Posted by Melanea/fl on 6/10/05 9:25am
Msg #43757

Signatures

I am a bit confused. I have read that if the lender's docs have someone's name, Ex: James White and Mary White, the SA must have the brws sign exactly as it shows on the lender docs.
Now if the ID says James Ceasar White and the wife's id says Mary P. Sanchez and they sign exactly as shown on the id, then what should I do? Make them sign as the lender docs show or the id? If I am notarizing their signatures based on the ID but they sign differently because of the lender's request then, how can I notarize that?

I am confused...

TIA

Reply by db_IL on 6/10/05 9:32am
Msg #43759

It's standard that borrower is to apply signature exactly like document says (ex: if doc says Jane R. Doe - they can't sign just Jane Doe).

However, before beginning the signing as a notary you must verify ID. It is acceptable for ID to have more info than doc, but not less (or different) (ex: doc says Jane R. Doe but ID says Jane Renee Doe FINE, but ID cannot be accepted if doc says Jane R. Doe and ID says Jane R. Smith)

In your case you can't notarize using that ID, names aren't even close!

Reply by Art_MD on 6/10/05 9:34am
Msg #43760

You have them sign as shown on the lenders docs.
If there are several versions, and is often the case, on different docs i.e. The application(1003), DOT, etc. make sure all versions are on the AKA statement.

Borrowers can undersign... James Ceasar White can sign as James C. White, James White.
Borrower can't oversign. If I.D. says James C. White, he can't sign James Ceasar White. He can't produce I.D., and you can't verify his identification as James Ceasar White.

I feel that PAW will respond in time to this.

Part of the problem arises from DOTs. If a DOT is presently recorded in name of James C. White, the new DOT must be signed as James C. White. Otherwise, there is a good chance the new DOT wouldn't record.

Art

Reply by Melanea/fl on 6/10/05 9:58am
Msg #43764

ok, I can accept MR. White's Id (more not less) but the question remains does he sign as usual (like on his id) or like the lender requires?

for Mrs. White. I can't accept the document because it is different. Now she says that she used to go by Mary White and had a license like that (the previous DOT says Mary White) but after 911 she had to renew her license and the DMV changed her name back to match her "green card" which has her maiden name. She showed me her marriage certificate which shows her maiden name and says she married Mr. White, but I can't use that. I already mentioned her "green card" shows her maiden name and she says it will take 6 months at least before she can get that changed from the appropiate government agency. Is there anything else that can be done??

Reply by melanea/fl on 6/10/05 10:00am
Msg #43765

to add to the previous message...
... the question remains because I am notarizing the signature on the id not on the lender docs, what would be the right thing to do?

TIA for all your response, and thanks to all of you that have already responded.

Reply by peterole_MN on 6/10/05 10:15am
Msg #43768

Call SS, LO and/or title (whatever ones are listed on your instruction sheets) and have them give advice.

Reply by Lee/AR on 6/10/05 10:23am
Msg #43772

And then ignore it. You can't ID the woman. It's not your job as a Notary to "make it work"; it's their obligation to have proper ID.

Reply by Melanea/fl on 6/10/05 10:38am
Msg #43775

Lee:
I actually did. It happened to me yesterday, but I wondered if there was anything else I could have done to get it done...

Anyhow, the main purpose of the question was wheather I have the bwrs sign as shown on the lender docs or the as they sign on the id.

if the answer is as on the lender docs, isn't it wrong to do that since the signature that I am actually notarizing is the one on the ID?

Thanks for all your responses.

Reply by Art_MD on 6/10/05 12:59pm
Msg #43802

Re: you notarize signature - not name on ID

You are NOT notarizing the signature on the ID. You are notarizing that "mr. x" signed the doc after acknowledging or swearing. This after you had ID'd him. Id must equal or exceed name he is signing.

Art

Reply by PAW_Fl on 6/10/05 1:49pm
Msg #43820

I agree to ignore what the SS has to say. But she most certainly can ID the signer per Florida statutes.

Not trying to be harsh, but if you don't know the laws of a particular state, then please don't state your opinions as if they are facts. This has gotten more notaries in trouble than probably anything else. Florida as some pretty screwy laws and a couple of them are in the notary statutes. Unfortunately, many others profess to know how to do our jobs and offer incorrect information. (Even the NNA has been guilty of that!).

Reply by PAW_Fl on 6/10/05 1:43pm
Msg #43818

You are not notarizing the signature on the ID. You are notarizing the signature on the documents. You must verify the name on the documents by using acceptable ID, per FL statutes Chapter 117.

So, for Mr. White, there's no problem as long as he signs "James C. White" as it is printed and his ID contains **at least* "James C. White".

Now, for Mrs. White, you have a bit of a problem, but Florida statutes provide a way to handle these situations. Open your Governor's Reference Manual to page 61. It shows you how to use the "... who represented to me that she is formerly known as ..." construct for your certificate. You still acknowledge her name as shown on the ID, but this construct allows the signer to attest to a name variation which has satisfactorily been proven to you by supporting documentation.

Reply by Art_MD on 6/10/05 1:46pm
Msg #43819

PAW - I knew you'd respond N/M

Reply by Melanie/fL on 6/10/05 1:55pm
Msg #43823

Paw:
But the documents said James White, not James C White. Do I have him sign as James C. White still even though the docs say James White only? Lender wanted them to sign exactly as the docs: James White.


TIA for responses.


THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR HELP!
At least I now know what to do next time!!!!

Reply by PAW_Fl on 6/10/05 2:21pm
Msg #43830

>>> Lender wanted them to sign exactly as the docs: James White. <<<

And the answer is: Lender wanted them to sign exactly as the docs: James White.

His ID could say any of the following:

James White
James C. White
James <insert ANY name or initial here> White

You are simply directed to ascertain the the name on the document is a "match" to the id. It does not have to be an **exact** match other than every part of the name on the docs must be specified on the ID. But the ID can have more information than is required.

Reply by Melanie/FL on 6/10/05 2:33pm
Msg #43832

So if he signs James Ceasar White on the docs, it will be acceptable to the lender, or they he must sign as James White only?
( i sound a little stubborn, I just want to make sure I will do it right!)

My actual question is not: "does the name on the id match exactly to the docs, it is do they have to sign exactly as in the docs?

For example since I now know I can notarize Mrs. White signature with the special wording on the certificate, does she sign the lender docs as Mary White or as Mary P. Sanchez?

I hope I am explaining myself better so that everyone can understand... and I can get an accurate answer to my dilema

TY for your answers!

Reply by PAW_Fl on 6/10/05 3:04pm
Msg #43837

>>> My actual question is not: "does the name on the id match exactly to the docs, it is do they have to sign exactly as in the docs? <<<

As you previously stated, and I previously repeated, "Lender wanted them to sign exactly as the docs: James White."

>>> now know I can notarize Mrs. White signature with the special wording on the certificate, does she sign the lender docs as Mary White or as Mary P. Sanchez? <<<

For that answer, you will need to contact the lender to see how they want it. From what you've been saying, it is "exactly as the docs", but they may want you to have her sign with and AKA, e.g., Mary P. Sanchez n/k/a Mary White.

Reply by Lee/AR on 6/10/05 10:21am
Msg #43771

Actually it's not a 'recording' issue; it's a 'chain of title' issue. James C. White may or may not be James Ceasar White. I am not addressing ID issues here, OK?

Reply by Becca/FL on 6/10/05 10:59am
Msg #43782

Here is your answer....

1) You may accept a "green card" as identification.

2) Signature(s) & Notary Certificate must match the vesting to record. (In a perfect world)

3) In the state of Florida, you may use wording as follows if signer does not have ID that matches the name on the docs. ( I only do it with the consent of the Title Co. & only if I feel sure, by way of Marriage cert., etc. that the signer is who she is representing to be.)

Mary P. Sanchez, who represented to me that she is now know as Mary White.

Reply by Terri_CA on 6/10/05 11:57am
Msg #43790

In California - You have Mr. White sign his name as printed on the documents, and the name as printed on the documents is entered into the Notarial Certificate as the person you identified. His ID shows more than what is on the document, that is ok.

For Mrs. she would have to either present another acceptable form of ID or get two Credible Witnesses who would take an oath that states she is the person named in the documents, etc. Once they (Credible Witnesses) have taken the oath, you would complete the certificate, again using the signer's name as printed on the document signature line and the signer would sign that printed name.

Unlike Florida, California Notaries cannot "tie" into a name using a Marriage License as told to me personally by Paul Bresnan, head of the California Secretary of State Notary Division. His words, "A Marriage License proves two people got married, it does not identify them." He further went on to say it that a Marriage License is not an acceptable identification document as per the California notary Handbook.

Terri
Lancaster, CA

Reply by PAW_Fl on 6/10/05 2:01pm
Msg #43825

In Florida - if a person has ID (albeit wrong name) and has the ability to obtain ID, you cannot use two credible witnesses. Further, Mr. Bresnan was not accurate in what he said, or what was said has been somewhat misinterpreted. In Florida, we cannot "tie" names together using a marriage license or any other document. We can write our certificates such that the signer is attesting to the use of another name, much like an embedded AKA statement. Of course, the notary must use a "preponderance of the evidence" to be reasonably sure that the person is who they say they attesting to be.

Reply by Melanea/FL on 6/10/05 3:11pm
Msg #43843

That makes sense (n/k/a) but I will follow your advise and next time it happens I will contact the lender.

Thanks Paw!!

Reply by Terri_CA on 6/10/05 4:30pm
Msg #43868

Paul, I was refering to what someone had written, that with a Marriage License etc., they would "tie" in the correct name. I believe that was someone from "FL" therefore, I was using that "Unlike Florida" California notaries, can't even use "preponderence" of evidence.

I know that our certificate wording states "proved to me on the basis of satisfactory evidence" however, the "evidence" that can be used is specifically called out in our California notary Handbook. I, do believe though that each Notary is responsible for his/her own actions and if that notary wants to accept something that to them is satisfactory evidence and has all the elements required, it's up to them. They have to defend themselves, not me

Terri
Lancaster, CA

Reply by DM_FL on 6/10/05 5:11pm
Msg #43873

What about this scenario?

The borrower id has John Doe, but all docs have John D. Doe Sr. Would an aka signature work in this situation?

Thanks

Reply by PAW_Fl on 6/10/05 6:05pm
Msg #43878

From my conversations with the SOS, our job is to identify the signer with reasonable assurance that they are who they say they are. We must start with the mandated ID requirements as listed in the statutes. However, there are variances to names, and the SOS is well aware of that. So "strict adherence" isn't always necessary, but you must be comfortable and satisfied that the signers are who they are, based on the mandatory ID plus supporting documentation.

In the scenario you describe (ID = John Doe, docs = John D. Doe Sr.) I would look for lots of valid proof of the "senior" aspect. We run into the "Sr" problem a lot, because typically, men become "senior" well after their ID's are created. You probably could get away with using the "aka" form, but I really reserve that for special circumstances, and being a "Sr" or "Jr" isn't one of them. They really should have ID that matches whatever is already on title.

I just wish LO's, brokers and processors would simply ask the borrowers, "What's on your ID?". It would save a lot of grief, aggravation, and possibly salvage a signing, if the ID issue could be taken care of before we get there. (I always ask, "What's on your ID?" when I confirm the appointment. If there's an inconsistency, the title company is informed asap.)

Reply by DM_FL on 6/10/05 8:23pm
Msg #43895

Thanks PAW_Fl, but what about the missing "D". Would an aka signature be ok where the id is missing the middle name/or intial altogether but the docs have a middle initial listed?

Reply by PAW_Fl on 6/11/05 6:25am
Msg #43929

Again, depending on the circumstances whether or not I would use the "aka" form of a certificate. It is really the responsibility of the borrower/signer to have proper ID. With loans, in particular, I am not as forgiving in allowing for name variances from ID as I would in some other documents. A missing initial on an ID, but on a document, especially a deed or mortgage, is a red flag. You need to use your best judgment when applying the laws and practices as outlined in the statutes and Governor's manual. I can't (and won't) give you a blanket approval or disapproval on using the "aka" format. <Standard non-attorney disclaimer goes here.>

Reply by Becca/Fl on 6/10/05 5:29pm
Msg #43876

I never used the word "tie" my dear, you did. Are you sure you read my post?

Reply by melanea/fl on 6/10/05 6:17pm
Msg #43880

Thank you all for your answers, specially the Florida people. I feel better prepared if this presents itself again.