Posted by PETER LUSBY on 5/10/05 12:51am
Msg #36837

Excessive signatures in loan docs these days.

I just (about an hour ago) wrapped up a loan signing - 1st & 2nd Tds, plus escrow docs. In all, I counted 157 places where husband and wife each had to sign. This included:

- 2 requests for TIN certifications and tax returns for each spouse (including all the IRS note pages), even though one of each, total, would have sufficed.

4 separate 1003 forms (initial every page, and sign 2 of them)

4 Signature/AKA affidavits

4 Affidavits of compliance.

In this particular case, the husband is blind and disabled and unable to sign, so the wife had power of attorney to sign for him, BUT she has arthritis in her right hand, arm ans shoulder. She had to sign her own name 157 times, and then "Jonathan Q Borrower Junior by Jane NMI Borrower, Attorney in Fact" another 157 times. The signing process took 3 hours!!!!!

There were a total of 28 notarial acts, plus 4 Patriot act certifications. This took another hour!

Admittebly this was somehting of an extreme case, but how can we get together and put pressure on the lenders and escrow companies to instil some sanity into the way they do things, so that these kind of absurdities become a thing of the past?

Answer here, or e-mail me. I'm serious about wanting to do whatever it takes to fix this problem, and I'll take all the support I can get.

Reply by kt/ca on 5/10/05 1:07am
Msg #36840

When you figure that out... I am in! Also drives me crazy to see 9 RTC's (and there are still 2 copies in the signers packet) , and 3 duplicate sets of everything ( all need signatures). After awhile the signer looks at me befuddled..."didnt I just sign that?"
Calinotary would be the man to ask.....

Reply by Happy in Fl on 5/10/05 1:41am
Msg #36842

Wow! Did they also require fax backs? n/m

Reply by PAW_Fl on 5/10/05 8:52am
Msg #36872

Depending on which loan prep package they are using, it will spit out enough documents for four (4) signers. This means that there will be 9 RTC's, two for each "potential" signer and one to be returned to the lender. The closer responsible for putting the package together typically does not review the package to remove duplicate (or even blank) pages. Just makes sure that everything gets printed. Then they ship it or scan it.

Reply by Stephen_VA on 5/10/05 7:32am
Msg #36856

Either an act of Congress or an act of God would be required. I suggest you start praying.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 5/10/05 8:49am
Msg #36870

First and foremost, if there are two loans, then the document sets must be duplicated. Reason being that one loan may be assigned to another lender, therefore the "package" must be complete for the assignment to be valid.

Given the above, that would cover why there were doubles of most documents. Add to that, that some lenders and title companies both, separately and independently, want compliance agreements and AKA affidavits. So with two loans, there may be 4 of each.

There are often multiple 1003's in each loan package as these are needed to be signed anytime a loan program is requested. So, often you will have an "original" application and then a final, updated application, both of which needs to be signed by the applicants. Multiply by two (two loans) and you have 4 applications.

So, it boils down to 14 notarial acts per loan, which is a bit high, but not uncommon.

As for fixing it, until the entire loan process is standardized more than just the forms being used, there will be no fix. I've seen packages as small as 30 pages (for a full refinance) and as many as 191. So there is a great disparity in the content and methodology used by the lenders and title companies. Standardization is a wonderful thing, but complete "buy-in" would be required. (I'm not holding my breath!)

Reply by Veronica_ca on 5/10/05 9:11am
Msg #36874

Ameriquest sends duplicate docs over all the time, but they say borrower copy. That is where I get confused? I have a package right now that has 6 right to cancell for the borrower? I just give them to the borrower anyway. Do you think that is wrong?

Reply by PAW_Fl on 5/10/05 3:10pm
Msg #36980

If they say "borrower copy", give them to the borrower. You're only following directions. Ameriquest, or any lender, really only needs one signed copy from each person who has an interest in the property. Whether or not each person signs one copy or there's one copy for each signer. All the rest, you can give to the borrower, if you want, as long as each signer has two copies for themselves, individually.

Reply by Victoria/FL on 5/10/05 10:00am
Msg #36883

I was just aggravated about the same thing!

Last night I had a (what I thought) to be a simple closing. The package was average size with the standard docs. However, they had 3 compliance agreements, 2 title affidavits, 2 borrower's certification, and on, and on. This was only one loan, and the forms were exactly the same except one was faxed and one emailed. Why, why why is it necessary for them to sign so many originals? The borrower's were very nice, but signed veeerrrryy sssssllllllooooowwww. It took 2 hours! I couldn't help fuming to myself that if they didn't have to sign the same docs that I could have been out of there a lot sooner. And when you asked the signing service or title company, "do they have to sign all the duplicates?" the answer is always the same, "Yes, have them sign each copy."

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 5/10/05 11:35am
Msg #36906

Hi Peter, if you don't mind I'd like to know what your fee was? was the package overnighted or edocs? after all was said and done what do you feel the charge should have been? what state are you in?

this is what burns me we are charging an all inclusive fee whether a single package has 1 or 14 notarizations in it. And we are being lowballed big time. In CA if you were to charge the max for each notarization that would have been $280 for the notarizations alone (yeah I know fat chance). I understand why there's a set fee because of all things I am also a hairdresser. But here's the issue. Client comes in for a haircut you charge one price whether it's short or long, man or woman. The amount of time spent on a hair cut does vary but not to greatly so your not loosing out, your being fair. However 2 clients come in for perms, one has shoulder length hair, the other has hair down to her butt. There's no way I'm gonna charge the same for these services. Not only am I using 3 times the product, I'm spending triple the time. To do that perm I also have to consider that I'm turning down other work so I need to make sure that I'm not cutting my own throat. And the hairdressing field is saturated everywhere.

Ok so I vented.... Now I shall go back to paying my dues.....

Reply by ERNA_CA on 5/10/05 11:50am
Msg #36912

Re: Sarah, did you get that call for Friday signing? n/m

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 5/10/05 11:55am
Msg #36915

Re: Sarah, did you get that call for Friday signing? n/m

No, they didn't call. I'm sure they just went to the next notary on thier list. Oh well they at least have my name now. In fact I think I'll google them and properly register just in case.

Reply by ERNA_CA on 5/10/05 12:00pm
Msg #36916

Re: Sarah, did you get that call for Friday signing? n/m

Good idea, they do many up here. I had to turn down 3 signings because of the girls get away for mothers day weekend, but we had a wonderful time.

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 5/10/05 12:04pm
Msg #36917

Re: Sarah, did you get that call for Friday signing? n/m

glad to hear you enjoyed your Mother's Day Festivities. I also did, other than the two hours at the hospital making sure my daughter didn't break her arm.

Reply by ERNA_CA on 5/10/05 12:08pm
Msg #36919

Re: Sarah, did you get that call for Friday signing? n/m

I hope shes ok!!!! I made many a trip to emergency with my son back when, I swore he was trying to kill him self

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 5/10/05 12:14pm
Msg #36921

Re: Sarah, did you get that call for Friday signing? n/m

she'll be fine. no break. but she will wear a sling and no P.E. for a week. she was at the neighbors on thier hammock (they had one hanging over concrete, I did not know) flipped backwards and fell out landing on her head, shoulder, and arms. I thinks she's making it a yearly spring tradition to do something that lands her in the ER.

Reply by PETER LUSBY on 5/10/05 1:07pm
Msg #36937

Hi Sarah-

That particular signing agency charges the client $125 and pays me $75. I picked up the docs from Escrow (had to cool my heels for 70 minutes in their lobby waiting for the package), and ahnd carried the signed papers back. What I'd like to see is our profession approaching that of, say, the entertainment profession. Down here in Lalaland (Southern CA - I cover LA, Orange, Riverside and San Diego counties) the escrow companies work on an estimated signing fee of $150 per loan. If the signing agencies would quit being so greedy, they could take a standard 10% off the top for their overhead, and leave the rest for those of us who drive the miles, spend the hours at the kitchen table, AND CARRY ALL THE DAMNED RISK! If anything goes wrong, it's not the agency who goes back out to fix it. It's not their butt in a sling if someone wants to complain to the Secretary of State about something. It's not their bond or their E&O that gets hit when the stuff really hits the fan!

In another thread on this forum, someone suggested we should sign up with "at least a hundred signing agencies". Great idea, except that most agencies charge between $50 and $150 a year just to register with them. Do the math. and figure out how much it would cost to pay an average of $100 to each of 100 agencies! How many of us can afford an annual investment of $10,000, paid up front at the beginning of the year? Then they add insult to injury by raping us on the share they take out of the signing fee.

For this job it should have been $150 for the 1st TD and an additional $75 for the 2nd TD, less 10% for the agency, plus $15 courier fee for pickup and another $15 for delivery, for a total of $232.50.

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 5/10/05 1:34pm
Msg #36950

yikes! Just to clarify, did the signing agency only charge the client for the 1st?

Reply by ERNA_CA on 5/10/05 2:28pm
Msg #36964

$150.00 is what I get from one escrow co. down the street from me. I pick up the package and bring it back when I am done. They call me when the package is ready so I pick it up in the reception no waiting. Ideal but doesn't happen in most cases.