Posted by FB/CA on 3/15/05 5:23pm
Msg #25629

NEWBIES BEWARE: Don't get bullied

Something happened that I want to share with the newbies out there so you don't get bullied into breaking the law...
Here's what happened:

I got a phone call from a Title Company. The title/escrow officer told me that the county recorder had rejected a grant deed that I notarized in December and whether I could please send in a "re-acknowledgment" so they could resubmit it.

Now, once I got to the bottom of what they wanted, here's the situation:

1) The title company had included the incorrect property description with the original grant deed. This is why the deed was rejected. There was nothing wrong with the original notarization.

2) They wanted to swap out the incorrect description with the correct description and resubmit it with a loose acknowledgment from me. The sellers who had signed the grant deed are unreachable (on vacation).

3) When I explained I could not fulfill the request, the title officer tried to convince me that I could, offered to transfer me to his manager, and even said that the county clerk's office had "okayed" this "quick fix."

NEWBIES-- Do NOT let title officers bully or cajole you into sending loose acknowledgments in the mail... if I had complied with their requests, I would basically be creating a lie... certifying that the "correct" property description was seen by the original signers when in fact it had not been there at our signing.

Now, they might try to convince you that "no harm, no foul" is done because chances are that the signers would have no problem with a property description (which I'm sure they didn't read closely anyways) getting switched for the CORRECT description.... but it is STILL incorrect to help out the title officer in this way. They want to fix their error and cover their backs, and don't mind asking you to compromise your commission to fix it fast rather than fix it the hard way. (the hard way is to track these signers down and have them sign before a notary).

Here's what I had to say to finally have him back down:

"Listen, I am a law student and will be taking the Bar in a couple of years. I have to follow the letter of the law when I notarize documents; if I have a record that shows I helped commit fraud or bent the rules as a notary, that probably wouldn't look too good and it could cost me my future Bar membership. Can you understand where I'm coming from?"

His response, "Yeah, I understand"

I continued, "Now, we both know what you are asking me to do is TECHNICALLY incorrect, right?"

His response, "Well, my manager says it's done all the time."

My response to that, "Would your manager be willing to put this request in *writing*? Would he fax me a signed, WRITTEN request indicating he wants me to re-acknowlege a grant deed without seeing the signers, and that he plans to swap out a property description with one not present at the signing?"

Answer, "Probably not."

At this point I just want to get off the phone and quit wasting my time, "Well, I'm sure this has happened more than once in the history of escrow closings and I'm sure there is SOME way to fix this that doesn't require me to break the rules... is there an alternative solution?"

He found another solution, albeit one that would make more work for them. But, since this was their mistake and not mine, I don't feel bad about leaving them in a lurch.

As a law student, I read cases every day where someone makes a bad decision thinking it will never come back to haunt them... and it does.

Protect yourselves, know the law, and be assertive (but professional) when someone tries to bully you.

(p.s. I called the Secretary of State to let them know what happened, and they verified I did the right thing)

-Flavia Berys, CA http://www.berys.com/notary

Reply by Korey Humphreys on 3/15/05 5:30pm
Msg #25633

Good Alert! Newbies must read!! n/m

Reply by ColleenCA on 3/15/05 6:23pm
Msg #25647

I can't believe they actually thought they would get away with it! Thanks for the info.

Reply by BeccaWI on 3/15/05 6:44pm
Msg #25657

Hi!

Now I have a silly question! I am very,very new at this. When you send an acknowledgement, do you attach it to another form or do you send it along with? I am just trying to verify what "loose" means! I think it has been a long day, ugh!

Reply by MI_Notary on 3/15/05 6:56pm
Msg #25659

Thank you for this information. As a paralegal I completely agree with you on this. Although I have never had this type of situation come up, I have had a situation where I was sent a document to notarize, saying I forgot to notarize it (which could have happened as I am not perfect). However, the ink used was a different color than what they require me to use and also didn't match that of what was in my journal, so I knew I did not witness the document being signed. Come to find out the document was from a loan packet they sent directly to the borrowers previously and after they had forgotten to put that document in my loan closing packet they pulled the signed document from the old set of documents and sent it to me to notarize. Well, I did notarize it (w/an attached acknowledgment) but only after I went to the borrower's home and verified they had signed it. I also used the date of acknowledgment when notarizing it, not the date of the closing.

Reply by Julie-MI on 3/15/05 8:02pm
Msg #25669

Well MI_Notary I hope they company paid you for the second trip.

Reply by MI_Notary on 3/16/05 7:29am
Msg #25742

Unfortunately no. The company had just started sending me a lot of business and I was traveling to that area for dinner with my inlaws, so being that it was on my way I did not charge another trip fee. With the business they were sending and the fact that I was new with them, I didn't want to "rock" the boat. I did discuss it with the manager and explained what had happened and that I was not willing to just notarize it since I did not witness it. It wasn't until I got to the borrower's home that I learned it was from a previous packet. However, I would probably address it (fee wise) differently now, given my long history with the company, etc.

Reply by Mysti_FL on 3/15/05 8:18pm
Msg #25670

Thanks for the information. I think this may have happened to me and since it was on my 1st or 2nd signing, I didn't know better and sent it.

In my case, I sent a refi pkg to the (I think) signing company that had contracted me. The gentleman called me after receiving the pkg and said I forgot to include an acknowledgement (although now I don't remember his exact words). He told me to send him a loose one. So, I made up one, instead of using one of the loose ones I had. The reason? When I asked him what it was an acknowledgment of and he told me, I typed that I was acknowledging that particular document. However, I now know it really didn't "cover me" and was incorrect.

Thanks for the lesson!
Mysti

Reply by Ted_MI on 3/15/05 8:41pm
Msg #25675

Re: the Bar Exam

FB,

Let me just tell you - the bar exam is an experience that you will never ever forget. I speak from experience. I took it in 1979. I must have been a glutton for punishment, as I also took the Florida Bar exam six months or so later.

Reply by MI_Notary on 3/16/05 7:31am
Msg #25743

Re: the Bar Exam

Ted_MI,

Are you an attorney in Michigan? If so, what part? I work at a law firm in Northern Michigan. Anyway, just curious.

Reply by Ted_MI on 3/17/05 7:28pm
Msg #26138

Re: the Bar Exam

To answer your question, sort of. I am in the northern suburbs of Detroit, in Troy. I use the phrase "sort of" as I was a licensed attorney from 1979 through 1999 and then as I really wasn't practicing law any more, I couldn't reconcile paying the $400 bucks or whatever it was to be a state bar member. So I just let my membership lapse. As I am sure you are aware, Michigan has an integrated bar.

So where are you in northern Michigan? And are you a paralegal?

Reply by erin_CenCal on 3/16/05 2:58am
Msg #25729

I too had a similar situation happen to me last night....
I was contracted to do mobile notary work (only) by a referral service last week. It was a reverse mortgage and I was to simply meet the lender's rep along with the borrower and notarize 4 documents. When I got there, I looked the documents over and they all looked fine except the last. It was the compliance agreement, and it had no notarial wording on it-just a place for my signature and expiration date. I expained to the rep that it did not have any notarial wording. She told me to just stamp my seal anyway. I told her that I could not affix my seal to anything that did not have the proper wording. I then took a loose jurat cert. and acknowledgment cert. out of my briefcase and asked her if she'd choose the correct form. She declined choosing a form and instructed me to just sign my name and put my comm. expiration date, and "that would be fine". I did as she instructed me to do.

Well, yesterday I get a call from the Title company, telling me that I forgot to put my seal on a document that needed a jurat. Well, they were talking about the compliance agreement. I explained that I did not "forget" to place my stamp, that I omitted it on purpose because of the lack of wording. She then asked if I would send a loose jurat cert. to her so the loan could fund. I politely told her that I would not, because it goes against my state's notary laws. End of conversation.

Around dinner time, I get a call from the rep who was at the signing with me. She tells me that I need to make this right or this poor man will not get his money, she said "I know that you have your rules and everything, but you need to do whatever you can do so this loan can fund." I told her I had done everything she instructed me to do, and I wish I could help, but I will not overnight a seperate jurat form, especially for someone whom I did not place under oath. Needless to say, I don't think she was very happy with my response.

I then called the company who contracted me for the work to let them know about these phone calls. They assured me that I did the right thing by not stamping something that did not have the wording, and not making the call as to which type of notarization this document needed. (Which I already knew, but it was good to have someone tell me that what I did was right.) I must say that I was blown away that there are people in this industry who think they can intimidate notaries into doing something illlegal, just so they don't have to admit fault or do the extra work. All of this to say, do not do something you know is wrong, even if it is a lender or T.O. telling you to do so! It will only get you in trouble.

Reply by Brenda Stone on 3/16/05 10:00am
Msg #25771

Bravo FB - Excellent Reading

The way I deal with notary bullies is to (1) Know my rules (2) Thank them for "the guidance" but advise that just to be on the safeside I need to run it past the SOS.

Reply by Happy_in_Fl on 3/16/05 3:19pm
Msg #25849

Try this one. Unbelievable-

9:30 pm- Just on way home from signing- Cell phone rings- Borrowers Mtg. Broker- (a Florida one- sad to say) "Would you please go back and leave the package of Docs, with Borrower so her husband can sign them, when back in town on (say Friday).

"What? What husband- there was no husband on the Docs!"

"Well the Son didn't want step dad to be involved in the refi., so we are trying to work around it."

So I find a suitable stopping place- call the S/S told them what transpired- No way would I leave Docs. for someone to sign, whom I did not see- nor put under Oath etc etc and especially when no husband was named.

Three days later made another trip- into a now hostile family environment- to have husband sign some added docs- because he had to be involved- (as Florida is a Spousal State)- So son is mad- Wife is torn between the two- husband is kinda mute- but passively signs- Soooo!!

Like Brenda said- Know your States requirements- and know what you can or cannot do for sure- and don't be BAMBOOZELLED!! (Now thats a word out of the distant past, Hey?)

Reply by PAW_Fl on 3/16/05 3:31pm
Msg #25850

Re: Try this one. Unbelievable-

Happy (and other FL NSA's). Florida isn't technically a "spousal" state, and then again it is, depending on the definition one wants to apply to the term. However, the following is true concerning spousal "rights" under FL law and the constitution:

Dower and curtesy have been abolished in Florida

Florida is not a community property state.

Florida does have homestead laws that are set out in Article X, Section 4 of the Florida Constitution. The homestead is exempt from forced sale except for the payment of taxes and assessments thereon and obligations contracted for the purchase, improvement or repair to the homestead owned by a natural person. Persons residing outside a municipality have the right to claim up to 160 contiguous acres of land and improvements. Persons residing within a municipality have the right to a homestead of up to 1/2 acre of contiguous land. This exemption for municipal homesteads is limited to the residence of the owner of the property or his family. These exemptions inure to the surviving spouse or heirs of the owner. The homestead is not subject to devise if the owner is survived by spouse or minor child except that the homestead may be devised to the owner's spouse if there is no minor child. The owner of the homestead must be joined by their spouse in the conveyance or mortgage of the homestead. If the property being conveyed is not the grantor's homestead, the deed should so state and include he location of the grantor's principal residence.

Reply by Happy_in_Fl on 3/16/05 4:33pm
Msg #25858

Thank you- Paul. Good words of Wisdom.

Allbeit- what really threw me was this persistant "Mortgage Broker"guy really thought that, I would and should go back and leave those Docs!!

No way, Hosea!