Posted by AngelinaAZ on 6/28/05 10:16pm
Msg #48665
Lawyers out there??? OT
I have a really big problem and I need to know where I can look up a California Court Case and what the 'decision' meant. I looked up a case and to me... it seems to be one way, in my favor... and to my very expensive attorney... it seems to be in favor of the other party. Anybody willing to give me pointers on where to look. I don't consider myself to be stupid... but I must be because to me it seems totally opposite of what my attorney is telling me.
I am so upset right now... and confused. JUSTICE SYSTEM?????
| Reply by AngelinaAZ on 6/28/05 11:19pm
Msg #48691
Re: Educated Opinions Anyone??? OT
I would love to get some opinions to see if I am crazy or not. What does the final decision mean? Does the kid go to the parent or stay with the Grandmother? I'll give a short background after a couple opinons so as to not create bias.
http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/programs/cfcc/resources/caselaw/other/01.htm
| Reply by Lee/AR on 6/28/05 11:45pm
Msg #48696
Re: Educated Opinions Anyone??? OT
Stay with Grandma is my best guess. Lawyer-speak.... yi yi yi...aaaarrrggghh.
| Reply by sheila ins an jose ca on 6/29/05 12:01am
Msg #48700
Re: Educated Opinions Anyone??? OT
not that my opinion is worth much, (but I do love to read)Sounds like the judge is leaning on allowing the children to stay with the grandparents, even though, it was determined it wasn't exactly necessary anymore? It is rather hard to follow, sounds like he granted the request for termination of guardianship, but then had it "stay" in force, pending the appeal from the grandparents who don't want it to end.
| Reply by mkate_CA on 6/29/05 12:02am
Msg #48701
Re: Educated Opinions Anyone??? OT
I'm a former lawyer (don't do family law though, and don't practice anymore so I can't help there), but I did read that part (from the link), and that can't be the entire case (which would be more helpful). That part didn't say either way what the decision was; it's talking about standards and definitions and how the trial court got it (or part of it) wrong. It does sound like the appellate court is saying NOT to terminate guardianship, but without the entire case I can't be sure.
A few suggestions: 1) try findlaw.com; there's a link for specific states and it has some case law; 2) trust your lawyer's opinion on the interpretation of the case, they're most likely right. I'm assuming your lawyer specializes in this area so he/she probably knows what they're talking about (hopefully!).
I hope that helps.
| Reply by AngelinaAZ on 6/29/05 12:06am
Msg #48703
Re: As short of a background as I can give.
Thank you for the reference... I'm going to check it out.
5 years ago, my (on and off drug addicted) sister dropped my 11 year old nephew off at my house for the weekend and never came back. She said that she just couldn’t handle a kid anymore. My husband and I welcomed him into our family and have been raising him ever since. He is 16 now, a varsity football player on a great team. He does pretty well in school (not the best student but not the worst). He is such a good kid with a great heart and he is a wonderful part of my family. I endured a lot of criticism because of my decision to keep him (I was 26 when he came to live with us) but there was truly no-one else stepping to the plate and he is my family. It was a great decision… evidenced now by a great kid!
6 months ago his mother came in the middle of the day and removed him from school saying she wanted him back. She had no legal authority to do so as she has no parental rights but… the school let him go. She took him to CA and tried to enroll him in school out there. The CA court quickly returned him to me but now she has filed to terminate the guardianship (she did not agree to guardianship in the first place… her parental rights were removed because of abandonment). The court has now stated that he spend the entire summer with her so that he can decide whether he wants to go live with her or not. He has already said ‘no’ about a hundred times… that he is 16, has a family, sports, girlfriend, friends… he likes his life and although he wants his mother to be a part of his life he wants to finish high school where he is. The court isn’t listening, saying that guardianship may no longer be necessary and he has to give her a chance. He left to go stay with her a week ago and she’s been throwing huge screaming crying fits, begging him to choose her… crying all the time and he is feeling like CRAP. He has called me in the middle of the night a few times really sounding broken down. I feel like my insides are ripped apart.
He really wants to stay with us, we are fighting to be able to keep him and it is costing us a fortune (I don’t mind the money if I am being represented well). I’m trying to look up things that can help me… I found a case that seems to set precedence in my favor... it is the case I posted in the previous message.
http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/programs/cfcc/resources/caselaw/other/01.htm
My attorney says that on the surface it is in my favor but under the surface it is not. She says that it doesn’t help my case at all. It doesn’t make any sense. I think she’s not reading it right but who am I to tell her that? Can anyone explain it to me or tell me a better place to look?
| Reply by BrendaTx on 6/29/05 1:33am
Msg #48709
Re: As short of a background as I can give.
Angelina,
You are correct - your lawyer's position is not making sense. Can you see another attorney?
Is it possible that your lawyer is intimidated about litigating something that is not straight up family law?
Consider a consultation with another attorney who practices mostly in, or specializes in, the law that governs this type of guardianship in AZ or CA. If I am understanding this correctly, you have a probate law matter (in Tx anyhow it would be) which may be intimidating to your attorney--laws are so different between "custody" and guardianship. Then again, this may be totally different in AZ...straight family law....however, don't take the under the surface answer at face value.
The dual states thing CA v AZ may also be worrying your attorney...they may just want to settle it and stay out of unfamiliar courtrooms.
Now, don't get me wrong, I don't dislike lawyers...I owe a lot to all they have taught me, however they are just people and they are under lots of pressure...sometimes getting a client to settle seems in everyone's best interest. And sometimes judges have THE WAY they will handle these things and don't want anyone suggesting otherwise or it ticks them off. Yep, I have seen this kind of thing and heaven help ya if you did not do a "cookie cutter" proposal for clearing your client's problem off the judge's docket.
Understand that I am armchair qb-ing...I am just speculating..I am sitting around 1500 miles away without any more facts than: The boy is SIXTEEN years old and you have proven yourself/he wants to stay. Case closed.
Good luck. Be tough for him.
| Reply by AngelinaAZ on 6/29/05 1:49am
Msg #48710
Re: Brenda...
I looked into it further and it still doesn't make sense. I have attorneys in both Arizona and California... both are probate... specializing in guardianship. My CA attorney is a very reputable attorney so I don't get it, she is in fact the same one that handled the initial guardianship. I asked her to explain it to me and she started talking really fast and quoting 'a bunch of crap'. I really tried to follow her and it seemed she was giving me the run-around. From what I can see... the burden is on the party who wants to change the status quo to prove that the good they can do will outweigh the damage caused by removing a child from a successful situation that they are happy in. There is inherent damage in dumping kids off from place to place and a consistant... positive situation is the best.
I know that I get a little sassy here and there on the Notary Board... but truly... I'm a great mom (aunt). My nephew and I are alot alike and my house is filled with laughter all the time. I hate to see this happening. Thanks for the encouragement.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 6/29/05 5:59am
Msg #48714
Re: Brenda...
http://adsl-63-202-25-19.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net//lawrepository/htm/16Jun98-G019208-GuardOfCassandra.htm
John of FL is so right. I woke up thinking about this and did a search for the case to read it for myself. (I understand the hard time you are having--seen similar situations in my life.)
You are on the right track...like John said, you need to talk to a lawyer who will explain where your logic is not correct on this, if so. (I think that's what he said...that's what I say!)
Is this judge (the one who told ya'll that nephew must spend summer with mom) buried in ideology that seems to prevail when children are ret'd to abusive homes (which actually is what this is about - abuse via neglect)?? I mean... the way that some believe in always keeping the child with the natural parent when at all possible even when a surrogate would be better for the child.
BTW good for you and the laughter...I laugh about something every day. It's just good medicine. Here's one of my favorites/my kids' favorites when they were little to laugh about. Yeah, it's corny, but it's pretty funny too if you have a twisted sense of humor like my group does....
Things to do in an Elevator
Make race car noises when anyone gets on or off.
Blow your nose and offer to show the contents of your kleenex to other passengers.
Grimace painfully while smacking your forehead and muttering: Shut up, dammit, all of you just shut UP!
Whistle the first seven notes of It's a Small World incessantly.
Sell Girl Scout cookies.
On a long ride, sway side to side at the natural frequency of the elevator.
Shave.
Crack open your briefcase or purse, and while peering inside ask: Got enough air in there?
Offer name tags to everyone getting on the elevator. Wear yours upside-down.
Stand silent and motionless in the corner, facing the wall, without getting off.
When arriving at your floor, grunt and strain to yank the doors open, then act embarrassed when they open by themselves.
Lean over to another passenger and whisper: Noogie patrol coming!
Greet everyone getting on the elevator with a warm handshake and ask them to call you Admiral.
Stare, grinning, at another passenger for a while, and then announce: 'I've got new socks on!'
Meow occasionally.
Bet the other passengers you can fit a quarter in your nose.
Walk on with a cooler that says 'human head' on the side.
Stare at another passenger for a while, then announce 'You're one of THEM!' and move to the far corner of the elevator.
Wear a puppet on your hand and use it to talk to the other passengers.
When the elevator is silent, look around and ask 'Is that your beeper?'
On the highest floor, hold the door open and demand that it stay open until you hear the penny you dropped down the shaft go plink at the bottom.
Do Tai Chi exercises.
Stare, grinning, at another passenger for a while, and then announce: I've got new socks on!
When at least 8 people have boarded, moan from the back: Oh, not now, damn motion sickness!
Give religious tracts to each passenger.
Meow occassionally.
Bet the other passengers you can fit a quarter in your nose.
Frown and mutter gotta go, gotta go then sigh and say oops!
Show other passengers a wound and ask if it looks infected.
Sing Mary had a little lamb while continually pushing buttons.
Holler Chutes away! whenever the elevator descends.
Walk on with a cooler that says human head on the side.
Stare at another passenger for a while, then announce You're one of THEM! and move to the far corner of the elevator.
Burp, and then say mmmm...tasty!
Leave a box between the doors.
Ask each passenger getting on if you can push the button for them.
Wear a puppet on your hand and talk to other passengers through it.
Start a sing-along.
When the elevator is silent, look around and ask is that your beeper?
Play the harmonica.
Shadow box.
Say Ding! at each floor.
Lean against the button panel.
Say I wonder what all these do and push the red buttons.
Listen to the elevator walls with a stethoscope.
Draw a little square on the floor with chalk and announce to the other passengers that this is your personal space.
Bring a chair along.
Take a bite of a sandwich and ask another passenger: Wanna see wha in muh mouf?
Blow spit bubbles.
Pull your gum out of your mouth in long strings.
Announce in a demonic voice: I must find a more suitable host body.
Carry a blanket and clutch it protectively.
Make explosion noises when anyone presses a button.
Wear X-Ray Specs and leer suggestively at other passengers.
Stare at your thumb and say I think it's getting larger.
If anyone brushes against you, recoil and holler Bad touch!
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 6/29/05 8:21am
Msg #48737
Re: Brenda...
Angelina
Can you have the court appoint a Guardian Ad Litem for your nephew?
I was a Guardian Ad Litem here in Florida and the judges did listen to us.
| Reply by Liz on 6/29/05 12:56pm
Msg #48795
Re: As short of a background as I can give.
Angelina,
My heart goes out to you. I cant help you with any advice...but I will be thinking of you, and sending positive thoughts to you and your family. I am in So Cal, So Orange County and my family is in No Cal.... Sac. If I am anywhere near your nephew, you can give him a safe place and person in case of emergency... [e-mail address].
| Reply by AngelinaAZ on 6/29/05 1:23pm
Msg #48809
Re: Thank you Liz. Very kind offer.
You are single-handedly restoring my faith in signing services!
| Reply by Nancy in Florida on 6/29/05 6:41am
Msg #48720
Re: As short of a background as I can give.
Angelina,
I am not an Attorney but I am adopting children through foster care. It has been a long road and we are almost to the end (I hope) It has been almost 5 years and we are now on our second appeal for the TPR (Termination of Parental Rights)
I have been a sponge and I have read and researched all I can about TPR, guardianship and adoption. BTW: The State' Court website's are great! I was the first one to find out that the first appeal was upheld on my case. I got the ball rolling on the adoption petition that very day. Attorneys are great but we alslo need to be the advocates for the children in our care. You might want to consider taking your questions to another forum, I visit one that is great, www.fosterparents.com, it is for foster parents, adoptive parents, guardians and relative caregivers. The people on that board have so much experience with family law and there are many that can probably help you too.
After reading the case law you posted I don't know if it helps you or not, but I would think it would help you more than hurt you, it basically states that just because a guardianship is no longer necessary isn't the same as best interest, the absence of the continued need for the guardianship does not mean terminating the guardianship is in the child's best interest.
I know many States give children a voice of where they want to stay after a certain age. You should check it out for the State that is hearing your case. Also at 16 some States allow a child to be an emancipated minor, California is one so you might want to check that out as well.
One thing I do not understand, if your sister's parental rights have been terminated, she is legally not his parent, how can she have standing to try and terminate the current guardianship? I know all States are different but it was always my understanding that TPR is final and rarely overturned. In my opinion the fact that she removed him from school without authority to do so and transporting him to another State would be considered kidnapping.
Good luck and I hope that the best interest of you son is met by staying right where he belongs.
| Reply by Anon on 6/29/05 8:25am
Msg #48738
Re: As short of a background as I can give.
Like anything else where you expect quality, get another attorney's opinion.
I believe when looking for a lawyer, you need to continue to interview them until you reach the one that says, I can win this for you. Ask how. When the lawyer convinces you, that is the one you go with.
| Reply by Anon on 6/29/05 8:19am
Msg #48736
Re: Educated Opinions Anyone??? OT
Angelina:
The trial court ruled in favor of the father to have custody stating "the guardianship is no longer necessary;" however, the ruling was stayed (postponed) to give the grandmother time to appeal the decision. In other words, the grandmother retains physical custody until the apellate court reaches the decision.
In the appelate court's ruling, the appelate judge determined that that the trial judge did not use the appropriate legal language. The father overcoming his alcohol problem and wanting to take care of children did not equate to CA law 1601 where the change of guardianship meets "the best interest of the child."
The appelate court's decision is in regard to detriment, which means it is worse for the children to be removed from their present caregiver (in this case the grandmother) than it is using the father's present moral fitness as a means to determine their placement as it is the father's problem with alcohol (his moral fitness) that brought about the change in guardianship in the first place.
I'm not an attorney, but this is how I understand the ruling.
| Reply by InkWerk/CA on 6/29/05 1:03pm
Msg #48798
Re: Educated Opinions Anyone??? OT
link to an interpretation - http://www.prisonerswithchildren.org/pubs/gpmanual/perm.htm
GUARDIANSHIP of KASSANDRA and PAIGE H. - http://adsl-63-202-25-19.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net//lawrepository/htm/16Jun98-G019208-GuardOfCassandra.htm
| Reply by John_FL on 6/29/05 4:02am
Msg #48713
1. I am not a lawyer.
2. The link that you posted is to a summary of the case written by someone, rather than the actual case itself. It is very difficult to understand from that summary just exactly what has happened. If you want to understand the case and how it may or may not apply to yours, you need to get the actual case. You can do that on the California Court of Appeals website at http://appellatecases.courtinfo.ca.gov/. The web site is a little tricky, but if you look under Fourth Appellate District Division 3, and search using the citation given in the summary, you can find the full text of the case at no cost.
3. If your attorney is unwilling or unable to explain to you why this case doesn't help you in a manner that is clear to you, you really need to find an attorney that can. You are paying way too much money for her to take your concern lightly.
Good luck.
| Reply by Bobbi in CT on 6/29/05 9:11am
Msg #48754
Not a lawyer, some not helpful information ...
Angelina,
I am not giving you advice or saying whether your lawyer or another lawyer is good or better. I can see your lawyer's view on the case you found:
It's not "on point." In short and based on your posts: Because the case you refer to does not have the same set of facts as your personal situation, it is useless. It is not a good case to prove you should keep your nephew (using the exact set of facts in the case you found as the reason) rather than return your nephew to his mother, who "technically" has cleaned up her act and wants her child who was "taken away" from her returned.
I take NO sides. In addition to every thing else, both sets of lawyers will use examples of previous decideds cases with the same or similar set of facts to point out why the Judge should decide in his/her client's favor.
It's far more complicated and heartbreaking than this. I don't want to discourage you from continuing to look up cases, ask questions, etc. In my neck of the woods, if a client flat out admits to his/her attorney, "Wait a minute. I don't understand what you are saying," the attorney will shift to english. Lawyers often forget that something that makes perfect sense to them sounds like unintelligble mumbo-jumbo and gibberish to their client. Do this the next time you talk with your lawyer ... or if there's a paralegal assisting, many of us speak in plain language.
If you want to look up cases, try this as a guide: Write on one sheet of paper a list of the FACTS of your case: nephew, how he came to live with you, child "taken" or "abandoned by one parent (what happened to other parent), mother & her circumstances then and now, what you can offer nephew, what mother can offer nephew, etc. Now, try to find a case that had the same or similar facts (as you read the case write down the Facts on a separate sheet of paper) and was decided in YOUR favor rather than the parents .... and why. Remember: It must be a case in the Court district you are fighting this in and it must have a final Decision (not pending an appeal). Finding "on point" cases, reading, digesting, and summarizing cases is a fine art. Not a slam at you. You CAN do it. It just takes a great deal of time, knowing how and where to do the research, the research "short cuts,", and a logical mind.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 6/29/05 12:27pm
Msg #48785
Re: Not a lawyer, some not helpful information ...
Bobbi never ceases to amaze me. Lots of insight. Wow! Excellent logic and level headed thinking.
From the boy's perspective, whatever happens, it will be good for him to know that Angelina DID attempt to keep him...and I know a bit about this... Being moved like livestock to a new place with different rules, people, etc., is not real helpful for a kid at any age.
I have a feeling that no matter what transpires, Angelina will find a way to manifest it positively.
Her nephew will know that she tried...that will mean an awful lot...It's really bad for a child to feel they were not worth fighting for. Perhaps the mother's interlude of motherly feelings will help this as well if she LISTENS to him and shows him respect rather than treating him yet again as a non-person.
Thinking back on my 16 yo days...and y 16 yo kiddos, I think that it's preposterous for a mother to assume she can rejoin the boy now for a mother/son relationship. It's too little too late.
Her best angle would be to become a friend, visit and rebuild trust...if she does this she'll have something...if she does tries to gain "custody" of a 16 yo (dang near a man for all practical purposes) she'll be shooting herself in the foot.
Okay...out of my armchair qb position...getting my signings suit on...then, after these 'uns tonight...You know what's next!
WE WILL ALL JOIN HANDS AND MARKET LIKE FOOLS.
| Reply by Lee/AR on 6/29/05 10:49am
Msg #48769
Maybe nephew needs to 'hire' his own Lawyer
Who will represent his interests... not yours; not sister... what HE wants. At 16, hes' certainly old enough to know what he wants. Obviously, this is just my opinion of an avenue to be explored. Whether or not it has a legal leg to stand on.... I don't know.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 6/29/05 12:30pm
Msg #48786
Re: Maybe nephew needs to 'hire' his own Lawyer
You are so right, Lee. The fact that this has not been mentioned by the court is what I find strange...but maybe A's just left that part out for this panel of "jurists."  I'm sure we'll hear more. To date, it's only been the Reader's Digest version.
| Reply by AngelinaAZ on 6/29/05 12:57pm
Msg #48796
Re: To sum it up.
Thank you all for your input. I know this board is not for our personal problems but I sincerely appreciate the input of my peers. It helped to staighten out my thinking and focus me in a good direction.
To Sylvia and Lee... He does have his own attorney in California. Supposedly he is the one who will have great bearing on the decision of the judge. He is good... but it is hard to get a 16 year old to open up sometimes to someone he doesn't know. My nephew has had it rough... and he's pretty good at putting on his tough face and acting like everything is OK. I hope that his attorney knows this and tries to probe a little deeper. I'm going to check out the Guardian Ad Litum thing at Sylvia was talking about. We also did meet with Family Court Services and when the report came out it was recommended that he remain with us and have limited visitation with his mother. It was insinuated in the report (of course they can't say it) that his mother is a little unstable. She gave the impression that her motivation was stemming from the need to prove to her new boyfriend and his family that she didn't REALLY abandon her kid.
I'm checking out the Parental Rights thing... maybe I'm confused. All I know is that she can file for termination because she obviously did it and the court is listening to her. Life was just good before and I never paid attention to these details. I was just concentrating on raising a good kid with as few hang ups as possible. How naive of me!
Thank you Brenda for your advice, and thank you for making me laugh (Maybe you've noticed that 'sassy Angelina' turned into 'cranky Angelina the SS rag') ... and thank you everyone for the links, the foster parents board and the input. I am checking it all out. I have a decision to make about my attorney... it is hard to switch gears so late in the game but if it needs to be done... it needs to be done.
The final decision is to be made at the end of July... so I'll let you guys know the outcome.
Thanks again all...
| Reply by Teasa/NY on 6/29/05 1:12pm
Msg #48805
Re: To sum it up.
God bless you girl. Your nephew is a very lucky to have you as an aunt. I hope that good prevails in this one.
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