Posted by Sara_NV on 10/7/05 8:58pm
Msg #69469

Borrowers' Copies

Folks, I've had many instances when I've received loan dox directly from a title company that do not include copies to leave with the borrower. When I've asked, the title company has instructed me that making copies for the borrower is not necessary; they'll receive their copies once the loan is closed. Does this happen to any of you? If so, how do you handle the RTC? My thinking is if they don't have a copy of the RTC, they can't really cancel if they need to, or do they merely do it with a phone call and follow up with a signed RTC? Most of the signing services make me believe I'll face a firing squad if I don't make a complete set of copies for the borrowers! I appreciate your input/suggestions.

Reply by BrendaTX on 10/7/05 9:07pm
Msg #69472

Sara - if you can get through it, read a post I made at Msg #64989. This is kinda what I thought, too.

Reply by Sara_NV on 10/7/05 9:08pm
Msg #69473

I'll do that! Tx! n/m

Reply by Iris_WA on 10/7/05 9:11pm
Msg #69474

If I'm in error about this, I'm certain someone will correct me... (PAW_FL is excellent at the facts here).

Cancellation only needs to be done IN WRITING and in the hands of recipient BY MIDNIGHT of the third business day--it does not require (that I can recall seeing) the actual RTC document they signed.

They can use any piece of paper -- it must only be written and signed by ONE of the affected parties and in the hands of the designated recipient for that purpose by midnight of that third business day.

Of course, if you want to be a "good egg," you could make the number of copies X #Borrowers after you fill in the dates and leave with them, since it will contain the necessary information for them to be in compliance.

Just my opinion.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 10/7/05 11:19pm
Msg #69493

You are correct in that Title 12 USC only specifies that the borrower needs to notify the lender in writing within the 3 business day rescission period of their intention to cancel.

However, when dealing with borrowers copies, Title 12 stipulates that one of the conditions that must be met before the start of the rescission period, is the delivery of the required disclosures as identified in section 226.6, to the borrower. So, if no copies of the RTC, TIL and other "required" documentation is provided to the borrower at the time of signing, in my personal opinion, the clock won't start ticking until such documentation is provided to the consumer.

Therefore, any time a lender does not provide borrowers copies, the RTC cannot be initiated until such time as the disclosures are provided. If the lender doesn't provide those disclosures until after settlement, then I think they could be in a heap of trouble because they were not in compliance with Title 12. Section 226.15 states:

If the creditor has delivered any money or property, the
consumer may retain possession until the creditor has met its obligation
under paragraph (d)(2) of this section. When the creditor has complied
with that paragraph, the consumer shall tender the money or property to
the creditor or, where the latter would be impracticable or inequitable,
tender its reasonable value. At the consumer's option, tender of
property may be made at the location of the property or at the
consumer's residence. Tender of money must be made at the creditor's
designated place of business. If the creditor does not take possession
of the money or property within 20 calendar days after the consumer's
tender, the consumer may keep it without further obligation.

In summary, it is imperative that the lender, for its own protection, and to be in compliance with Title 12, needs to deliver the required disclosures at the time of signing. Of course, it is not our responsibility to ensure that this requirement is met, unless we are provided with the documents to be handed over to the borrowers.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 10/7/05 11:22pm
Msg #69495

Re: Borrowers' Copies - additionally ...

>>> They can use any piece of paper -- it must only be written and signed by ONE of the affected parties and in the hands of the designated recipient for that purpose by midnight of that third business day. <<<

Actually, the notice does not need to be in the hands of the lender by midnight, only sent by that time. Title 12 section 226.15 states:

To exercise the right to rescind, the consumer shall notify the
creditor of the rescission by mail, telegram, or other means of written
communication. Notice is considered given when mailed, or when filed for
telegraphic transmission, or, if sent by other means, when delivered to
the creditor's designated place of business.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 10/7/05 9:45pm
Msg #69478

Re: Borrowers' Copies - Sara

When this happens and title says they will send them copies, I make the necessary copies of the RTC and TIL and will make one of the HUD and Note and I tell them that the title company has indicated they will send them their copies.

Reply by BrendaTX on 10/7/05 10:28pm
Msg #69483

Re: Borrowers' Copies - Sara

Sylvia, In these no-copy packages in Texas that hooks the notary one way or the other.

There is ALWAYS a document that requires that I sign to the basics below taking place or the bwrs are required to sign and I am required to to notarize an affidavit that the bwrs sign at the end of the package that says [somewhat paraphrased from memory]:

"In reference to our loan with Lender So Good in the amount of $80,0000:

We Jack Bwr and Jill Bwr executed loan documents in the above-stated loan and we recieved two completed signed NRTC, a copy of the Truth in Lending...something, something regulation Z, as well as a completed set of all Loan Documents (yep capitalized) including but not limited to the Note, the Security Instrument, with all Riders to be attached thereto, and all Disclosures. (Still capitalized.)

Further we warrant and represent that these documents did not contain blanks...yada, yada."

And, the above document comes from the lender...then lender's package also says in size 152 pt type "SIGNING AGENT, WE WILL TAKE YOUR FIRST BORN AND YOU MAY NOT BE PAID FOR THIS ASSIGNMENT IF YOU DO NOT DO THIS PERFECTLY AND EXECUTE EVERY SINGLE DIRECTIVE PERFECTLY."

The signing service sort of shrugs and says, "But you don't have to take a copy for the bwr. The title co. does not really want you to because they will send a signed copy later."

Maybe this is a Texas thing, but I tell ya, I avoid these if possible. It's not right to tell them they have three days and not give them a copy - but JMHO.

Reply by Notary_CA on 10/7/05 11:13pm
Msg #69491

Re: Borrowers' Copies - Sara

Hi, If I get docs overnighted to me they have always contained a full copy set for the borrower. If I get them e-doc style I always make a full set to take for the borrower. I do this due to most of the reasons mentioned above, i.e. there are a lot of docs signed that say I have received this or that doc, and the signing company instructions also say if these directions are not followed payment may be reduced/stopped, etc. If you were to go through the papers and just copy those that say the borrower received one the time taken you could run a full set through your copier.

Just my thoughts here, but I think it makes you look good if you turn up with a copied set for the borrower in that you care what they are doing and do not give the impression you are hiding anything.....perception I have found is always on the negative so better to avoid it wherever possible.

Cheers

Reply by Anonymous on 10/7/05 11:15pm
Msg #69492

Re: Borrowers' Copies

Correct me if I am wrong, but in signing the Notice to Cancel, aren't the borrowers signing they have received X amount of copies (that is usually the wording). If I am told not to make copies, I make the copies of the Notice to Cancel anyway since how can the borrowers sign a statment that they are receiving copies when you have given them none? And, I will leave them a copy of the HUD also.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 10/7/05 11:49pm
Msg #69499

Re: Borrowers' Copies

They are also signing that along with the copies of the RTC each person on title is receiving a copy of the TIL.

Reply by Bonnie_FL on 10/8/05 10:07am
Msg #69550

I agree

That's exactly what I have always done. Copies of the RTC, TIL and HUD even if Lender/TC/SS tells me they will forward copies after the signing. But I too don't get the anon posting to send letter to Secretary of State. Don't you think a signed letter would give you more credibility? Why hide if you want to change or clarify something with the SOS.

Reply by Anonymous on 10/8/05 9:22am
Msg #69538

You should send a letter to your Secretary of State perhaps anonymous with examples and let them strengthen the requirements in your state. It will take time but make things better in the future.

Reply by BrendaTX on 10/8/05 9:31am
Msg #69541

**You should send a letter to your Secretary of State perhaps anonymous with examples and let them strengthen the requirements in your state. It will take time but make things better in the future**

Let's discuss this idea. I don't think the idea is a bad one except will anyone pay attention or put time into an anonymous tipster?

Can anyone post an example of when reporting something anonymously and got action in an arena that applies? (Not like reporting child abuse or a heinous crime/bodily endangerment, etc.)

Reply by PAW_Fl on 10/8/05 11:54am
Msg #69562

Send examples of what, to the Sec'y of State? In most states, the SOS has little or nothing to do with financial institution or title company licensing and enforcement. Here in FL, if falls under the Office of Financial Regulation and/or the Office of Insurance Regulation, both are part of the Department of Financial Services which is under the State CFO who reports to the Governor.

Reply by taxpro on 10/10/05 2:00pm
Msg #69727

I always supply a copy of the package to the borrower. The RTC usually states that they received 2 copies of the RTC and one copy of the TIL. And, what good is the 3 day period if they don't have copies of the docs to review during those 3 days? Isn't the purpose of the 3 day period to give them time to carefully read the docs, and to have the opportunity to have an attorney review them? How can they review the terms of the loan if they don't have a copy of the note, mortgage, Hud, etc? Also, the 3 day period wouldn't start until they receive the RTC and TIL. It's fine for the title company to send them a signed copy after funding, but they should still have a copy at signing. If I were the borrower, I'd insist on having a copy, or I wouldn't sign. Period.