Posted by Anonymous on 10/21/05 9:36am
Msg #71681

Why I do $50 Signings--Continued.

I started that thread the other day. All the responses were interesting.

No I am not incompetent. Former bank examiner. Loan officer. BA in Economics. Masters in finance. Retired.

My costs. $50 used HP printer works great. $800 Compaq laptop, 2 years old. A brothers fax machine so old I cannot remember when I bought it(at least 10 years ago). I receive faxes into my computer via K7.net(it's free). AOL account. I have that anyway to communicate with friends and family. All sunk costs. I have a car. Sunk cost. I have cable. I have a phone(Vonage $25 unlimited per month) and cellphone($50 per month). Sunk cost. Drive less than 10 miles. I am in one of the top 10 metros. Live right down town. Sometimes, I can walk to signings. I have even take the bus or train. Fedex, UPS, and DHL all within 2 blocks of my building.

I mainly do overnight documents. So I have few incremental costs. I charge for edocs, but it is rare. Toner from tonerkits.com(Thanks Art_MD). Paper from Sam's Club, legal $2.50 per ream. Notary commission, E&O and my Stamp averages to $60 per year(since they are multi year agreements). So that works out to be about one signing.

1) Receive phone call and accept assignment where ever I happen to be.
2) Phone call to borrower to introduce myself.
3) Phone call to confirm receipt of documents.
4) Go to assignment.
5) Drop documents on the way home.
6) Fax, email or call confirmation to client.

If I did not do $50 signings, I could not write off my printer, computer, aol, fax machine and auto expense, telephone and cellphone(I would not have the notary stamp, E&O, notary application fee so that is a wash). Thus, $50 signings help me recoup otherwise sunk costs.

So as in all economics, as long as the marginal profit exceeds the marginal cost you should take the assignment, especially in a COMMODITY MARKET. As in all competitive business situtations, the low cost provider is wins!

Of cost you will always sell your services for more if you can, it increases your marginal profit.
Alternatively, if you place a higher value on something else, you will do that. For example, if you are tired, $50.00 might not be worth it to you. In other words, you have placed a higher value on leisure.

Finally, if you have to wait around all day to get edocs, (while overnight documents are here by 10:30am). You don't know if they are coming, make a ton of phone calls to the signing company, title company, loan officer and borrowers, wait two hours because docs are late, scramble to print them, have to check them, have to make borrowers copies, use up supplies etc. Have your schedule thrown off for the rest of the evening, causing other appointments to be rescheduled. Do you get paid for your time? Even if you recover your printing costs. (An hour making phone calls $10, two hours late waiting around $10+$10, a hour downloading, printing, double checking all pages printed are correct $10, assume magically, the borrower can now meeting immediately to suit you when things are now behind schedule $0(if not add another $10 for waiting around), printing costs 100 pages times =200 pages at .10/page $20.00) that would be $60 right there. Not to mention the stress.

$50.00 overnight signing are a piece of cake in comparison.

If I turn down the assignment, I have zero dollars or if I try to raise the price(sometimes I do, but sometimes they go away and do not come back), then I get zero and my time is perishable....I can never get it back. Total time invested in a $50 overnight....two hours or $25 per hour, beats working at Walmart or McDonalds.

Economics would tell you, one could make the same arguement at $45 per signing or $40, $30, $25....etc down to $.01. Thus, it is up to each notary to determine where their priceline is(every heard of a company called Priceline before). So if you set your price line at $55, and I set mine at $50, I might get all the business and you get zero.

Perhaps you live in a higher cost city, perhaps you have less competition and can set your price higher than $50. $50 in NYC or LA is not the same as Oklahoma City. Perhaps you have to drive 10 miles to drop at Fedex. Perhaps you bought expensive new equipment. Perhaps retirement does not cover your healthcare costs. Thus, your costs are different than mine.

I think I have a pretty clear handle on my economics. As a former National Bank Examiner. There have been no complaints about my work. Chances are I can compute the interest rate correctly on Federal Truth in Lending. Can you? Doesn't matter, it is not really required of you. Am I perfect no. I have forgotten a stamp and missed a date on occassion. Not yet this year(knock on wood), but last year I did.

The signing market is not one market. It is a segmented market. The $50.00 signing has its place too. A lot of people complain about Walmart, but millions shop there every week!

Note, this memo was NOT titled why you should do $50.00 signings, it is titled and explains why I do $50 signings. Might I add profitably.

Reply by LawrenceOK on 10/21/05 9:57am
Msg #71688

As long as YOU are comfortable with your fees, then nothing else matters does it. It's really no one else's business what I am willing to accept for my services. I personally wont accept low fees for my experience and professionalism.

Reply by PA_Notary_II on 10/21/05 10:04am
Msg #71690

Let's just not respond to his posts...

If he had gotten his PHD it would have meant Piled Higher and Deeper !

Reply by SLP_VA on 10/21/05 10:31am
Msg #71696

Re: Let's just not respond to his posts...

I hear where you're coming from Anon, and I don't down you for it all. You seem to be an intelligent man and you know what you're doing when it comes to you being a signing agent and knowing what you can and cannot charge. Everyone is not retired, thus the comments from me and other people responding to your original thread. We do treat this is a profession, not saying you don't, but I think we take it a little more seriously because we do it as a way of make a living and not for extra cash to buy gifts as you stated previously.

Good luck to you.

Reply by O/CNotary on 10/21/05 10:48am
Msg #71702

You dont have to explain to anyone how you run your biz &...

what you do with your earnings are also no ones business. If you are happy with making $50 thats what matters. True, it does lower the standard of what others can charge and thats where the issue for those of us that know our services are worth more, comes in to play. However, I am sure there are many notaries that do exactly what you are doing, you are just one that is willing to openly admit it. I once saw a post where several "veterans" admitted, that under the right circumstances, they too, will do a $50 signing. Its too bad that what was once a very profitable venture has now become so competitive, but now with so many having jumped on the band wagon, that is what was bound to happen. I am curious though about where you are located. Please post your area/state.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 10/21/05 11:26am
Msg #71708

I too am retired. I guess it depends on how much you think

your time is worth or how bad you need the money or if you have any hobbies and other things going on in your life. Time is money also and it doesn't sound like you account for your time.

I personally decided when I got into loan signings, that I wasn't going to try to undercut everyone else in the area. Yes, I did take a couple of $50 loan signings to get my feet wet, but now I stick to my basic fee schedule and mileage rates. You see, I want to be hired because I am good, not because I am cheap. An ego thing, I guess. Things did start slowly, but as I have stated on this board, I exceed my income goals most of the time and have had to refer signings to others because I have had too many in a day. It's slow this month, but after EOM, I should still hit goals. Then I will go fishing .......

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 10/21/05 11:29am
Msg #71709

I should have added ...

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 10/21/05 11:32am
Msg #71711

Re: I should have added ...

I never have all those issues with edocs. I find them quick, easy and highly profitable. You just need the proper software and know who you are working for. I would rather do one $150 edoc signing than 3 $50 overnight signings. The one signing takes a lot less time than the 3 $50,s and time is money.

Reply by Anonymous on 10/21/05 11:50am
Msg #71714

Re: I should have added ...

I would also say that if you are retired, and well off you would maybe even be at the higher end of the fee schedule since you can turn them down and be just fine. You don't need to work, you only work to fill up some time, therefore you only do closings with higher fees. And, again to anyone that charges $50. Look at what the signing service is getting paid. You are doing more work and getting $50, they are doing less work and getting $200 or more.

Reply by SSEmobile on 10/21/05 12:26pm
Msg #71728

Re: I should have added ...

Interesting information about how things work for your case, thanks for the input.

Would I decline a $50 signing?

If I have one for the same (or close to the start or finish) time frame that paid more, YOU
BET! And I AM worth paying me a more appropriate rate, believe me.

Regarding your comment ".two hours or $25 per hour, beats working at Walmart or
McDonalds"............
SURE, if you're getting 40 hours of work per week at that rate! I don't see how you can
possibly be doing that if you count just travel time alone, much less the time it takes to
properly get two loans signed for and notarized.

Regarding your comment "So if you set your price line at $55, and I set mine at $50, I
might get all the business and you get zero" .........
Hardly. Anybody calling you or me understands that the $50 per signing fee has been
around for DECADES. Oh SURE, they'll give you the job at that rate if that's what you
expect and take, obviously they would rather NOT pay more if they can get away with it.

The current hourly rate for professional agent of the court, certified as a signing agent
notary, mobile and dealing with gas prices and traffic, including computer costs (upfront
and ongoing), printer costs (upfront and ongoing), internet costs, cellular and office phone
costs, NONE of these has gone down in the last four years, much less decades, if far
higher if measure with a proper "yardstick".

The $50 signing was good money in the 70's. Compare that to the professional costs of
everything else and your equation of being "satisfied" with $50 signings is just
shortchanging everyone else in the business, and frankly doing the business in general no
good.

Of course, yes, I'll do them, under the right circumstances. Send me the physical docs to
be signed the day after I get them, and make that location of the appointment less than 30
miles away from my office, sure, send 'em over! Happy to oblige!

I might even do more than that for the $50 if it's the first time you call me, just to show you
how good I am at my job. But if that happens, please note the real invoice I send, with my
real cost, giving you the "first time customer" discount, and call me again with that price.
See how it goes when you do ..........

But TRUST me, I'm tracking companies who want to do business at a 70's rate, and those
who always pay fairly.

Guess who gets my attention ................................... :o]

Reply by MistarellaFL on 10/21/05 12:16pm
Msg #71721

Re: I should have added ...

I agree with you, Glen. Most of my appts. are E-docs and I never have a problem with them.
I have good hardware and software and know how to use them properly. My quality of assignments/companies that hire me has improved as well. I can easily accomodate 2 signings per evening at that rate, and 1 in the morning or early afternoon. So, now, if I have 3 signings, I make $450 vs your $150, with less headaches and more time/fuel/peace of mind.
And that's all I have to say about that........

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 10/21/05 12:06pm
Msg #71716

Re: You dont have to explain to anyone how you run your biz

So by your own post you are an admited lowballer who wont raise your rate to what your worth because you might loose a little business to other lowballers. Also you didn't factor in equipment replacement, paper, toner, fuel, bus or train fare, or taxes in your $25 per hour earning (your profit isn't $25 per hour even with your "sunk" costs). And how about all the little business expenses and office supplies like pens, clips, files, marketing supplies (web sites, promo items, etc) etc, though they are small over the course of a year they do add up thus bringing down your profit even more. That is the key, to decide what your profit should be and set your rate accordingly.

"if you place a higher value on something else, you will do that. For example, if you are tired, $50.00 might not be worth it to you. In other words, you have placed a higher value on leisure."
No I don't place a higher value on leisure. I am earning an "income" to help support my family. I do this part time as a second income for our household. I don't want to nor is it profitable to work at McDonalds for minimum wage. When you factor in all business expenses $50 signings aren't earning you a profit of much more than you will make at McD's.

Reply by PA_Notary_II on 10/21/05 12:57pm
Msg #71736

Like I said.....

Why respond to this fellow and feed his ego ?? There is an unterior motive here somewhere,
but I haven't figured it out yet. Why would a person post this rot ?? Is he bragging, does he just want to start a flame, is he so egocentric that he has to display his education (or lack of it) is he another Luis who actually works for a $50 SS or does he have so-o-o much time in retirement that he comes here to waste ours. Why is he posting anonomously?? I'd like to go on, but I have 3 closings to attend from 4 to 7 pm which will pay me $450.00.....maybe Anon can occupy himself/herself computing my hourly rate.

Reply by Brenda/CA on 10/21/05 2:07pm
Msg #71749

Re: Like I said.....

PA: I agree with you! He certainly seems to display a lack of intelligence. Maybe the BA and Masters could be best used with the Wizard of OZ or better yet the Wizard of IQ"IF I only had a brain". Anon, if you are going to come on here with your excuses for being cheap why don't you identify yourself. I doubt everything you say. A well educated person, that retired from the positions you claim to have held would have at least a comfortable or better retirement pension. You previously described yourself as taking cheap assignments to buy gifts. I am simply trying to explain to you that a person that accepts $50.00 assignments, specifically one that brags about it and requests that they all keep being sent his way, makes it harder for his fellow notaries to be able to set their fees. The SS if you ever read the fees on the docs are getting $250-$350 or in some cases more, and you are doing all the work. Why don't you open your own SS and then you can hire your own $50.00 notaries, since this figure seems rational to you.

Reply by BrendaTX on 10/21/05 2:00pm
Msg #71748

Re: Why I do $50 Signings-it's what *I* think of you

**No I am not incompetent. Former bank examiner. Loan officer. BA in Economics. Masters in finance. Retired.**

Congrats to you on your former career and education. My life is very small in comparison. And, you have your opinion, and the rest of us have ours.

If you are for real, you are what I have come to think of as a rat or a scab...albeit an educated and very competent one! Now we know that you are a scab with a sheepskin or two...a retired scab...a scab with a pension...a scab who understands economics...now, that's a scab to look up to! You are obviously a superior scab. (LOL - Not!)

I applaud America and your right to take $50 signings...of course, if it works for you more power to you.

By all means, you should operate as you see fit in our excellent and wonderful society of free enterprise, but I don't like your way.

**Note, this memo was NOT titled why you should do $50.00 signings, it is titled and explains why I do $50 signings. Might I add profitably. **

Now, remember, Crusty, this is not about what YOU think of you...it's what *I* think of you!

( This last comment is a freebie: I think you are full of bull. )

Reply by LilyMD on 10/21/05 4:01pm
Msg #71767

Re: Why I do $50 Signings-it's what *I* think of you

Brenda, as usual you've said what I am thinking, but with lots more tact!!

Reply by NY_TaxLady on 10/21/05 11:35pm
Msg #71828

It was asked before and I'll ask again where are you located? It seems you post as anonymous and also state less. WHY?

Reply by Anonymous on 10/22/05 8:25pm
Msg #71944

Pick one. Atlanta, Chicago, Denver, Kansas City, St. Paul. It is one of those.

I am located downtown in a major metropolitan city. I have not stated why because I will take more than $50 when I can get it. I do not want to identify myself so Signing companies automatically know that I will do $50 signings. My point is when I cannot get more or I know from this board that it is a $50 signing company, if I am available, I take the assignment the overnight document assignment and that it can make economic sense. I know a lot of notaries in my area and they do not want to admit it at first blush, but as I have gotten to know them over the years they take them as well. When I am busy with other things, I have even referred the signing companies to other notaries in my area. Occassionally, I see one and get a thank you for referring them.(Hmmm. They must have done them as well.)

I have worked for a number of title companies and signing companies over the years. My knowledge and skill as a notary does not change based on the fee I charge. God forbid I have done a couple loan packages for friends for free. Does that mean it was worthless and I made mistakes? One would almost think so from the tone of some of the responses here, but that type of logic is a non sequitur.

I tried to explain my logic, why it works for me. So many, but not all, have reacted here without right rejection of what I have had to say, that is not logic at all.

I guess you might feel better if you accepted $100 per signing, but what if you are in Manhattan, NY, perhaps even $100 is not enough. I do not know. I do not live there.
If your costs are $150, then as an economist or rational person, I would tell you not to do them.

I suspect that most notaries here charge varying rates to clients. Does that mean so time you do a better job and other times a lesser job? I assume you never do a lesser job on notorial acts, so what part do you do the lesser job on? Do you snap at the signing company? Are you rude to the borrowers? No, I suspect that you do not do that either.

Great, let say you proudly charge $75 and drive 25 miles one way. At the federal government milage rate around $.50 it cost you 25*.50*2 equals $25. So $75-50 equals $50.00. I can walk to signing in my neighborhood. So go ahead and be proud you are charging $75, but you are no better off.

A number of notaries here flat out come down against $50.00 signings. My point was simple.
In my case I can do them profitably at a rate of return acceptable to me. Then, people without knowning me, took issue with my skill, my location, my education, whether I knew my costs etc. etc.

I said I enjoy meeting the people on these assignments. Let's say I do it as a hobby. Now, I am responsible for destroying the living of all the people that are trying to do it as a full time living. So we have tons of hobby farmers in this country, should all the big farmers get up in arms and accuse the hobby farmers of destroying farming as a way of life? Has a friend every fixed your car? Should the employees of Mr. Goodwrench hold you responsible for destroying their livelihood as autorepair professionals? Get real!

I laid out a logical case as to: Why "I" (note the quotes around the word I) do $50 signings.
I am trying to incite a riot. I am not trying to upset you. It was merely a counter to the flat out rejection by many on $50 signings almost a given that these were money losing propositions, while I tried to illuminate and logically explain why they work profitabbly for me.

Logic is logic and it stands on it own. 2+2 is 4 whether you like it or not. My case stands that $50 signings can work profitably for me. Q.E.D.

Reply by BrendaTX on 10/22/05 9:43pm
Msg #71954

**I tried to illuminate and logically explain why they work profitabbly for me. **

In the opinion of some (for various reasons) your logic lacks substance--you cannot logically compare the situations you did and arrive at a conclusion that is similar.

And, some probably don't find your illuminations to be all that bright.

The bottom line is if you are comfortable doing it, do so and do it often.

Don't defend it...but if it's all that great, I gotta wonder why you'd promote it...unless you think it would be good for many to do the same, and therein lies the problem with the growing pool of people who will take the $50 signings. It will catch up with you if you want to make a business of this but if you are just earning a little extra, well, who can blame you?

But, I don't like what you are doing.

You did not start a riot. You just found out that others don't agree with you. You have a right to take the signings and you are not in business full time so you don't care about your business plan or your projections.

You are a problem to people in business at this seriously because there are a pool of people like you are just grabbing the extra few bucks. And, you have lowered the fees expected. You are watering down the trade. A more likely scenario to compare for the purpose of logic is this...it's kind of like if all the non-retired people/the working aged people decided to lobby to lower senior citizen benefits in favor of giving to college aged kids. Or maybe we non-retired people would like to see everyone get some of the senior's benefits set aside for we younger ones to get a new computer each year. Hey...the money's there...let's just cut the throat of the retired people to help us send our kids to school or get new electronic toys.

That's what you are doing when you do not keep your fees up. But, it's a free enterprise country we live in, a democracy, and a place where we can all say what we think.

And, that's what I think of your approach. Let me enlighten you to understand that it's not all about YOU. And you are not the ONLY one who is doing this. YOU are just one of many.

So, if you post endorsing the $50 signing fee and why you take them...well...you are going to find that you are absolutely wrong in the opinion of some and you won't get kudos for your efforts.

Now, that's *MY* opinion and note that there are *'s are around the MY.

Reply by Brenda_CO on 10/22/05 10:01pm
Msg #71955

Here's the thing....I started out doing this part time...just for a little extra income. Then, I decided I really, really enjoy the job and will do it full time. But, unlike you, I dont' want to contine doing this low-ball signings when I can make what I am really worth. I became more educated to fees when I started seriously checking out this website and reading, reading, reading. I will not sell myself short and work like a crazed person doing edocs, signing, tons of faxs backs anymore. Now, I take good assignments, where there is a phone call or one single fax to let the company know the closing is complete and the tracking number. Thanks to all of these wonderful and experienced folks on this website, I am working less and making more $$.....and really loving my work!!