Posted by Charles_CA on 10/3/05 12:44pm
Msg #68517

Disclaimer and comments

Greetings All:

I just wanted to set the record straight. I have no axe to grind here. I came to this business with the concept of just being a notary to help my local community with notary services. I got into signing because I kept getting asked to do signings and I took the certification and was lucky enough to find Notary Rotary which in my opinion is the most open board around for Notaries.

I have no pecuniary interest in organizing the notaries. I came to this board and the things I saw bothered me. People were not getting paid, they were getting abused by various entities because the notaries were badly fragmented and there was no one looking out for the interest of the notaries without other motives. Those who know me know that I have nothing against making money and I have done quite well for myself. I like to see business do well. If it wasn't for this board I wouldn't have an idea of some of the problems. I also have come to use the Modern Journal because of its superior design, and I support this board by buying my supplies here. I don't want to compete with Notary Rotary or anyone else who has formed a business for the sake of business.

I am looking for the formation of a true professional society, one that is set up for notaries by notaries and is designed to address notary problems with notary solutions. I will not and can not be a director or board member because I have too many other things on my plate right now. I would like to continue to be involved but right now I made an offer to be the incorporator which is a dirty thankless job to set up this organization. The incorporator has to present the paperwork to the varoious government entitites to get it approved. Because I ahve don this for corporation I ahve set up for myself I have some experience in getting it done. I have offered to be the incorporator to provide the catalyst for formation and to actually get things moving in a direction instead of just talking about it. I get frustrated by talk and like action.

The way I would like to see this work is for small local groups to get together and form a traditional organization based on Roberts' Rules of Order. I would like to see each of these organizations have a delegate and send thedelegates to a State convention which then would discuss what they would like to see happen and then select delegates to go to a National Convention to set the tone and the path for the organization as a whole. We don't need to wait until everybody is organized we can start with the existing groups and formalize them. But I am serious about this being a grass roots organization with only the needs of the Notaries in mind. I wouldn't like to see us sell supplies, after all the AMA doesn't sell pharmaceuticals or medical equipment. I would like to see this organization address the needs of the notaries and their specific business needs. There are plenty of directions right now that need to be addressed and addressed effectively. There will be special interests who will want to set the direction based on their own agenda and we all need to be watchful that this does not happen. I believe that we have a good group of people who are proactive and have shown it by going into business for themselves and now we need the backing of a true professional organization to continue.

I am open to any suggestions to do this and will help in anyway I can. I suggest that we establish an organizing board of directors and incorporate the society as a mutual benefit society and have elections as soon as possible to establish an operating board of directors and then they can direct, chage, adjust etc as needed.

Best regards,
Charles

Reply by BrendaTX on 10/3/05 12:49pm
Msg #68519

I think one thing to think of is that we are not just notaries, we are Professional Notaries and Notary Signing Agents. I bill myself as:


Professional Notary :: Legal, Mortgage and Title Industry Vendor ::
Deed Recordings :: Public Record Retrieval :: Field Service Agent ::
Litigation Support

There is a difference between being a notary in a law office or car lot and being a professional notary, right?

Reply by BrendaTX on 10/3/05 12:52pm
Msg #68521

Re: Disclaimer and comments - in other words...

We serve a specific purpose as notary professionals and not just looking to become better notaries by associating ourselves with notary organizations. We have done this so long that we forget that in some states being a notary and being a notary professional are two different things. In Texas, our trade is not as wide spread as it is in Fl. or Ca. I feel this applies to other states.

BTW, my comments are to agree with Charles, and not to disagree.

Reply by Charles_CA on 10/3/05 12:59pm
Msg #68524

You are right on as usual Brenda!

That was nicely said and set the direction where I believe we should be going. Thanks for saying it so succinctly.

Reply by Marlene_USNA on 10/3/05 4:28pm
Msg #68585

<There is a difference between being a notary in a law office or car lot and being a professional notary, right?>

No, there is no difference. A notary in a law office or in an automobile dealership may be as professional and proud of what they do as are notary signing agents.

This board is slanted toward the notary signing agent, but it does still say "The Premier Web Site for Professional NOTARIES" up top there. You do yourself and your profession a disservice to slight everyone but notary signing agents.

Reply by BrendaTX on 10/3/05 4:56pm
Msg #68598

Okay, let me say it differently:

There is a difference >>for the purpose of this discussion<< between a notary who works for someone else and provides notary services for her/his boss as a convenience to them versus a notary who is on their own and is working as a notary professional.

I won't even go there to argue about what I meant or how I meant it.

But, let me tell you this as I am going out the door...I have been both and there is a really big difference and anyone who has worked in both capacities can tell you that.

Sorry you thought I was slighting anyone because I was not.

Reply by Marlene_USNA on 10/4/05 9:42am
Msg #68717

Re: I understand now what you meant. . .

. . .I read it with a chip on my shoulder.

However, there are full-time notaries who are not employed by others and not notary signing agents. They don't have a voice on this particular board, which may be just as well. Every board shakes down to what the participants want it to be.

Reply by BrendaTX on 10/4/05 9:45am
Msg #68719

Re: I understand now what you meant. . .

Marlene,

Thank you for your reply.

Self-employed notaries is what I meant in this context. Thanks, again.

Reply by Roger_OH on 10/3/05 1:06pm
Msg #68526

Can we work with what is already in place?

Kudos to Charles for being interested enough to offer some suggestions. As Sylvia and Bob noted in a previous thread, it's not a new idea, and one that is not easy to implement nationwide. I agree with Bob that the basics of such an organization are already in place with The Signing Registry, created and run by NSAs for NSAs with several hundred members currently. It is a source of solid information and excellent training materials. They are established, incorporated, national in scope, and have credibility. I think TSR could be a jumping off spot toward becoming the type of group Charles envisions.

Reply by BrendaTX on 10/3/05 1:16pm
Msg #68530

Re: Can we work with what is already in place?

Maybe we can work with some of what is in place, but how do you re-shape it? Should we reshape a great organization like the TSR without KP's input?

Maybe KP does not want to. It is a wonderful organization that KP has in place with the SR! It is geared to establish professionalism, to teach and to mentor, but not so much geared as a body of professionals who market and establish a national "presence" which is what I think is what Charles is looking for. Refer back to what has been discussed...inspectors have a group like this...so do appraisers...why not notaries?

One does not replace the other. It's just moving the professionalism of our business up a notch...the SR is KP's creation and a very needed and helpful one. Thank God for the SR!

However, I think if it were going to ratchet up to become an organization such as is being discussed, it would already be there.

Charles is a bright guy and is hooked into more than just notary work. Let's let him brainstorm this out with us. Whether anything comes of it or not, I think all will be impressed and learn something by the knowledge that will be shared.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 10/3/05 1:23pm
Msg #68536

Re: Can we work with what is already in place?

Here's the benefit I'm looking for...an organization that keeps signing fees somewhat consistent and profitable for individual SA's, has an appeal to TC's and lenders (NOT signing services) because they have VALUE - good SA's, error free signings, etc etc. And most of all just by virtue of it's size and scope and value...makes the signing service and their $50 fees no longer a part of this business.

Very, very similar to Brenda's Texas network....remember that email I sent you B??? B - you know the kind of structure I'm talking about...taking that texas concept and making it a nationwide organization.

There's LOTS of "educational" associations - we don't need the education, we need the value of a network that keeps fees from being undercut, and protecting from the nonsense we have to put up with SS.

Does the signing registry do that?

Reply by Charles_CA on 10/3/05 1:35pm
Msg #68539

Re: Can we work with what is already in place?

I believe that Brenda and TG have got it! We have to be careful not to get into trouble with RICRA (federal racketeering) or to make it look like we are colluding to fix prices, the Realtor's had a bout with price fixing charges because the pricing looked so uniform. We each need to set out own prices based on our own needs but as both ladies said I have not seen any of the existing so-called "associations" ( am a member of NNA ANA and a few others) be representative of the members needs. They are not true representative professional organizations of Notaries. When was the last time you went to a regular members' meeting of any of the existing organizations, and when was the last time you voted on their policies or board of directors, when was the last time that any of these organizations lobbied on your behalf, they are not your representative because that is what representative organizations do. What makes you think they are looking out for your interests as a notary and no others? Do they even know what your interests are?

Reply by BrendaTX on 10/3/05 2:05pm
Msg #68542

Re: Can we work with what is already in place?

**We have to be careful not to get into trouble with RICRA (federal racketeering) or to make it look like we are colluding to fix prices, the Realtor's had a bout with price fixing charges because the pricing looked so uniform. We each need to set out own prices based on our own needs...**

Yes...we must all look at our own business and determine our prices. We must not attempt to fix prices!

Reply by TitleGalCA on 10/3/05 2:51pm
Msg #68546

Re: Can we work with what is already in place? price fixing

No...but we CAN, as a group, be sure of what the market will bear, what's fair, etc. and we certainly can have a united front agains $50 signings and ridiculous hoops we have to jump thru by SS.

Brenda's network...WORKS. The reason why it works is because those who utilize that network get VALUE...and the more notaries that belong to it, the wiser they are about industry practices, the more work they get, and reduces the odds of the "acceptance' of $50 signings.

I am not a believer in unions - be sure of that (I bleed red...not blue). A "network" or "organization" formed correctly could benefit everyone.

That's what I'm interested in, a "network" by NSA's, for NSA's. If I want education, there's plenty of places I can find that.

Reply by TCMN on 10/3/05 3:02pm
Msg #68550

Exactly TitleGal...I think we've talked about

networks and how mine works here in MN. It works and I know you have had a difficulty getting other NSA's to believe that in your area, but it will turn around in our industry and they will be left out. It makes sense and it works, just keep pluggin away at it.

There is far more than enough work out there and it's not going to change. Yes, maybe a lull here or there but that happens with everything.

Reply by TLR_KY on 10/3/05 2:55pm
Msg #68547

Re: Can we work with what is already in place?

Charles, I truly admire you for taking this and putting it in front for everyone to take note of. I too agree with both Brenda as well as TG from a couple of stand points. We are in a service business that has someone had it's reputation tarnished by some "get rick quick" schemes that I believe somewhat simplified our professional. Just as Brenda stated we do not want to go down the road of "price fixing" the problem of providing TC with a knowledgable professional that they can rely upon through a well respected organization that shows the heritage of what a true professional notary is. Just as the price of services differ throughout the nation for other services they differ within our profession. I can truly admit that I problably got over paid for my services when I came into this profession with little experience or training because my state did not require it and there wasn't any other compitition in my area. Now that I am somewhat "seasoned" I can really see the need for a voice in our profession. Thank.

Reply by TCMN on 10/3/05 3:21pm
Msg #68556

well said Charles...


We should have an entity that is a "watch-dog" of sorts and help equalize the playing field. Realtors did have a big issues with "fixing" prices and they have created recovery funds accounts to correct the wrongs done. It would be nice if we did have something that coudl work that way and maybe be able to have arbitration on a NSA's behalf instead of the fees of court. There is so many things that need to be thought of, worked out and structured that I said in a previous post, everyone should put down their thoughts and kep them for after a chat session is done and we can go from there.

Your thoughts?

Reply by TCMN on 10/3/05 2:55pm
Msg #68548

Re: Can we work with what is already in place?

I think that this organization would best service NSA's by being a governing "body" that helps NSA's have a voice and helps regulate standards/fees and support notaries in enforcement actions against non-paying companies (among other things). I don't think they should be a teaching facility because , yes we have those already out there. But I think they can educate the industry affiliates and partners more about our roll in process and the need to work together because we are an essential part of the process.

In regard to Charles' ideas of sending a "rep" from each state, that could work well, but we just have to be careful that what's good for one state might not be good for another because our responsibilities in each state (I don't believe) will ever be exactly the same. AND I don't think that we should jump to making a big decision to vote right away on who is going to do what and when , when not one of us knows WHAT it is that anyone will be doing or capable of doing. And to make someone decide BEFORE knowing what it is they are deciding on is irresponsible. Example, Brenda making her post about not committing until she could think things through and know what it is that all this will be.

That's just my honest opinion.

Thanks
Ty

Reply by Charles_CA on 10/3/05 4:18pm
Msg #68583

That is why we need to be grass roots

I suggested that we start with local and state organizations because each state has its own unique requirements and the organizations can only be effective if it addresses the needs of the notaries in each state. The state organizations need to unite to send delegate to a national organizations because there are issues that are national inscope. Getting paid in a time ly manner for instance. Getting paid across state lines. Has anyone thought about SSs playing games across state lines as having federal ramifications?? There are plenty of issues to be decided. I don't see this asbeing a linear orgnization as I see it as a parallell organization. I don't see that we have to have all of our issues deiced locally and then statewide and only then nationally. I see that we need to decide what our issues are, handle the local ones locally, handle the statewide ones on a statewide basis and handle the national ones on a national basis with a neural network type of communications between all levels. Perhaps because I've had experience developing neural networks it seems clear to me: am I missing something?

Reply by TCMN on 10/3/05 4:39pm
Msg #68589

Re: That is why we need to be grass roots

I don't have the background you do to judge if your missing anything. I just suggested that I thought it responsible to first determine exactly what the roll would be for each level. I think that you have to do that because if you don't and just start at the local level and start going to a goal and that doesn't mix with others at the next level of state it's a fight as to who's goal is more important, etc to the national.

I think that looking at what each level (local? state and national) has as their responsibility and then you know the boundries.
I'm not sure that's sounding rigth because I get it in my head that reading it myself will always sound liek what I know I'm trying to say.

First I don't think locally is that needed. Having regions in a state would be good 2-4 tops. Then one person who has the state level who has the ability to work with the governments one on one to get things heard or changed. That way the 3 region people could be back-ups to the one state rep. Then a national committee or board that would be back to a region in the country they would cover. And maybe some states need their own national rep. So it would be something like this:

each state has 1 state rep and 2-4 in-state region reps (and I guess that one COULD be the state rep)???
then at the national level you have anywhere from 10-15 on a committee, board, etc that would represent the country and work together for issues that are nationwide. That way not ONE committee rep should be too bias because they might have 3-5 states that they have to work towards a greater goal and yet still understand each of their individual state needs.

Did that make better sense? So as a collective needing 150-160 people working together to service the nation is a minimum. Am I off track or not getting something?

Or are you thinking that's too much? To be organized I think that's going to be needed. Thoughts?

Reply by PAW_Fl on 10/3/05 6:58pm
Msg #68613

Re: Can we work with what is already in place?

>>> There's LOTS of "educational" associations - we don't need the education, we need the value of a network that keeps fees from being undercut, and protecting from the nonsense we have to put up with SS.

Does the signing registry do that? <<<

The SR cannot keep fees from being undercut. NO organization can. Any organization that attempts to do that may be considered to be price fixing. As "independent" contractors, we set our own prices.

The conversation of fees has come up on every discussion forum, group, message board and newsgroup that I know of. There is no way to ensure prices. Period. We can only educate ourselves, our colleagues and our contractors with the tools we have at hand. That's our only weapon in the fight for equitable fees.

Along those same lines, no organization will be able to "control" or manage the nonsense some Signing Services and Title companies place on us. It's their call. It's our decision whether or not to accept them. An organization may be able to educate them on what good practices are acceptable the the organization, but can never dictate them.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 10/3/05 7:50pm
Msg #68627

Re: Can we work with what is already in place?

I agree with Paul,
And let us not forget that most companies see the NNA as the authority, and the NNA "suggested" fees - which had the effect of some companies lowering their fees to "fit in " with the NNA's guidelines.

Reply by TCMN on 10/3/05 7:56pm
Msg #68631

PAW, if I said anything about the fees and getting it "set"

then I will apologize because I do not think that can or should be any issue addressed by anyone other than the individual negotiating their contract with the company they are working with.

I think you agree with what I said about educating the industry and that might bring things to a more level playing field (I think I used equal things out) I think that this entity could recommend a standard and could help notaries with situations like non-payment but not do it for them. And notaries that didn't take those recommendations and put them forth in their practice might have little to stand one or be backed by. (example before everyone starts in on me....If it's recommemded to NOT accept the $40 or $50 signings because that is not a respectable fee and then a notary isn't getting paid they would have limited support because they would not be able to justify going completely against what the entity stands for) Is that explained enough?

I don't think that this is a fix all idea. I think that this is a get it better kind of idea that might help the industry correct itself with a little group shove from NSA's.

jmo

Reply by PAW_Fl on 10/3/05 8:06pm
Msg #68632

Re: PAW, if I said anything about the fees and getting it "s

I agree with you. It was TitleGal's message to which I responded, though it kind of makes a response to the whole thread. Fees can be openly discussed as to what one should accept as long as it is understood that the acceptance of any fee for any service by an "independent" contractor, must be solely the decision of the IC. No organization should even suggest the use of a general fee structure. Policy on fee acceptance is a different can of worms.

Reply by Anonymous on 10/3/05 4:46pm
Msg #68593

Would help with pay equality

I think it would be a good idea if we could find a way for pay equality. For example (this is why I'm posting anonymous), last week I had to beg and plead for a SS to meet my minimum fee. I was then informed that it would be a double closing. I said I would need double printing fee ($25 per set) and 1/2 of the price of the first signing fee. The person "had to get approval". He then talked me down by $15. Total of $130 to drive 65 miles each way, print two sets of docs, etc. When I got to the closing, the borrowers were angry that I was getting $365 for the signing. I explained that the signing company gets the fees and that there is more involved than me printing off the docs, signing and returning. When it got to the second there was another fee of $165 for notary fees for the second. The SS charged the borrowers $505 for the closing and only paid me $140--and I had to beg to get that fee.
They never saw the docs--I downloaded from a TC website and TC paid the shipping.

That is why I agree we need to do something.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 10/3/05 7:30pm
Msg #68623

Re: Would help with pay equality

>>> He then talked me down by $15. Total of $130 to drive 65 miles each way, print two sets of docs, etc. <<<

Don't make it sound like the SS held a gun to your head, tied your hands behind your back and stuffed your socks in your mouth. You ACCEPTED a lesser fee. That's all. Not the end of the world. Everyone has their price. Some are willing to negotiate, others aren't. An organization of "independent" contractors cannot negotiate for you.

Reply by CarolynCO on 10/3/05 8:17pm
Msg #68637

Re: I agree with Paul

We are not employees. We are independent contractors/business owners. We set our own fees.

*He then talked me down by $15.*

You are the one that gave in. Granted, had you not, the signing could have possibly been given to someone else that would accept the reduced fee -- but, had you stuck to your guns and your fee, the signing might still have been given to you. As Paul said, no one forced you to take it.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 10/3/05 8:14pm
Msg #68634

I think there is some background information that many people here are simply not aware of. First, the Signing Registry has gone through all this a few years ago. There was even a "marketing" group assembled. We had a discussion, along the same lines as developing state representatives. All these things were evolving, but it takes a higher degree of dedication that many people envisioned and it kind of fell off. The information is still there within the SR. That, coupled with the American Society of Notaries (ASN) which really does look after the notary and not the dollar, though does not offer a whole lot for the signing agent, is exactly what you all have been talking about. Brenda mentioned that KP (Kathy Poston) may not want this. Well, let me tell you, that the Signing Registry may be owned and operated by Kathy, the direction the SR takes is up to the membership.

My concern, which has been echoed by a few other SR members who have "been there, done that, and got the t-shirts to prove it", is that it is a MAJOR commitment by those who belly up to the bar. I appreciate the honesty of the folks here in their forth rightfulness and truthfulness about how much they can offer. This is always the problem with any big project.

This thread reminded me to pull out my "Project Life Cycle" chart, which has the following bullets:

Wild enthusiasm

Disillusionment

Total confusion

Search for the guilty

Punishment of the innocent

Praise and honors for the non-participants

I've been a part of many, many project that follow this "plan". Usually only to the second or third bullet. I don't want to see this happen again. I suggest that maybe Charles, or TitleGal or someone with good organizational skills approach Kathy (see note below) with this to see if the SR just may be the vehicle to make it all work. Besides, Kathy would be able to provide much information about the history of this project, from it's earlier conceptualization.

NOTE: The above information has been provided with permission. However, Kathy will not be able to respond to any requests for the time being. She has asked me to field any pressing questions for her.