized and then the full loan package is returned to them and the 2nd DOT is sent to a recording service.
I don't have any issues with this as we are notarizing the borrower's signatures rather than the document

Reply by SamIam_CA on 6/6/05 10:32am
Msg #42617

Re: Extra Documents - do you stamp them?

***we are notarizing the borrower's signatures rather than the document***

That is the key phrase that I needed. THANK YOU Dave for helping me get my head around this! I hope the original poster did the job correctly.

Reply by Joan-OH on 6/6/05 6:54am
Msg #42580

You did not say where the title company is from, but I find this a lot with New York title company closings. Three of everything and really a PITA. I had a package that had 3 of everything including the junk docs. It was about 2" thick squished by the binder clip. Borrowers were not comfortable signing 3 notes, so I called and title allowed me to have 1 note signed and they would make certified copies when it got back. I really got the feeling that for some reason they were required to have 2 certified copies, but are too lazy to make them and just want 3 total signed at the table.

JMO

Joan-OH

Reply by PA Notary II on 6/6/05 10:35am
Msg #42620

Anyone who has ever done HFC or Beneficial loans will tell you that each and every one has two fully executed and notarized mortgages

Reply by CMS_NY on 6/6/05 11:48am
Msg #42646

Follow-up

I got a hold of the Escrow/Settlement company and they told me to just have everything signed, dated, and notarized where applicable.

It must be that the lender needs additional copies of these documents.