Posted by Ernest_CT on 6/20/05 9:46pm
Msg #46326

(sigh) Another "You're not going to believe this" post.

Over the weekend I did a signing for a new-to-me signing service. They required faxbacks, of course. On more than one form was
"State of Connecticut, MyCounty County, ss: "
so I filled in TheBorrowerCity after the "ss:".

Today the QC person asked me if the docs had been signined in TheBorrowerCity County. "No," I patiently explained, "they were signed in MyCounty County." "Then why does it say 'TheBorrowerCity County' ", she asked. (Huh?! I went racing for the docs.) "No, it says 'State of Connecticut, MyCounty County, ss: TheBorrower'sCity' ", I reply. She claimed that no other notary had ever written anything after "ss:". I told her that "ss" stands for "silicet", and did my best to educate her, but ....

It worries me that this lady is doing QC for a signing service! QC, as in "Quality Control". Am I being a pompous ass? Am I the only one who puts the city (town) name after the "ss:"? No, these are not rhetorical questions.

Reply by Julie-Mi on 6/20/05 10:17pm
Msg #46330

I wouldn't say you were a pompous ass, but you DO NOT put the city in the venue.

I've been in this business since 1983 and never ever have I seen the city there.

To open another can of worms, with your theory, would you use the mailing address city or the legal description city? Out in the townships where I live, it could say Julie Township, MI in the legal description, but the mailing address city could be Lawrence, MI. See my point?

If I was in quality control, I'd be calling you.

Sorry, if this offends, but YOU did ask!

Reply by Ernest_CT on 6/20/05 10:35pm
Msg #46338

I'm never offended when someone ...

... gives an honest answer to a question for which I solicited honest answers. Thank you for your post!

Yes, I see your point. In what you describe as my theory, I would put the city name where the signing took place. Not being a smart-aleck, but CT doesn't have townships. There are villages which are not incorporated towns; Mystic, for example, is half in Groton, half in Stonington. If I were signing in either the Groton or Stonington part of Mystic, I would still use "Mystic" as the specific location within New London County. You could, of course, make a case for "ss: Groton" if you were signing West of the Mystic River.

I'm still soliciting input.

Reply by CarolynCO on 6/21/05 6:50am
Msg #46411

Re: Not true - Julie

**but you DO NOT put the city in the venue.**

In Colorado, if you have cities that are also counties, you would put both, i.e., City and County of Denver; City and County of Broomfield.

Reply by Julie-MI on 6/21/05 7:27am
Msg #46423

I hope this posts in the right spot Carolyn CO

I NEVER get involved in another state's business.

I was responding to a question in general terms, and it turns out CT may have a different procedure than the rest of the country. Looks like CO may have a different policy as well.

I didn't think I needed to clarify this as I list my state when I respond to posts.

To go a bit further, I live in Macomb Township in Macomb County and if I do a closing in my own township or one in Oakland Township in Oakland County, I still would not do it the way you do in CO.

Too many things are state specific, and I responded to the question in general terms.

Reply by CarolynCO on 6/21/05 7:35am
Msg #46424

Re: I hope this posts in the right spot Carolyn CO

No offense taken Julie. Every state has different laws and that is why it becomes so difficult when posting/responding to posts. Many posts are answered with incorrect or misleading info when it comes to a different state, and that is why it is so important not to take anything written in these forums as gospel.

Reply by BarbaraL_CA on 6/20/05 10:18pm
Msg #46331

I've never put anything after ss - never any repercussions - never heard of anybody putting anything after it.

Reply by TAgey_VA on 6/20/05 10:20pm
Msg #46332

Ditto with BarbaraL CA

Reply by Ernest_CT on 6/20/05 10:36pm
Msg #46339

Thank you, BarbaraL and TAhey. n/m

Reply by Midwest on 6/20/05 10:40pm
Msg #46342

To Ernest Re: (sigh) Another "You're not going to believe...

Can you please define ss for me again? I've never filled it in either, but have never gotten a call on it. I once forgot to put the county and they caught that.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 6/20/05 10:53pm
Msg #46351

Re: To Ernest Re: (sigh) Another "You're not going to believe...

Immediately following the venue, you will sometimes see the abbreviation SS printed.
It designates an abbreviation for the Latin word scilicet (pronounced sila set) which means "namely" or "in particular"

Reply by Ernest_CT on 6/20/05 10:55pm
Msg #46353

Sure! In this context, "ss" stands for ...

... "scilicet". It is pronounced "sill a set"; I'm guessing that's why it is abbreviated "ss" instead of "sc". The word comes from Latin (what a surprise).

Quoting from page 25 of the CT Notary Public Manual:
"A. The ss., is an abbreviation of the Latin word 'scilicet", meaning 'namely', or more particularly the exact location or the designated particular place within a city and/or county where the official notarial act was performed."

A search in the household dictionary (and on the Web) also produced "... to wit, namely", "... that is to say; namely", and so on.

It will be fascinating to hear what HisHughness, PAW, and CaliNotary have to say.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 6/21/05 6:04am
Msg #46404

Re: Sure! In this context, "ss" stands for ...

Okay, so I'll guess I'll add my 2¢ worth too, though I think the topic has been thoroughly discussed:


The correct way to write the venue (understand that this is textually formatted here but graphically done on the document) is:


State of ______________ }
} SS:
County of _____________}


Which would read as "State of __________, particularly in the County of ______________".

Of course, if the venue is reduced to a single line, the "SS:" ends up at the end like:

State of _________________ ________________ County | SS:

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 6/20/05 10:48pm
Msg #46347

Let's see if I can explain this right!

The SS is always AFTER the venue, so you needn't put anything after the venue.
As far as putting the city in with the venue, some certificates do have a space for the city.

According to the Notary Public Handbook, Principles, Practices and Cases by Alfred Piombino, recognized as an authority on notary law the venue refers to the geographical place - consisting of state, county and city/town/village - the municipality is optional, unless specifically required by law.

So, putting the city where the notarization takes place is OK - but you said you put the borrowers city not the city where the notarization took place, so that should not have been in the venue as the venue is where the notarization is taking place.


The CT handbook also states:

Q. What does the SS., in the venue of a notarial certificate mean?
A. The SS., is an abbreviation of the Latin word “scilicet,” meaning “namely,” or more particularly the exact location or the designated particular place within a city and/or county where the official notarial act was performed.


I never put the city in the venue, but if I did it would be the city where I was notarizing not the borrowers city.

A lot of forms will have the SS after the venue.

Reply by John_NorCal on 6/20/05 10:52pm
Msg #46349

Our CA certs have County of__________. That is all that I have ever written in, the county where the signing was taking place.

Reply by Midwest on 6/20/05 10:52pm
Msg #46350

Does that mean leave it blank for fill it in? Or case by case basis. Or ask the SS/TC what they want? I know that the venue is where you are notarizing, not where the borrower lives, or even the county you are commisioned in.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 6/20/05 10:58pm
Msg #46357

You ALWAYS fill in the venue - state and county where notarization takes place.

Reply by Ernest_CT on 6/20/05 11:11pm
Msg #46363

Thanks, Sylvia, for your insight!

As always, you've given us a great resource!

I'm sorry, but one small detail of your 10:48 post is incorrect. In my post, I said "'State of Connecticut, MyCounty County, ss: TheBorrower'sCity". The signing took place in the same county in which I live ("MyCounty"), and in the town in which the borrowers reside ("TheBorrower'sCity"). I always use the location where the signing actually takes place in the notarial block.

I always check the city/town name. (One lender has a habit of putting the wrong town name in place of the name of a certain city near me! At least they're consistant.) Unless I am absolutely sure of the county, I ask the the borrower "We're in CountyName County, aren't we?"

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 6/20/05 11:20pm
Msg #46365

Re: Thanks, Sylvia, for your insight!

Ah - when you said Borrowers city, I thought maybe you had met the borrower in your county etc, and the Borrowers city was different than where you were doing the notarization.


Yes, I often have to ask the borrower which county we are in, when I cover 4 counties I sometimes forget which county I am in when I am at the table

Reply by HisHughness on 6/20/05 11:28pm
Msg #46368

Re: Thanks, Sylvia, for your insight!

Sylvia laments:

***Yes, I often have to ask the borrower which county we are in, when I cover 4 counties I sometimes forget which county I am in when I am at the table***

I understand, Syl. I have a similar problem. Sometimes when I come home on Saturday nights I forget which house I live in.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 6/21/05 12:25am
Msg #46382

Re: Thanks, Sylvia, for your insight! - Hugh

Please do not call me Syl! I hate it!

My name is Sylvia!!!

Reply by HisHughness on 6/21/05 8:12am
Msg #46432

Re: Thanks, Sylvia, for your insight! - Hugh

SylVIA explodes:

***Please do not call me Syl! I hate it!

My name is Sylvia!!!***

Gee, and I thought I was doing so well by not yielding to the temptation to say anything like, maybe, Window Syl.

Reply by HisHughness on 6/20/05 11:24pm
Msg #46366

Scilicet, as has been pointed out, indicates that the text is moving from the general (automobiles) to the particular (BarryFL's 1988 Nova that he owes me the title to). It is roughly equivalent to "e.g." (general reference followed by exemplar reference).

It has always made more sense to me that the "ss" would be inserted in this fashion: State of Ignorance ss County of Barry, than the typical State of Ignorance County of Barry ss. It makes more sense to me because you move from the state (general) to the county (particular), and ...

With regard to the venue: Municipalities and similar governmental units typically are not part venue considerations in either civil or criminal actions. I say that with one big caveat: If a municipal ordinance is involved, then the municipality may be the appropriate venue. States and counties, on the other hand, are an integral part of venue considerations in most jurisdictions, and thus are designatged when appropriate. Kill someone in Barryshead County, City of Uppissass, and you can be tried anywhere in the county; the municipality is irrelevant to determining the venue for trial. The same holds true for civil actions: Commit a tort in Smawlbawls, Barrisgottam County, and you can be sued anywhere in the county, not just in Smawlbawls. The city is immaterial.

Hope this helps. Like all lawyers, I always attempt to contribute to the confusion. Keeps the cash registers ringing in law offices around the world.

Reply by Ernest_CT on 6/20/05 11:38pm
Msg #46371

Umm, Your Hughness, ...

... thank you for your obfuscation, as usual. Barry, however, may not ... umm ... never mind.

So what about putting the town/city after the "ss:"? In a lot of cases, there really IS a colon!

Reply by HisHughness on 6/20/05 11:51pm
Msg #46374

Re: Umm, Your Hughness, ...

Ernest timorously queries:

***So what about putting the town/city after the "ss:"? In a lot of cases, there really IS a colon!***

It'll go there, and if that is where the "ss" is, if you must use it, it probably belongs there, not somewhere else. I tend to adopt a minimalist attitude: If it isn't inserted, it isn't going to ruffle anybody, since almost nobody knows what the "ss" is far anyway. Much like "(seal)" after the signature on the note. I knew that a seal added additional weight and formality to the signature, but what the ramifications of that were I couldn't recall. And I couldn't find it in my limited remaining law library.

The Latin aphorism for my approach is: If it ain'tum broke, don'tum fixum.

Reply by Ernest_CT on 6/20/05 11:58pm
Msg #46376

Thank you! n/m

Reply by Anonymous on 6/21/05 12:06am
Msg #46379

Re: Umm, Your Hughness, ...

You disappointed me your hughness...was just waiting with baited breathe for your response to: ***In a lot of cases, there really IS a colon***

Would have betted my stamp you would have taken off with that one. Guess it's Jay Leno tonight instead.

Reply by Ernest_CT on 6/21/05 12:27am
Msg #46383

Since you brought it up to tempt HisHughness, ...

... I'm going to beat him to the punch. Just what is it you use to bait your breath? That reminds me of the cat who ate Limburger and sat by the mousehole with baited breath.

Any other wordplay in which you'd care to indulge?

Reply by Ernest_CT on 6/21/05 12:32am
Msg #46384

(The reason for the harassment is ...

... that held breath is "bated breath", as in "abated". Fish are caught with baited hooks.)

Sorry, folks. (Well, maybe.) Blame it on not being able to make linguistic jokes at signings?r

Reply by Gerry_VT on 6/21/05 8:09am
Msg #46430

Re: Umm, Your Hughness, ...

Hugh wrote:

". . . Much like "(seal)" after the signature on the note. I knew that a seal added additional weight and formality to the signature, but what the ramifications of that were I couldn't recall. And I couldn't find it in my limited remaining law library."

I know that seals used to be mandatory for the private individuals who executed real estate deeds in the olden days. I don't know which states private steals are still mandatory, if any. I do no that Vermont still has a law on the books about private seals, which reads:

[Title 1 Chapter 3] § 134. -Private

When the private seal of a person or corporation is required on an instrument or writing to make such instrument or writing legal and valid such seal shall consist of an impression as provided in section 133 of this title or of a wafer, wax or other adhesive substance affixed thereto or of a paper or other similar substance affixed thereto or the word "seal" or the letters "L.S." opposite the signature.

[ Section 133 specifies the seals for government officials, including notaries.]

So at least in Vermont, the word "Seal" after the signature on the note *is* the seal of the private person who signed the note.

I can't wait to sign a deed in Vermont as the grantor; I'll pull out my stick of sealing wax and my book of matches and watch the notary's jaw hit the table.

Reply by HisHughness on 6/21/05 8:46am
Msg #46440

Re: Umm, Your Hughness, ...

The "(seal)", or l.s. (the abbreviation for the Latin 'locus sigili', the place of the seal) after a signature is indeed the last remaining vestige of the private seal. The question was, what is the effect of a signature under seal?

I think we finally resolved, probably with PAW's input, that a signature under seal extends the statute of limitations for bringing an action on the document in question.

Reply by Barry/FL on 6/21/05 1:25am
Msg #46393

Actually, ss is the contraction for scilicet. For the most part, roughly translated, it means "statement of the venue." I have seen the State and the County as requirements, but nothing further to which I am aware. Then again, I do not know the laws of every state. I believe the statement of the venue is for where the document is actually being signed in this case.

Reply by Bobbi in CT on 6/21/05 7:14am
Msg #46416

Older than dirt for SS and QC youngsters ...

Connecticut has a long-standing TRADITION, going back to the FIRST Notary Public on these shores (New Haven, CT ... who beat a hasty retreat to England after investigations into his actions).

State of Connecticut:
County of Middlesex: ss. East Haddam

TRADITION ... which you will see on all law-firm and in-state bank prepared documents, is that the TOWN where the signing occurred is written after ss. (Narrows down the venue when trying to locate Notary, signer or witnesses; particularly important if document is contested and for wills.) Key word "TOWN," meaning one of Connecticut's 169 Towns, not the additional villages, boroughs, postal districts, lake districts, separate tax districts, etc. that the state also has.

Is the town required? Not really; over time it slowly disappeared because other states don't require it. However, lawyers, local bankers, Courts (Judges), those educated in paralegal classes and educated by lawyers, still follow the tradition. Some reviewers in-state would say, "The venue is incomplete. You did not include the town where the signing occurred."

For those not in CT, I'll give you a couple of out-of-state title expert technical errors that result in signing at the borrower's home where the Town of signing in the notarization block venue does NOT matching the Town the lender/document preparer state the home is in:

"Legal" Residence on all documents: Cherry Swamp Road, Moodus
Town for venue: East Haddam (loan processor REQUIRED the use of the post office that the mail is sent through, not town property is located in). Property located in the Town of East Haddam, served through the Moodus post office.

Residence: Hadlyme
Town for venue: depending on WHERE you are on the road, the residence could be in the TOWN of East Haddam or Lyme (Hadlyme is a postal district serving a large area)
For more fun: The residence phone exchange is for Deep River (which is on the opposite side of the Connecticut River)

Residence: Lake Hayward, Colchester (phone service also a Colchester exchange)
Town of venue: East Haddam ... which is in Middlesex County, but the postal district is in New London County = Loan processor required that the documents remain : East Haddam, New London County (because the zip code for the post office that serves that area came up on the computer as "Colchester, New London County").

Last out-of-state "title expert" told me in no uncertain terms: "East Haddam is in the County of New London. Do NOT change any of the documents. I am a title expert and you are wrong." Lord save me -- hundreds of years of family living in this East Haddam, serving on Town boards and commissions, preparing deeds, doing title searches and Land Records recordings, making loans and WE NEVER knew where we lived. How did we ever find our way home each night?

Reply by Gerry_VT on 6/21/05 8:37am
Msg #46438

Re: Older than dirt for SS and QC youngsters ...

I grew up in Connecticut, although I no longer live there. I know that on October 1, 1960, Connecticut abolished county government (see Chapter 76 Sec. 6-2a of the CT statutes). The counties still exist as geographical locations; they just don't perform any government functions. Perhaps this, in addition to the tradition mentioned by Bobbi, influenced the practice of adding the town to the venue.

Reply by Anonymous on 10/11/05 1:18am
Msg #69826

Re: Older than dirt for SS and QC youngsters ...

Question Bobbi in CT - are you an attorney? because most of your letter is alot of "hype" and misinformation. You are giving legal advise and title expert advise. just curious as to what you actually do? are you a title company employee expert? an attorney? a settlement agent? or just a know it all notary that again tries to pretend she is an attorney. just curious, not trying to be disrespectful or sarcastic....but I honestly am curious. As I read through many of these postings you seem to have much time on your hands to put input.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 10/25/07 12:01am
Msg #218181

It is beneath Bobbi to reply, so I will.

One of the many improvements that Harry made in the Forum was to remove the capability to Post anonymously. I suspect that Posts such as this have a lot to do with that policy change.

Anyone who has had the good fortune to talk with Bobbi has been helped by her. She is a very knowledgeable Notary Public, as well as having other qualifications for weighing in on the topic of venue specification. To respect her privacy, I will not go into detail.

Cast aspersions elsewhere, coward.

Reply by Kevin Ahern on 6/22/05 5:27am
Msg #46724

I have been completing acknowledgements on mortgages and other documents for 20 years as part of a law practice. I have always included the city/town identification after the "ss",
and have never had a problem.

Reply by MelissaCT on 12/14/06 2:17pm
Msg #165947

Per CT handbook...

Here’s a venue example found in Connecticut’s online notary manual:

FORM OF ACKNOWLEDGMENT FOR INDIVIDUAL:
State of Connecticut
County of __________________ ss. (Town/City)

In this usage, the scilicet (remember, it means “in particular” or “more specifically”) indicates
that the notary should further specify the venue by including the town or city name following the county name.

We found this example on a Florida certificate for an acknowledgment:

State of Florida
County of ________________ s.s.

This usage is loosely translated, “County of (name of the county) in particular.” The notary simply fills-in the name of the county where the notarial act actually occurred.

The key to properly dealing with the s.s. notation is, always indicate the venue with the standard required information of state and county. Then, decide whether the s.s. notation on the certificate is requiring additional information such as the town or city, or whether the s.s. is simply a formality in the structure of the venue that you have already satisfied by noting the county name.