Posted by ctnotary on 5/22/05 10:26pm
Msg #39621
signing service business
does anyone have any information on how to start a signing service company. just curious. I'm not looking for anyone to do the 'work' for me .. i'm more then willing to search and discover for myself .. Just wondering if there are any ss agents on this board that can throw me a few tips.
thanks!
| Reply by Negretes Notary Service on 5/22/05 10:31pm
Msg #39622
I can tell you that you have to put in 15 hr days sometimes. I have done that for the last two years.
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/22/05 11:18pm
Msg #39627
Sure I can give you a couple of tips.
First, you need an database of excellent signing agents - if you don't have excellent signing agents who do error free signings, then the title companies will not use you.
Second: You need to be able to convince title companies to use your signing service, why you are better than the ones they are using now.
Third: You need to have enough capital so you can pay the signing agents whether you get paid or not, and pay them in a timely manner.
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/22/05 11:20pm
Msg #39628
Re: signing service business - typo
That was supposed to be a database of excellent signing agents not an database!
(I had started to type an excellent database of signing agents, but realized it should be a database of excellent signing agents.)
| Reply by AMY_FL on 5/23/05 7:42am
Msg #39647
Sylvia,
When you say :""database of excellent signing agents - if you don't have excellent signing agents who do error free signings, then the title companies will not use you.""""
what exactly do you mean?
How would you even do that?
I think you'd know how "excellent" they are after they do a closing or two for you and then decide, so basically like everything else, it is trial and error in this business too, I am saying that because you don't give them a signing test to determine how good they are?! It could take months for that, then ....it does take a long while to determine a title company to do business with you, unless they are in need and you are there at the right time, it is not very easy to sell your services to them, I tryed and it just doesn't work .......
...and as far as the capital.....well I can say that we were very lucky to be working with a very good title company that paid right away and we paid our closers right away, but we didn't had any back up capital.
This is just my opinion!
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/23/05 10:51am
Msg #39660
Re: signing service business - Amy
Amy
The first few signings they have to fax back certain documents. I will call them and if there is anything to be corrected then I will have them take care of it before shipping the documents out. If after a couple of signings they are making the same errors, then they are removed from my database and I will not use them again.
Title companies do not pay until the loan funds. I pay as soon as the agent has completed the signing, which is how it should be.
What happens if you get a title company that doesn't pay you right away?? Or the loan doesn't fund or it is a no-sign? Do you still pay the signing agent right away?
| Reply by AMY_FL on 5/23/05 12:18pm
Msg #39673
Re: signing service business - for Sylvia
Sylvia,
I guess we just got lucky, because we only worked with one title company and of course they paid when the loan funded, but we always paid our closers within our 15 day net policy!
We also paid trip fees if it didn't close, but we charged the title company the trip fee if it didn't close and our closer had to go out there for nothing!
It wasn't our fault in didn't close! we only provided them with the closer!
I guess we got lucky if you say that certain title companies don't pay!
Amy
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/23/05 12:33pm
Msg #39675
Re: signing service business - for Sylvia
I agree it is not our fault or the signing agents if the loan does not fund for any reason. But you only have to read the message boards to know that some title companies will not pay if the loan does not fund for any reason.
If the loan does not close, I do not pay a "trip fee" I pay the full fee, it isn't the signing agents fault if the loan does not get signed, or does not close after it is signed. So, there is no reason to penalize the signing agent for it. The signing agent deserves the full fee. And I always pay the full fee, as any of the agents who have worked with me will tell you, and they do get paid as soon as they finish the signing, the check is in the mail the next day.
| Reply by AMY_FL on 5/23/05 12:44pm
Msg #39677
Re: signing service business - for Sylvia
Sylvia,
I am not saying that your policies are wrong by any means, believe me it would be ideal for every ss to do that.
But! As, ss (ok that just looks funny!) it is not our fault either that the loan didn't close! we get paid by the title or mortgage company and if a loan doesn't close I don't go after the title company and charge the full amount if it didn't close! we don't think that it is ethical to do so!
We get paid to provide a signing agent, we provided the signing agent, but the loan had issues, ddn't close, well if we got far enough that our agent had gone out there and it didn't close, we notify the title company and then we pay a trip fee to our closers.
As far as paying regardless of getting paid or not by the title company, well I don't think I agree with that,....what if you have 4 agencies that are not going to pay you, you will loose the money! yeah, you paid your agent but at what cost!??!?! you probably need a HUGE capital to afford something like that!
We provide the service for the title company and before we find them any notaries we make sure we all get paid and they know what our fees are to provide this service for them.
Also, I keep read about how some notaries only get paid $50 for a closing!?!?!? well, I think that starts with how big the title company is....a respectable title company will realize that if they want to stay in business and close loans they need to respect the closers that make that happen for them!!!!! and pay at least $125 for a normal closing!
Amy
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/23/05 1:02pm
Msg #39680
Re: signing service business - for Amy
Amy
If the signing agent goes out to do a signing, he/she expects to get paid. It is not their fault if the loan doesn't close.
You say if you have 4 agencies that are not going to pay you, you will lose the money if you pay the agent. Why should the agent eat your loss? It is not the agents problem that you are not going to be paid. You agreed to pay the agent x amount of dollars to go to the borrowers to do the signing. You are obligated to honour that agreement.
Yes, you do need capital to do this for that very reason.
| Reply by AMY_FL on 5/23/05 1:11pm
Msg #39684
Re: signing service business - for Amy
Ok, then I guess there are 3 types of closing agencies:
1: Like yours that have a lot of capital to afford losses
2: Like mine, where I explain to the closer what the conditions are
3: Like the ones that everyone is complaining that either pay $50 or not at all!!!!!
I always let my closers know what the deal is going to be, not everyone has that much capital... plus,.....if you find that ONE title company, you need not to worry about the losses and everyone is happy!
I understand your point of view here, but not everyone operates the same way, yes it is very nice that you are able to do that, but you are also able to do this because you probably have several title/mortgage companies that pay on time also, so you really don't have to worry about anything!
Amy
| Reply by PAW_Fl on 5/23/05 1:08pm
Msg #39682
Re: signing service business - for Sylvia
Amy,
As a signing agent I have a contract with you, the signing service, to perform a certain function and task (or tasks). Having completed the assignment, I would expect to be paid per the terms and conditions of the contract. "Trip fees" are not something I accept in a contract. If I make the trip and sit at the table with the borrower(s), whether or not the docs get signed or the loan funds, I did what I was hired to do. Therefore I expect to be paid for the work as completed. Of course, if I made the trip but for whatever reason, did not sit at the table and spend the time going through the package, then I would only expect to be paid for what was actually done, trip and possibly printing costs.
Further, I don't give two hoots whether or not you are paid by the title company. That's an issue between you and title company. I do care if I get paid by you, since it is with you, the signing service that hired me, that will be paying me and with whom I have the contract for services. If you have 4 agencies that aren't paying you, what difference does that make to me? It's your business practices that allowed that, not mine. Again, as an agent, my dealings are solely with the company that hired me based on the services I provide.
You mentioned that you have read about notaries only receiving $50 for a signing. How much do you pay? I know how much I get direct from title companies, and I know how much I get from some signing services. If you getting at least $125 for a signing from the title company, then I think the notary should get at least $100, don't you?
| Reply by AMY_FL on 5/23/05 1:29pm
Msg #39694
Re: signing service business - for Sylvia
PAW,
We pay our closers $125, $50 trip fee which depends like you said if, printing docs, sitting there, miles, etc, $175 for two trip closing (that only if it within 20 miles)
The 4 agencies was an example! I was trying to explain to Sylvia "what if" you get into a situation like that!!! what then!!
We never had a situation like that, but whe Sylvia mentined it, I disagreed because we as a closing company get paid my the title companies, so therefore if there is anyone that needs to pay if a loan doesn't close, that is the title (or whomever ordered the closing), that pays's us and then we pay our closers!
You don't have to agree with me, but this is how we do it!!
Amy
| Reply by AMY_FL on 5/23/05 1:31pm
Msg #39695
Re: signing service business - for Paw
Sorry about the typo's, I'm typing with one hand!!! (but whe Sylvia mentined it,)
| Reply by Ernest_CT on 5/23/05 1:47pm
Msg #39702
Personal + business responsibility: I'm with Sylvia and PAW!
There are two problems prevalent in society today: 1) Entitlement; 2) Refusal to take personal responsibility.
1) Because Joe Driver has a driver's license and a car, he's entitled to drive any way he wants to. He doesn't have to signal before changing lanes, he can turn around in the middle of a road, he can pass where there's a "No Passing" sign, and he can keep his bright lights on so that HE can see even though it blinds the oncoming driver. Joe's entitled.
2a) Nick Notary agrees to a $50 signing for Betsy Borrower at noon on Wednesday because things are slow. Nick gets a call at nine on Wednesday offering $125 for a noon edocs signing; Nick takes it because $125 is much more than $50. The fact that Betsy Borrower has arranged to take time off from her minimum-wage job is not Nick Notary's problem. He's just watching out for himself. After all, nobody would expect him to turn down more money just because he gave his word that he'd be at Betsy Borrower's home on time.
2b) Suzie Notary agreed to do a signing for Bill Borrower. Jane Owner doesn't have to honor her commitment to pay Suzie Notary because Dick Title isn't going to pay her. It's not Jane's problem that Suzie Notary refused another assignment because Suzie had already committed to Bill's signing, and Suzie always keeps her word. It's not Jane's problem that Suzie printed documents, Suzie spent time reviewing them, Suzie drove to Bill Borrower's home, Suzie spent an hour and a half with Bill because he had to read everything, Suzie triple-checked the documents to be certain she had done a good job, and Suzie rushed to get the package dropped off on time. No; that's Suzie's problem. The fact that Bill Borrower decided to cancel the loan is not Jane Owner's fault, so certainly Jane doesn't owe Suzie Notary for her perfect work. The loan is not going to fund, so obviously Dick Title doesn't owe Jane Owner any money for her work, even though Jane did her work flawlessly.
| Reply by AMY_FL on 5/23/05 2:44pm
Msg #39721
Re: Personal + business responsibility: I'm with Sylvia and PAW!
Well,...I don't know how you all get paid in full when a loan doesn't close?!?!?!
I can understand that is desired, but I haven't heard it before except for Sylvia's SS, that a closer gets paid in full if the loan doesn't close.
I just have one question to you all; Have you all got paid the full amount agreed on EVERY SINGLE TIME when the loan didn't close?????
Because I believe that indeed you print docs, go to the premise, etc but if it doesn't close, )(yeah it is not your fault in 90% of the cases) but you expect us Closing companies to pay regardless, well, unfortunatelly youre not our Salaried Employees that have a fixed salary twice a month plus bonus!!!!
You all expect closing companies to pay for services not provided, and ...we do pay printing fees, trip fees, so basically we do our job in recognizing that you did do a service, BUT the main reason you were at that closing was to close the loan, and if that didn't happen then you can't really expect to be paid in full!
Amy
| Reply by SamIam_CA on 5/23/05 2:52pm
Msg #39723
Re: business responsibility vs. notary responsibility
***the main reason you were at that closing was to close the loan***
I completely disagree. The only reason I attend a closing to is verify the identity of the signers and ensure they sign and initial as indicated. As a SA I also ensure the borrowers receive the required copies of the RTC and that the dates are correct. As a Notary Public I am a completely neutral party to the the loan. If I wasn't; I'd be unable to notarize the documents.
***and if that didn't happen then you can't really expect to be paid in full!***
Why not? The person who did the appraisal is paid in full. Why don't we deserve the same respect?
| Reply by ERNA_CA on 5/23/05 2:57pm
Msg #39725
Re: Ditto Sam. n/m
| Reply by ERNA_CA on 5/23/05 3:28pm
Msg #39741
Re: business responsibility vs. notary responsibility
Ideal situation is that Notaries get paid by borrower. Sure would make things simpler for us.
SS gets finders fee and we collect our own fee.
| Reply by Teasa/NY on 5/23/05 3:09pm
Msg #39730
Don't Know How You Get Paid; No Close
I used to work for a Law Firm/Title Company. We had great closers, who were very carefully chosen. When a loan did not fund (rescinds) which was not often, we always paid our closers for the full signing. Yes, the company took a hit once in a while but that practice kept very good people on board. I know a signing co. may not have the resources of a title co., but I guess if you want to play with the big boys .......
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/23/05 3:29pm
Msg #39743
Exactly Teasa
I pay my signing agents full fee whether the loan closes or not, so when I call them again for a signing they jump at the chance to work with me. They know that if they go to the borrowers home to get the loan signed, they will get paid full fee.
Signing agents do not close loans, they are not paid to close loans. They are paid to take the documents out to the borrowers, go over the docs with the borrowers (not explaining them, but identifying what they are) and show them where to sign, notarize the necessary docs and send the package back in a prompt manner. If the borrower choses not to sign, then it is no fault of the signing agent. And if a signing agent was only going to get paid if the loan closes, then they would be apt to step out of their boundaries to try and close the loan.
Notaries public are disinterested parties and cannot be paid depending on the outcome of the loan. That gives them more of a vested interest in the loan funding,which is illegal. We cannot notarize documents that we have a vested interest in the outcome. (I intend to discuss this with one of my state legislatures on the 26th when I meet with him)
| Reply by ERNA_CA on 5/23/05 3:24pm
Msg #39737
Re: Amy we are not closers, but signing agent. n/m
| Reply by AMY_FL on 5/23/05 3:32pm
Msg #39749
Re: Amy we are not closers, but signing agent. n/m
I am very much aware of that:
Closing Agent: handles the closing AND the legal transfer of title and ownership from the seller to the buyer. Also called Settlement Agent. See bottom link.
Or this: Closer - Coordinates closing transactions in real estate company: Receives and deposits escrow monies in established accounts and disburses funds from each account. Reviews closing documents to determine accuracy of information and need for additional documents.
Amy
| Reply by ERNA_CA on 5/23/05 3:42pm
Msg #39761
Re: Amy we are not closers, but signing agent. n/m
So why make the statement . You are sent out to close the loan?????? We are not. We are there to get the borrower's signatures and to notarize it. The closer gets paid weather the loan closes or not. Will not get a bonus but still gets a pay check. So you are trying to justify not paying for signing service by saying we should be concerned with if the loan closes or not. We provide a service and we expect to be paid for that service.
| Reply by InkWerk/CA on 5/23/05 3:38pm
Msg #39756
This is how my company gets burned by other SS.
We pay our notaries if the loan funds or not. If the notary completes the signing error free, there is no reason why they should not get paid the full fee. If your company has an agreement with the title company to keep their business, that is between you and the title company. If I was in your position, I would be concerned about being sued for not paying since they have proof they did the signing and if you don't have a contract stating they don't get paid (if loan doesn't close) you may get sued if one of your notaries become disgruntled. Also, you have every right to conduct business any way you like, but you are bringing down the industry by passing off the loss to the notary and making other singing services look like cheap bastards. Don't get me wrong, I do cut breaks (no charge) to certain title companies when the loan cancels or falls out of escrow, but we have found ways to offset the loss. You really have to use your head when you make that leap to work with independent contractors, otherwise you are just another notary trying to get a larger piece of the title company action and giving a bad name to serious signing services who are trying to be fair to all the parties involved while providing professional management services.
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 5/23/05 3:41pm
Msg #39759
Re: This is how my company gets burned by other SS.
Well said Inkwerk
I knew I wasn't the only signing service paying full fee if the loan did not close.
| Reply by InkWerk/CA on 5/23/05 4:09pm
Msg #39780
Re: This is how my company gets burned by other SS.
Thanks
This is a ridiculous trend that I hope gets squashed soon. We are starting to see more of "the other signing companies do it". Fortunately we have been able to steer some (not all) of our good title companies away from that mindset. I think what has happened is new escrow and signing agents are mistaking "no sign" with "no fund/no close". When I was a independent, I didn't have a problem waiving my fee for no signs. I knew they would give me more work and that I would end up going back and getting paid. But never did a company refuse to pay for a no fund when I was an independent. Very sad trends coming into play as competition increases.
| Reply by AMY_FL on 5/23/05 6:39pm
Msg #39842
Re: This is how my company gets burned by other SS.
I never said that we don't pay our signing agents if it doesn't close.
All I said was that we pay a trip fee & print fee if it got as far as printing the docs, in fact we only had just one time so far when our signing agent went out there and the borrower's refused to sign because they didn't agree with the numbers on the docs!!!!!
Our signing agent got paid the trip fee, we also had a situation where our signing agent went out there and it didn't close that day, but it closed the next day, so we paid the normal fee for the closing which is $125 plus the trip fee from the day before which was $50.
So, never did I say we don't pay our signing agents, all I said was that when it happens that the loan doesn't close at all, we only pay the trip fee and printing, but I am going to repeat myself now, we know that before hand in most cases, I don't get a signing agent unless I know that everything will close just fine. We don't have Sylvia's capital so therefore we try as much as we can to protect ourselves against no close deals.
We have a net 15 day policy so there is NO question we don't pay our closers.
AMY
| Reply by Teasa/NY on 5/23/05 7:30pm
Msg #39863
Get Over Your Bad Self
My God, run your business as you see fit and leave people who disagree with you alone. You started this rampage. My God with all your ranting who would work for you, hopefully not us.
| Reply by SamIam_CA on 5/23/05 3:50pm
Msg #39768
Re: This is how my company gets burned by other SS.
How do I sign up with you?
| Reply by PAW_Fl on 5/23/05 4:38pm
Msg #39800
Re: Personal + business responsibility: I'm with Sylvia and
>>> Well,...I don't know how you all get paid in full when a loan doesn't close?!?!?! <<<
Because that's the agreement we have with the lender, title, escrow, signing company. Under most business practices, if a job is completed as agreed, then equitable payment is due. Withholding pay because the loan doesn't fund, may actually be in violation of statutes and/or business practices, policy and procedures, unless specifically agreed to by both parties. Note I said BOTH parties, not three parties, just the agent and the agency that hired him/her. (Just an assumption on my part, as I have not had the need to investigate it... yet.)
>>> Have you all got paid the full amount agreed on EVERY SINGLE TIME when the loan didn't close????? <<<
Of course not, but the amount I was paid was an agreed to fee, not a "trip fee" of $50 when I may have spent more than 2 hours while the borrower is reviewing the terms and conditions with their loan officer.
>>> BUT the main reason you were at that closing was to close the loan, and if that didn't happen then you can't really expect to be paid in full! <<<
BUZZZZZZ. WRONG!! We are NOT there to close the loan. If the title company wanted the load closed at the table, they had best send an employee closer who can perform the functions of a loan closer. We are there to facilitate the signing of the documents, notarize the signatures as necessary and offer assistance on the process, not the specifics, of the transaction. That is a very small piece, but a significant piece, of the closing process. And having completed that piece, yes, I expect to get paid for it. Period. Title company employees are paid for their time, whether or not the loan closes. Of course, the title company may not get paid unless the loan funds, but the employees are still paid. In that regard, the hired independent consultant should also be paid as stated in their contract, whether it be written or verbal. (Verbal contracts can be very difficult to enforce, but typically, verbal contracts with reputable companies are not a problem.)
| Reply by InkWerk/CA on 5/23/05 1:03am
Msg #39634
Back in the day, signing services where started when a very successful "loan signer" or just "signer" could no longer handle the volume of work they received. In our case, "signings agents" where flooding the market at a ridiculous rate. We knew that when we turned down work, a cheaper notary would move into our spot or the title company would ask us to work for much less "like the other notaries". The Title companies would disappear for a couple weeks (after turning down work) then call us back saying they love our service but they have notaries working for so much less and would we meet their fee. So instead of continually going thru this cycle, we decided to never turn down work from our clients. We started out giving loads of signings to family and friends but eventually the volume grew to the point where my partner and I could no longer do signings. We had to do it! Best thing though, was being able to keep control of our pricing and staving off the cheap notaries...well until the cheap signing services started banging down our clients door. That's when we had to go national and sharpened our pencil.
One thing we have in our favor is we love to work and do not have kids yet. We also don't have a problem staying in the office until 10pm and starting the day over again at 6am. Usually my partner spends sat morning showing homes and taking calls from notaries and then is in the office later afternoon going over invoices, signing status, pay bills, etc. and I will update all the computers, manage the database, toner refills, printer maintenance, network maintenance, web maintained, CMA's, MLS updates, inventory, marketing strategy, etc. Then Sunday is spent checking and adding invoices to all the docs and calling notaries to find out how the signings went and catching up with the problem childs for the week. After the first week of the month we get to take a day or two off and let the employees run things but there are usually issues that pop up so the cell phone is always on. This has been going on for over 8yrs now on the signing side and has gotten easier with technology but the increase in volume and degradation of skilled "signing agents" has increased the hair pulling factor big time.
I have seen security guards, couriers, secretaries, and home makers start a signing company out of thin air because a spouse or friend had loads of work for them and some how they are still around. I have talked to companies who say they are a SS but only do 5-10 signing a day and have weekends off...this is not a signing service but I think thats the majority out there.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 5/23/05 1:35am
Msg #39635
This is a very interesting story. I am always interested in how people get involved in this business or businesses which compliment this one.
| Reply by thnotary_NY on 5/23/05 7:17am
Msg #39645
Do any business in this section of the woods.? I'd like to sign on if so.
|
|
