Posted by MI_Notary on 5/12/05 8:36pm
Msg #37412

Thoughts on this please

I did a signing on 4/19/05. I got an email last night from the ss requesting I send in 2 Acknowledgements and 2 Jurats to them via FedEx Overnight right away. They further stated that these documents had to have the borrower’s full name Jane Ann Doe. The original signature only had Jane A. Doe as that was what was printed on the documents. I told them that I do not send these types of documents without attaching them to the originals. I mean how can I guarantee they are being attached to something I witnessed?? The ss said they could fax the documents to me and I could use them to attach to. When I received the faxed documents, they each had the signature I witnessed (Jane A. Doe), while also having another signature on them with her full name (Jane Ann Doe - which I did not witness). It appeared they had resent the documents to her, had her sign them again (without me there) and expected me to just send in the requested Acknowledgements and Jurats. When I receive the faxed copies and noticed the additional signature, I called the ss and told them I could not do as they requested because I did not witness the second signature. I further told them I would be happy to take the documents to her, have her sign my attachments in her full legal name and notarize those. They told me they would get back with me. However, I haven't heard back from them. BTW - I was told it was no error on my part and it was to correct a processor's typing error. I was also told that the loan would be unfunded if I did not comply. I asked how could a loan unfunded?? Were they going to ask for the money back from the other mortgage company?? Either way, I was not going to say I witnessed the second signature when I didn't!! I am not going to jail or losing my notary license for such a thing!! Do notaries actually do this?? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. (Please excuse any typos and/or spelling errors as I am really tired).

Reply by SamIam_CA on 5/12/05 8:44pm
Msg #37414

I think you did the right thing! It sounds like they want to cover their own butts and leave your's swinging in the breeze. Good for you for turning them down.

Reply by MI_Notary on 5/12/05 9:11pm
Msg #37418

Thanks. Now their butts are still swinging and mine isn't. ;)

Reply by Julie-mi on 5/12/05 8:47pm
Msg #37415

Not your mistake. You cannot do as they requested.

They CAN pay you go to out and have the document re-executed.

Don't let them guilt you into breaking the law.

It was the processors fault and it doesn't even make sense that the loan would not fund without the name variation. If the docs were ALL Jane A. Doe, including the note, than the Jane Ann Doe would not cause a loan not to fund.

Reply by MI_Notary on 5/12/05 9:08pm
Msg #37417

Yes, all loan docs were signed as Jane A. Doe or at least the ones I witnessed. Also, I am sure that the loan has already funded since it has been almost a month since the original closing. Especially since they said it would be unfunded, which makes no sense. How could a loan be unfunded? If all funds have been disbursed and funded, how could they now unfund them? What they were telling me just didn't make sense. However, I know I am not sending them what they request just to fix their so called error. They may not pay me my fee now, but the small fee is not worth what I would be losing if I did what they requested and got called on it. I value my freedom way too much to do anything illegal. What is scary is to think how many new notaries would have done this and thought it was ok just because the ss said it was ok to do.

Reply by Barry on 5/12/05 9:25pm
Msg #37422

If they are asking you to break the law, then the answer should always be "NO." If they neglected to give you special instructions, e.g. having the borrower sign the full name, even though it was signed as they printed the name, then you should not be held accountable. I refuse to send blank notarized notarial certificates. You're right! How do you know what they will do with them? They have two choices: a) they can ask you to do the signing over for which you will charge a full fee (this is their fault, and you should never have absorb the cost of another's error); or b) they can get the signatures themselves and notarize it themselves. Never comply to break the law. You lose self-respect, respect of others, honesty, and integrity.

Reply by Nancy in Florida on 5/12/05 11:01pm
Msg #37441

Was there a name affadavit? If so were both variations of her name on that doc? If so they shouldn't have a problem but what is the hesitation with you going back out to have her sign the the docs? There is no reason this loan should be unfunded. I've never heard that term anyway. JUst have her resign it correctly in front of a Notary and all is fine. You have already agreed to go back so what is the problem, I wonder if she really did sign it with the correct name? Their actions are so weird that this is the only thing I can come up with that they are being a little shady, you did the right thing!

Reply by MI_Notary on 5/13/05 10:20am
Msg #37489

That is why I suggested I could go back. I didn't have a problem with that other than I would charge another fee. However, I still haven't heard back from them regarding the trip or the original docs for the signature. Yes there was a name affidavit, which I always have the borrower print all name variations, as well as sign all name variations. So, I am not sure why the documents are being rejected.

Reply by ItsMe123 on 5/13/05 12:01am
Msg #37446

Yes, After Disbursement a loan can unfund--Here's Why/How

In regards to your situation, Never would it okay to do what they ask.

Unfortuantly unfunds, although rare, they do happen. Usually it would not be this late but it can and does happen this late. A lender can and does pull back wires from title all day long.

Sounds likely the new deed does not match the previous vesting. This happens because the borrower tells LO a name for the 1003, the loan docs get drawn with the name on the 1003 and noone notices that the new "proposed insured" ("proposed insured is the name on title taken from the 1003 or from the time title was ordered) on the prelim title report does not match the existing vesting as recorded in the county. Easy error with big consequences. I guess some may blame the LO or whomever else down the chain. It starts with the LO but seriuosly what borrower would be able to answer the LO correctly when she/he asks, "How exactly is your property currently vested at the county courthouse, uuummm, I need to know this to properly fill out your loan application". Could you answer that question if someone asked about your home? The LO then gathers the info to build a loan. The processor, if a LO uses one, submits the "gathering". The gathered file goes to underwriting and an underwriter may catch it ---they are trying to clear "conditions" quickly though so the loan is not lost by their company to another company that can clear quicker. A 24hr "turn time" or "clear" time is competitive in this business but some wholesalers look to boast a 3 hour "clear time"---the underwriter will look to "clear" the file, throw out "stips" (loan stipulations that must be satisfied to close) to the LO, the LO will answer the "stips". The underwriter will "sign off" on the last "stip" and BOOM---we got a loan. In this process they can miss it. Now we have a "clear to close" with improper vesting. Now the file is to a funder, they miss it as they are trying to get docs drawn, fund the paper, get the wire to title and make sure title knows the wire is there. Last but not least is escrow, they miss it as they are dealing with the HUD and the title docs (or junk docs as they are frequently called.). Did I mention it is the end of the month so all of these people are on "slam" mode. Slam them though. This is the number one reason for a quick slipped in Quit Claim at close to prevent a re-draw of loan docs. Many/Most wholesale lenders charge a 150.00 dollars for a re-draw. No excuses here--just the facts, been guilty of it myself.

They do have a considerable problem if the vesting is wrong and the secondary investor is refusing to buy/fund the paper back from/to the lender. I imagine this late it was probably caught by an investor/secondary market and they may be trying to satisfy this condition so the lender is able to sell the loan on to the secondary market. This is yet another funding in the process. Investors/secondary market and sometimes even farther out in the market (in the case of many "super brokers" who some mistakenly think are wholesalers, a loan may see 3 sales processes) invest in the paper and in turn hire "servicers" to "service the paper". The loan due to vesting issues may not be secured by the collateral. Quit claiming is most likely not an option now as it would be impossible this late to have the vesting changed and still reflect the dates they need.

It would be interesting to see how they did solve the problem but it is probably better to not go there.

Although one may be a "that's not my job notary", notaries are the last person in a long line of people who have looked and looked at how a loan is built/drawn soley to satisfy the secondary market and probably because they are trying to do the duties outlined above, they missed the issue. There is sometimes a prelim title in the doc package so an escrow officer/closing agent can be one more in the line of defense---sometimes this will go out in the title docs to the closer/signing agent. Usually at this point in the game escrow is going to miss it as they see everything in line because a "clear to close" has been issued. and they find themselves doing a HUD "on the fly" at the end on the month. If the prelim title report did go out with the title docs (junk docs) and the notary looked at the "junk docs" and noticed this on the prelim so someone could whip up a Quit Claim, they would be very appreciated.

That's why the notaries that sign down my paper are called "Money"
P.S. Ted---nothing out your way yet.

I might not be the best speller/typer but I know this business---LOL

Take Care

Reply by Joan-OH on 5/13/05 7:27am
Msg #37464

It simply amazes me......

That the paperwork can go through so many hands and no one looks at the title committment to see vesting.....and this is THEIR job. The first big clue is when the title docs have them signing one way and the lender docs have them signing another. I appreciate it when title companies include the committment because then I can check the vesting and call if there is a discrepancy and usually get instructions to have the borrowers change and initial the mortgage to match vesting or add an aka. Sometimes it requires a deed.

Never the less, thanks for the education. When I get these situations I always just shake my head and wonder HOW MANY hands has this deal gone through, & ME, the notary is just catching this mistake at the table. Now I know.

Joan-OH

Reply by Nancy in Florida on 5/13/05 8:55am
Msg #37467

Re: It simply amazes me......

When I was in mortgage banking determining vesting was one of my jobs, as were many others. Once I got the vesting information we had a file cover sheet attached and then pre-printed on our file folders. We had a section that read vesting and we rarely ever had a problem with vesting errors. We had all of the loan information on this cover sheet, int rate, loan amt etc and it was great and was idiot proof and was such an easy fix.

Reply by MI_Notary on 5/13/05 10:37am
Msg #37495

Re: Yes, After Disbursement a loan can unfund--Here's Why/How

Thanks for the information. It is very informative. I have been doing this for over 5 years and this is the first time this has come up for me and I wasn't aware of all of this. I mean I knew that a large part of mortgages are resold, especially when the loan originated at a mortgage office rather than a bank, etc. However, I never knew the specific details of the whole process loan resale process. Wouldn't it be easier if they requested copies of deeds during the loan application process -- to make sure all information is correct?? Just a thought.

Also, yes I know how mine is recorded. I keep all important/legal documents in one area so I have easy access to them. ;) and yes it does sound like you know your business!! I am very glad someone could help explain this as the ss certainly couldn't or at least wouldn't explain. It makes me want to futher investigate to learn more about it. I hate not knowing or wondering why something happens or does not happen. Thanks again!

Reply by Lee/AR on 5/12/05 11:55pm
Msg #37445

Wish I could take credit for this, but, I read this on a message board: When they are asking you to do something that you believe is wrong... or simply don't know...ask them to hold while you set up a conference call with your SOS office and they can discuss this in a 3-way with the SOS, after identifying themselves....and they hang up sooooo fast and you won't hear about this 'problem' again. They know they are wrong, but if YOU are willing...what the heck--worth a try. Not their butt! Make it their butt.

Reply by Kevin Ahern on 5/13/05 4:48am
Msg #37457

In so far as unfunding is concerned, I ran into a similar issue several years ago. There is something apparently called a reverse deposit. It was explained to me that if there is a problem the bank upon which the check is drawn can reverse the transaction, and every bank down the line has to cough up the money and reverse the transaction so on down the line until it hits the low man on the totem pole. I am not sure if this is what you are talking about,
but I have seen it work very effectively.