Posted by Cindy-PA on 5/5/05 5:11pm
Msg #36102

Copies of Drivers License for file

I would like to share with you an experience I had working at a Title Company several years ago. One of our closers (notary) did a closing for a husband and wife refinance. We required that the notary get a copy of the drivers license for the file. About two months after the closing we got a call from an attorney who claimed that she represented the husband who was "shocked" to receive a coupon book in the mail for new monthly mortgage payment on a loan he did not sign for. He claimed that he was never at the closing and did not sign any loan documents. He stated he did not owe the mortgage company any money and wasn't going to pay them a cent. (Incidentally, we found out that he and his wife were in the process of a divorce) Thank goodness we had his drivers license in our file. The signature on the drivers license exactly matched the signatures on the loan documents. The attorney was so adamant that this guy was not at the closing until I faxed her a copy of the drivers license. She called us back and apologized and was a loss of words as to why this guy would try such a thing. If it weren't for the drivers license copy, that notary could have potentially spent a lot of time in court defending and proving that he properly ID'd that individual. I don't know if it is right that I ask for copies of drivers license for my files, but after that incident, I feel that it is necessary. You never know if someone is going to try to pull a fast one like this guy did.

Reply by cmr/nc on 5/5/05 5:33pm
Msg #36108

Cindy would fingerprints be enough? Or at least close to copies of DL.

Reply by CA ESCROW on 5/5/05 6:01pm
Msg #36116

Cindy,

You are great with illustrations. You are correct to always get a copy of the Drivers License.
I worked in Escrow/Title for 4 years. These files are put in storage after closing, and then the information is destroyed. Just think what would of happened without the evidence. That borrower would
of won his case and the Attorney would of falsely represented him.

Just a thought. (Smile)

Reply by Ernest_CT on 5/5/05 7:09pm
Msg #36130

What's important here, folks, is that the title companies and/or lenders are getting/keeping the photocopies of the identification, NOT the notaries! Presumably the title companies / lenders have very secure storage for such important documents. We, as notaries, do not.

Keeping a photocopy of someone's driver's license, passport, or other document could lead to charges of identity theft and/or invasion of privacy. It's not just what we do, it is what might happen if the copies fell into the wrong hands (through no overt action of ours).

Reply by Dave_CA on 5/5/05 8:19pm
Msg #36143

While I certainly agree with Ernest about who should be responsible for copies of borrowers ID and the need for more stringent controls over the proper handling of all personal information I don't believe all would have been lost without the DL copy.

I believe the main safeguard against this type of fraud is the information in the notaries properly kept journal. Having the borrowers ID information recorded together with his signature and thumb print should be even more conclusive.

Again I'm not arguing with what has been said just trying to make a point that everyone would be well served by keeping a journal even in those states that don't yet require one and that requesting a thumbprint for every signing is a good practice. We just need to remember that we can't refuse to notarize if a thumbprint is declined except if the document is a: deed, quitclaim deed, or deed of trust affecting real property. This is true for CA I'm not sure about other states.

Reply by Zana Darrow on 5/5/05 11:38pm
Msg #36185

I have noticed that the requirements for a copy of the photo Id have dropped off. I was told at one time that the copy was a requirement of the Homeland Security Act. Our journals serve as part of a line of evidence whether there is a thumb print or not. Wisconsin does not require a thumbprint.

Reply by Art_MD on 5/6/05 7:14am
Msg #36201

Re: Are you paranoid?

Reply by Art_MD on 5/6/05 7:17am
Msg #36202

Re: Are you paranoid? oops

If we are really paranoid about this item, why not take a digital camera, photograph the signers, put on your hard drive, rename file " xxxx aa-bb-cc" (name and date). Wouldn't take that much space, isn't info that could get you in trouble with RESPA and isn't identity info that could cause problems if your computer was hacked.

Art

Reply by sue on 5/6/05 7:40am
Msg #36209

Re: Are you paranoid? oops

or one step further, we could video tape the entire closing (need a smiley face here)

Reply by PAW_Fl on 5/6/05 7:20am
Msg #36204

>>> the copy was a requirement of the Homeland Security Act <<<

The Patriot Act does not specifically require that copies of the ID be retained by the lender or anyone else. It does require that the lender obtain and document positive proof of the applicant. To that end, many financial institutions have included in the CIP (Consumer Identification Procedure) that a copy of the ID be maintained in the consumer's file. Others simply require the information to be written down after visual verification by a trusted third party or employee.

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 5/6/05 11:55am
Msg #36250

as a notary when I get an assignment I read the instructions which contain a list of stipulations to be sent along with the loan package; one which is copy of DL. I haven't been instructed to keep a copy of DL for my own records. My job is to collect the proper initials, dates, signatures, stipulations, and perform notarial acts. My journal with DL information, borrowers signature, and thumbprint (when needed) is sufficient. I would suggest that those who are in states that don't require a journal should definately keep one for thier own protection. Also most Independant Contractor Agreements have a paragraph on not keeping, using, or sharing the information that comes to us during the process. Keeping a copy of the DL in my opinion would be a violation of that in spirit if not just plain illegal. (I'm not a lawyer, this is not legal advice)
as someone who has refinanced thier home I would be extreemly angry to find out that the notary kept a copy of my hubby and I's DL's. Those copies were for the lender not for the notary. In the age of identy theft the copies should only be under the tight security that a lenders office provides.

Reply by kg/ca on 5/6/05 1:19pm
Msg #36266

Not only do I send in a copy of drivers license with each loan doc set, I keep a copy for my file too. Clipped together in my file is a invoice copy, directions to home, loan prep-sheet, fed-ex reciept, and a copy of their drivers license. Always better to be safe than sorry!

Reply by Cindy-PA on 5/6/05 1:42pm
Msg #36276

In lieu of what happened to our settlement company, I feel it's better to be safe than sorry as well. It's a matter of covering your butt! If I do in fact find out it is illegal though, I will discontinue doing it. Please remember everyone, our state does not require signatures or fingerprinting in our registers.

Reply by kg/ca on 5/6/05 1:45pm
Msg #36278

Covering butts for sure! Whenever I call the homeowner to set up the appt. I tell them I need 2 seperate copies of their ID per signer. Nobody has ever questioned that.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 5/6/05 4:55pm
Msg #36305

>>> I keep a copy [borrower's driver license] for my file too. <<<

I suggest that this practice may be in violation of the DPPA (Driver's Privacy Protection Act), the GLB (Gramm-Leach-Bliley Protection Act), and possibly the Sarbanes-Oxely Amendment (SOX), among others, unless you provide a Privacy Policy Statement to the signer and can show just cause for keeping copies of personal information.

Disclaimer - This is not legal advice or a legal recommendation or interpretation.

Reply by JanetK/CA on 5/6/05 4:36pm
Msg #36302

I have to disagree...

While I appreciate the spirit in which you are sharing your story, this whole thread makes me a bit squeamish. I wouldn't be surprised if it were just as likely or even more so, that someone would call accusing the notary or title company of identity theft. I agree with whomever stated that a thumbprint is even more conclusive proof. The only way you can get that (we hope.... although these days, who knows!!) is with the rest of the person attached (proving (s)he "personally appeared")! The photocopy of the ID could have potentially been acquired through various other means (a spouse probably wouldn't have too much trouble with that) and they could always claim forgery, so having that doesn't prove the notary properly ID'd the person. Faking a thumb print is another matter altogether! Keeping a proper journal (with thumb prints) I beleive is your best defense.

The fastest growing crime in this country is identity theft. And keeping copies of someone's ID is not only an invasion of their privacy, but risky business, in my opinion. What if someone broke into your house and stole some of those files? You could be subject to serious liability and I hate to think what *those* legal fees would be like. I don't even like to send photocopies of the borrower's ID to the title co. unless specifically requested to do so, and I HAVE had people balk at that request. (Whenever there is the option of using the CIP form, I will defer to that.) I strongly discourage keeping copies of other people's ID! If this practice multiplies within our industry (i.e. SAs), I can't help but think it will create more problems than it solves. JMHO

Reply by MaggieMae_CA on 5/6/05 4:56pm
Msg #36306

Re: I have to disagree...

I know everyone gets in an uproar about identity theft and yes, it is a problem. Please don't think I'm dismissing the seriousness of it. I think the major culprit when it comes to identity theft is the cyberworld we live in and how easy it is for those who hack, to hack.

That's not to say that I don't want to be caught dead with someone elses ID or a copy of their ID in my possession. I don't! (hmmmmmmmmmm... that was a questionable sentence, I hope people understand what I mean here).

I would like to go back to the fingerprint and the false sense of security some have that they have someone's fingerprint in their journal. I am not a fingerprint technician. There are people who have been trained to take fingerprints and I'm not so sure that the fingerprints in my journal are done correctly and could be authenticated properly if needed.

Think about when (for those of you who have had fingerprints done by a professional) your fingerprints were taken and how they were rolled. I've never rolled my fingerprint in anyone's notary journal. I have just left a simple impression. Hopefully an impression that if needed could be confirmed by law enforcement.

The most important thing is that we do our very best to verify a person's identification and compare the ID being given to the person who is doing the signing; follow the laws and guidelines governing us and our actions; and be consistent in what we do and how we do it.

Reply by Art_MD on 5/6/05 8:29pm
Msg #36349

Re: fingerprint quality

A fingerprint can have 30+ identifying points. In most legal juristictions, 11 or 12 matching points are a conclusive match.

One reason professionally taken fingerprints are rolled, is that when a fingerprint is left on a surface it is almost never pressed so a perfect imprint is left. Police want the largest area of the print on record so they can match partial prints.

I'd bet that if you cut a fingerprint taken from a willing person (into a journal) in half, you would probable still be able to get 11 or 12 matching points. With a full print, not smudged, from a journal I don't think there is 1 in 100000 chance that there wouldn't be a conclusive match.

In short, if it has the center of the print, isn't badly smudged, its fine.

Art

Reply by MaggieMae_CA on 5/8/05 12:56am
Msg #36491

Re: fingerprint quality

I think you're right about that Art. I've had my fingerprints taken numerous times (no, not a felon, I've adopted 3 kids, was a realtor, stuff like that) and they have always rolled them. My palms and fingers sweat like crazy and I had a detective tell me to stop being nervous because I was messing up the prints. Now that... was embarrassing! I really like LiveScan alot better than the old ink prints.

Reply by JanetK/CA on 5/8/05 1:20am
Msg #36493

Re: I have to disagree...

Interesting enough, I heard on a recent program about identity theft that the biggest culprits are still dumpster diving and simple things like leaving a credit card to run a tab or even turning it over to a waiter at dinner. Scary, huh? The cyberworld is catching up rapidly, however.