Posted by Anonymous on 5/2/05 1:58pm
Msg #35334

Cali... You're missing MaggieMae's point!

Maggie does say you can't charge for mileage, but believes if you choose to charge for mileage it needs to be reasonable and take into account what other businesses do!... Isn't an employer who compensates his employees for mileage a business??? Or is the employer a non-business which we should dismiss???

The employee referred too wanted it both ways... If I'm understanding you correctly, you're wanting it both ways too.

Since this is my business, I have to think like a business and know what other businesses are doing and what the laws and guidelines are of the State I live and the Federal government. I know what Postal Annex and UPS notaries are doing. (Don't shoot me, I know there's a difference from a loan signing agent and a notary, but people have the option of going to UPS or Postal Annex. Those businesses are just as willing to take someone's money as I am.--Some banks like Wells Fargo, have the borrower go out on their own and find someone to notarize their docs.) I know what I can claim as a deduction on my taxes. There is a whole heck of a lot of things to factor in.

I'm currently working with a title company that is giving me all their signings in my County (the title company is located in Colorado, I'm located in Southern Cal). Why? Because everything I've done to date has been picture perfect. I review the docs prior to getting to the closing and give them the heads up if there's even the slightest sign of a problem. (It's called paying attention to detail.) They've asked me to do a closing outside of my resident county and I quoted them a much higher price than what I've been charging because of the distance. They're paying it. A closing two blocks from my house has a much lower rate. In some cases that closing 2 blocks away can take as much time (if not longer) than the closing in the next county if the borrower is being a nit-pic!

I've developed a very nice working relationship with this title company and hope to do business with them for many years to come. For me, this isn't all about the money. I take pride in my work and the customer service I provide to the signing services, title companies, lenders and borrowers alike.

I've read postings where SAs are bashing the signing services. Hey! That's you're bread and butter there some months. When a SS comes on this message board, because you're basically anon to them people beat up on them and tell them they suck. Why do that?

I'm rambling here. People... Just wake up and smell the coffee. Because if you don't, I'll have your signings and you won't. And frankly, I don't have the time to cover the entire State of California on my own. (j/k)

Just one more thing to think about. If I hired an attorney whose fee was $300 per hour, I would fire him/her in a heartbeat if he/she charged me the $300 per hour rate to travel from his/her office to the courthouse. Why should a SA be compensated $50/hour to drive from point A to point B? And that's the impression some SAs posting on the message board are giving.

Reply by Anonymous on 5/2/05 2:00pm
Msg #35335

***Maggie does say you can't charge for mileage***

That should read: Maggie doesn't say you can't charge for mileage

Reply by PAW_Fl on 5/2/05 2:14pm
Msg #35341

>>> Just one more thing to think about. If I hired an attorney whose fee was $300 per hour, I would fire him/her in a heartbeat if he/she charged me the $300 per hour rate to travel from his/her office to the courthouse. Why should a SA be compensated $50/hour to drive from point A to point B? And that's the impression some SAs posting on the message board are giving. <<<

If your business model is based on time spent, including travel time, then that's how your fees are generated. If your business model is based on time spent, but a mileage fee that is added, then that's the way you charge. The choice is yours. ("You", "your" and "yours" is used in the non-personal, collective generic sense, and not specifically addressed to you personally.)

Some businesses, especially those who offer in-home or in-office service, charge total hours, including transit time.

Reply by MaggieMae_CA on 5/2/05 2:42pm
Msg #35347

Thank you Paul for weighing in on this. When I wrote my posting Saturday evening that's the point I was trying to make. Obviously, I didn't do a good enough job of making the point clear enough.

This profession we are in is very, very tricky. We're charging for a service and need to charge fees so we can make a living, yet be competitive. If we were to charge a set fee for a loan signing ($100 let's say for an even number) and did 10 closings a day in our own back yard, we'd be living high. For the most part, that's not the case. We're on the road (because that's the nature of our business) and need to be compensated for that time.

Modeling your business based on time spent is fine. Basing your business on time spent, plus mileage is fine. But when I read postings on fees and mileage, it appears to me that people want it both ways.

Reply by CaliNotary on 5/2/05 4:28pm
Msg #35362

"But when I read postings on fees and mileage, it appears to me that people want it both ways."

I have no idea what you mean by this. I have one fee schedule which I developed by using $1.25/mile. It's not set in stone based on the mileage though, I have also adjusted the fees for some cities based on the real time it will take to get there. I'm about 11 miles from West Hollywood, but on a good day it'll take me 30 minutes to get there, with bad traffic it can take an hour. Therfore I charge a higher fee for that city than I do for others that are the same distance away. What "both ways" are you talking about?

This whole argument seems to be based on semantics anyway. Ultimately, I think it's business suicide to charge only 40 cents per mile like ssnotary does. Whether that figure was arrived at by calculating the time spent driving or the distance covered or the price of tea in china doesn't matter. Either way it's a pretty sure step in the direction of bankruptcy court.

And I still haven't seen anybody address why it's more ethical for us to give up some of our fees based on mileage just to stick more money in the pockets of the signing service.

Ultimately, I'm all for the signing agents who want to charge ridiculously low fees. They can spend their time doing the signings I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole, and a year from now when they've priced themselves out of business it'll just create less competition for me.

Reply by MaggieMae you are very wise on 5/2/05 8:27pm
Msg #35428

I totally agree with you, you a fair person. Your thoughts are echoed, great thinking Maggie Mae from ssnotary. Can you believe this topic continues to get more more attention? Some folks have to always have the last word, no matter what.

Reply by CaliNotary on 5/2/05 9:50pm
Msg #35448

Isn't it amazing how when someone agrees with us they are "very wise" or "a voice of reason", but when somebody doesn't agree they're just trying to get the last word in?

And while I'm pondering the mysteries of the universe, is there a reason why you can't pick a screenname and stick with it like the rest of the people on the board do? Surely you can put your "very wise" or "nobody thinks you're satan" type comments in the subject line or body of your post instead of the author line.

Reply by CaliNotary on 5/2/05 4:36pm
Msg #35366

"The employee referred too wanted it both ways... If I'm understanding you correctly, you're wanting it both ways too."

The earlier example of the employee getting reimbursed is completely irrelevant to this discussion. That is an employee, I am a business owner.

Why is this so complicated? I set my fees based on the amount of miles, I quote that fee if a signing service calls, they can either accept it or not. The end. Where am I wanting it both ways?

Reply by ERNA_CA on 5/2/05 6:03pm
Msg #35384

Surly we don't base our decision on travel or mileage charge on any facts but ours, we know how the traffic situation is in our particular are and should base it on that not any formula any other business has in place.

Reply by CaliNotary on 5/2/05 9:47pm
Msg #35447

Exactly. And don't call me Surly.

Reply by JanetK/CA on 5/2/05 8:06pm
Msg #35422

Seems to me this whole discussion is either based on splitting hairs or on a lack of understanding. Now, if someone is charging both for extra time to travel at a distance AND the additional mileage (depending on how much), then maybe MaggieMae has a point. Otherwise, I agree that it's a matter of semantics.

The attorney comes up with his/her hourly fee based on what (s)he needs to cover overhead, including travel time. In our business, it works somewhat differently, but the concept is the same - we still have to cover overhead, so thinking in terms of hourly pay (like an employee) is likely to mislead. Some people base their fees on time, others base their fees on mileage and some both. Each person has to find what best fits their circumstances. For me, what works best and is the most predictable and simplistic, is to quote based on mileage. And you'd better believe my mileage fees are enough to compensate me for my travel time! Whether I call it a travel fee or a mileage fee is irrelevant. It's my fee and I can calculate it however I wish.

If someone is traveling to do a signing at a distance and is ONLY charging their base signing fee plus $.405/mile, they are foolish, in my opinion, since that's like traveling for free. The mileage deduction is only intended to cover your vehicle operating expenses, and its actual worth to you depends on your tax bracket. For someone who is an employee, their salary covers their time, which is why it's appropriate for them to only be reimbursed the standard mileage fee. Since we don't get salaries, we have to make sure our time is appropriately paid for, as well. It's up to the client to decide if it is worth it to pay our fee or try to find someone closer, if that's even an option.

(BTW, I would agree that it would be double dipping if we tried to charge a client mileage/travel PLUS expenses like gas, maintenance, car washes, etc.)