Posted by Slarty_FL on 3/12/05 10:08am
Msg #25107

Giving up RTC?

I had a signing last night that wasn't quite a nightmare, but was pretty close. Interest rate was not what was quoted to the borrowers, payment info was not what was quoted to the borrowers, etc., etc. Still, we got through it all with me reassuring them that they always had the RTC to fall back on.

But one of the documents in there (one that I had to notarize no less) was one I hadn't seen before. It actually reads "I/We have received two copies of the Recission Notice, and acknowledge that said Recission Notice was explained to me/us by [title company] and signed by me/us in error to cancel loan. We/Us choose not to rescind loan and wish to refinance as documents were signed on 3-11-05 with a full understanding of all the terms and conditions of said loan."

Initially, I thought this may have covered a previous recission notice, and that since the document is dated 3-11-05, they still have their RTC from this signing because it would be dated after this document and so supercede it. But given all the other problems with this package, I started second guessing myself.

Can this document invalidate their RTC from this signing? I would feel awful nursing them through this signing with the promise of an RTC, only to find that I actually notarized the document wherein they gave up their RTC.

Docs are due to be dropped in FedEx Monday morning. Rapid feedback appreciated!!!

Reply by Bobbi in CT on 3/12/05 10:20am
Msg #25110

In a word, "No."

Not an attorney. Not giving legal advice and not a "legal" opinion.

Right to cancel is federal law. There are only a few limited conditions where a homeowner refinancing his/her personal residence can waive the right to cancel. Doesn't sound like this is one.

My PERSONAL guess: Were there a lot of lien, foreclosure, credit card payoffs of this loan? Lender is using this form as a way to disburse funds (pay off existing creditors) immediately, rather than waiting three full business days. Could be so close on "can't afford any cash out" that the lender has to get the checks out or the borrower can't go through with the loan; i.e., doesn't have cash to bring to the table and will exceed loan-to-value limit for a good secondary market sale.

Again NOT legal opinion, just a guess at what I have seen tried over the years.

Bottom line: If the borrower has a problem with this loan, it will be so "bad" his/her personal attorney will weigh in the waiving the right to cancel issue - working in the borrower/client's best interests, not the lenders.

You are not an attorney. The borrower willing signed the form without your advice or opinion. Just send the package back.

Reply by Stephen/VA on 3/12/05 10:24am
Msg #25113

Re: In a word, "No."

It looks like they previously accidentally signed the RTC on the "I wish to cancel line." and sent it in. The previous notary didn't catch it or something like that. This next package is being signed with a form saying "Woops we didn't *really* mean to sign this the first time."

Reply by Stephen/VA on 3/12/05 10:25am
Msg #25114

Re: In a word, "No."

Regardless, it's not the notaries job to figure this out.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/12/05 12:04pm
Msg #25124

Re: In a word, "No."

No, this company always puts this document in their packages - it is from the title company not the lender. As I said I just point it out to the borrowers and let them know if they cancel their loan in error that just use that document and have it notarized.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/12/05 11:58am
Msg #25122

I only have one company that includes that document.

I just point the doc out to the borrowers, and tell them that if they cancel their loan in error, then they will sign that document and have it notarized and sent to the title company.

You don't do anything with this doc at all and the borrowers do not sign it.

Reply by Slarty_FL on 3/12/05 12:14pm
Msg #25127

Well, not knowing that, they signed and I notarized. Should I include in the package anyway?

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/12/05 12:19pm
Msg #25128

If this is the company I am thinking about, they e-mailed you the docs in pdf format?
If this is so, just print out that one page again and include it in the package going back.

If this isn't the company I am thinking of, and they overnighted the docs, then just leave that one out of the package.

Reply by CaliNotary on 3/12/05 12:24pm
Msg #25130

You're really thinking about removing a page from the documents you were sent and not returning it? What on earth makes you think you have the authority to do that?

If you can read the page, the borrower can read the page. Your job is to have it signed and notarized if necessary, period. It is not our place as notaries or signing agents to do anything beyond that.

Do you really want to be responsible for the loan not closing? It's a definite possibility if you butt in and try to decide which documents really aren't needed after all. Unless you're willing to find yourself on the wrong end of a lawsuit, I'd strongly suggest you stop this way of thinking and just do what you were hired to do.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/12/05 1:13pm
Msg #25133

I have worked with this company for several years, this is the way I have always handled it with this particular document.

This document is only to be signed by the borrowers and sent back if they inadvertently sign and return the RTC.
Maybe when you have more experience you will know more about what docs are not required.

If the docs were e-mailed, then Slarty can just print that one page out again, and return it unsigned and unnotarized.

Look at this scenario:

Slarty sends the doc back signed and notarized. It states that they do want the loan, that they signed the RTC in error.

After Slarty left the signing, they decide to use the RTc and cancel the loan, so they fax over the signed RTC. Monday or Tuesday morning - when the company gets the package from Slarty, there is the signed and notarized document saying they inadvertently signed the RTC and still want the loan.
Obviously the company is going to take this as a go ahead to fund the loan, even though the borrowers do not want it. you know who's butt is going to be on the line for this? Slarty's!


Before you know all the facts, do not tell me how to do my job!

Reply by Bobbi in CT on 3/12/05 2:03pm
Msg #25141

Sylvia, Curiosity question ...

I have never seen this document in any of my CT packages.

Does the lender or title company include instructions anywhere in the package telling someone that this form is not to be signed at the table, a blank is returned to title company, and the borrower keeps a blank OR borrower gets a blank in case s/he needs it.

Curious, because as a non-industry standard form, you would think there would be instructions with it.

Curious, is this because After the borrower states "I do not like this deal," "I changed my mind," "I am canceling this loan," and faxes the RTC, the loan officer will continue to pressure borrower to go through with the loan?

Sounds to me like something Ameriquest would add right after the two-year prepayment penalty clause that the borrower was told 1) they would not have or 2) it would be only one year.

Reply by SyLVIA_fl on 3/12/05 2:20pm
Msg #25144

Re: Sylvia, Curiosity question ...

No, there are no instructions regarding it whatsoever, and I only have one title company I work for who includes this with their title docs - they have some other weird ones too.

Reply by Slarty_FL on 3/12/05 3:39pm
Msg #25153

Re: Sylvia, Curiosity question ...

Exactly. There were no instructions whatsoever.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/12/05 3:53pm
Msg #25156

Re: Sylvia, Curiosity question ...

Slarty
Click on my link to go to my profile and give me a call please

Reply by Ninna Mantooth-Lopez on 3/12/05 6:58pm
Msg #25181

Have to agree with Sylvia on this one....

If I were to run across this document in a package... and thus far, I haven't... I would definately take exception to having the borrower sign it. In fact, if I had run into it prior to reading this thread... I would have placed a post-it note on the document that "the borrowers have not inadvertantly signed to cancel... but if this does happen, an extra copy has been left with them for future use if needed".

Personally, I think the title company is getting alot of rtc's back where the borrower(s) are signing the cancellation section of the rtc as opposed to the "I've received my two copies, etc., etc." section. Thus, the title company has come up with something that will somehow rectify it with the lender.

Reply by CaliNotary on 3/12/05 7:14pm
Msg #25183

Chill out Sylvia, I wasn't even responding to your post and I certainly wasn't telling you how to do your job. And this is a message board. The only facts that we can respond to is what was posted here. Besides, I was speaking in more general terms, not specifically to this situation.

I still stand by my original statement. It's fine to check with the signing service or lender beforehand or after the fact if the document doesn't make sense to us, but I would not have one of their documents signed and notarized and then make the unilateral decision that it didn't need to be returned after all.

Nor would I allow the responses on this board to be my justification for possibly screwing up somebody's loan. It doesn't mean that they're necessarily wrong or right, but it's hardly going to be an adequate defense if the title company asks why I decided to remove some docs from the package.

Question. If this particular document was signed and notarized on the 11th of the month, then the borrower submitted a RTC dated the 13th of the month, would that overrule the first document?

Reply by PAW_Fl on 3/12/05 1:16pm
Msg #25134

I've seen these before and the first time I questioned it too. It is to be used in case the borrowers mistakenly cancel their loan. This document then allows them to rescind their request to rescind.

Just skip over it, unless the borrower mistakenly signs in the "cancel" box on the "original - lender" copy. (Can't use the borrower's copies since it explicitly states "borrower's copy".)

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/12/05 2:23pm
Msg #25145

Hmm Paul, you must have seen this form in a different company's package, The ones I have seen it in. The ones I have there is only one RTC in the package and I have to make sure I prit out enough copies for all concerned.

Reply by Happy_in_Fl on 3/12/05 9:04pm
Msg #25190

Re: Giving up RTC? Another Point Please.? Sylvia.

If you receive an e-Mail package, or even over night pkg., and say there are only two RTC's- one His and one Hers-; and in the package for the Borrower there are their copies- do you print out additional copies- without S/S or Title Company telling you to make additional copies?

(Of course there have been times there were 4 to 6 RTC in the signing package, and same number left with Borrower in their package.)

I've had several of the same subject forms just recently- did not require any "Notorizing"- and I simply returned them in Package not signed.

Borrowers did both initial bottom of the page, that they at least saw it, as I have them do with every document, that does not have a requirement for their signature. (so the world knows they did view the doc.)

But, I like your point Sylvia, IF the borrowers signed RTC in wrong place, then by their signing the other ones, they un-do the mistake. Very interesting- I learned something again-- Thank You Sylvia.!!

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/12/05 9:47pm
Msg #25202

Re: Giving up RTC? Another Point Please.? Sylvia.

I comply with RESPA laws that say that each person on title should receive two copies each. If there are not enough, I will make the photocopies. They are signing that they are receiving two copies each!

Of course, if they are e-mail docs I naturally print out enough copies.

Reply by DebbieNJ on 3/13/05 7:08am
Msg #25233

Re: Giving up RTC? Another Point Please.? Sylvia.

Aren't they already getting the 2 copies they acknowledged getting in the borrower's copy?

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/13/05 9:48am
Msg #25237

Re: Giving up RTC? Another Point Please.? Sylvia.

If there are enough copies in the borrowers copies, then obviously I don't make copies.
But, many a time, there are not enough copies in the borrowers copies.
I take the borrowers copies of the RTC out and put them with the docs they are signing, so that when I get to the RTC I can hand them their copies so they can see they are getting two copies each.

Reply by Bobbi in CT on 3/13/05 9:57am
Msg #25240

Same as Sylvia ...

RTC states each borrower is getting two copies.
If not enough in the borrowers' set, I make extra copies.
I put the RTCs on the Top of the borrower package - and have each borrower sign his/her RTC exactly as signing for the original that is being returned to the lender.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 3/12/05 9:22pm
Msg #25194

Same title co. Different lenders.