Posted by Art_MD on 10/5/05 2:09pm
Msg #69007

where does state juristiction end in the ocean?

If you are on a cruise ship out of say Florida, how far out does the state juristiction end - 3,20 50 miles? At what point do you stop being able to notarize a document? Perform marriage?


Art

Reply by Frances MacDonald on 10/5/05 2:20pm
Msg #69011

In Florida used to be 3 miles. Somebody told me State changed it to 1 1/2 but would say 3 miles is still safe. Unless there's some clause for certain documents..don't know that one. The international marker is 3 miles though which is why you have to wait on a cruise ship before you can start gambling...can't do it until in international waters. You going on a cruise? LOL Lucky you!

Reply by Charles_CA on 10/5/05 2:21pm
Msg #69012

Last time I got involved with this was quite a while ago but it is my understanding that federal jurisdiction covers navigable waters to the mean high tide high tide mark which means that most ocean beaches fall under federal jurisdiction. I also know that I do a lot of weddings at the beach. Also in land locked lakes local jurisdiction ends at the high water mark under the great ponds law. Shipboard on the high seas (outside our 200 mile sovriegn jurisdiction) the captain is the lord and master and whatever he says goes including weddings. As I understand it weddings are only lega outside the 200 mile limit if performed by the captain, or endorsed by the captain. This is my recollection only and I suggest that you contact a maritime attorney since maritime law is quite arcane.

Reply by Art_MD on 10/5/05 2:30pm
Msg #69017

I know that in some cases state juristiction is 3 miles. i.e. fishing. In 1995 It was legal to catch redfish in state waters - 1 per person. It was illegal to catch them in federal waters - outside 3 miles. So, when we went fishing, we made sure we didn't keep any redfish if we caught them before getting into fed waters - big fine if caught with one in possession in fed waters. Only kept them if caught on the way inside 3 mile limit.
As to ripirarian rights - thats a whole different ballgame. States are totally different - worse than notary laws.

Art

Reply by PAW_Fl on 10/5/05 8:02pm
Msg #69081

For purposes of both international and domestic law, the boundary line dividing the land from the ocean is called the baseline. The baseline is determined according to principles described in the 1958 United Nations Convention on the Territorial Sea and the Contiguous Zone and the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (LOS Convention), and is normally the low water line along the coast, as marked on charts officially recognized by the coastal nation. In the United States, the definition has been further refined based on federal court decisions; the U.S. baseline is the mean lower low water line along the coast, as shown on official U.S. nautical charts. The baseline is drawn across river mouths, the opening of bays, and along the outer points of complex coastlines. Water bodies inland of the baseline—such as bays, estuaries, rivers, and lakes—are considered “internal waters” subject to national sovereignty.

Reply by Mike_NJ on 10/5/05 2:26pm
Msg #69016

Last I knew it was 3 miles, Gambing boats go out and open the casino when they are 3 miles out. They are no longer in US waters.

Reply by Charles_CA on 10/5/05 3:00pm
Msg #69026

No offense, but that is not the definition of international

waters. The ancient tradition was 3 miles because in maritime law it was considere the "cannon shot" distance that countries could control waters. The true difnition is not quite that simple but the US considers its jurisdiciton to extend 200 miles and has for quite some time except in the case where there are other territories involved. Rencdently we have had problems with Canada regarding the rnad Banks and the area of the Bahamas os obviously less than the 200 mile limit and becomes the condition set yb international treaties with the vaious countries. For a very good discussio of international waters please see http://www.un.org/Depts/los/index.htm

Reply by Becca_FL on 10/5/05 3:25pm
Msg #69033

It's 3 miles out on the Atlantic (East) side of Florida and 1 or 1 1/2 mile on the Gulf side. I just heard or read that somewhere recently, I can't remember where, though.

When I'm on my SOs boat and we're off the dock, I read tons of boating mags and cruising guides. My SO is on a "guy only" trip down to Elliott key for the Columbus Day Ragatta this week and next. I do wish I was with him! Our next big trip will be in January, then off to the Bahamas in June/July for the Abaco Ragatta.

Reply by Charles_CA on 10/5/05 3:42pm
Msg #69034

I really don't mean to be argumentative but I don't believe that the answer is quite as cut and dried. There may be overlaps in jurisdiction for various types of situations. I don't know where It would end for a notary. But I do know that the home where I live in here in Fort Bragg is one mile up the Noyo river, considered navigable, and if I do anything with my riverbank and benchland I fall under the jusrisdiction of the US Corps of Engineers and federal laws. If you check the UN website they have a number of resources regarding the treaties bicause it is now by treaty and has been since the 50's. I am sure that somethings happen at three miles, but I also know that ultimitately if you want to get outside the jursidiciton of the US its 200 miles. I am also sure that there are others like cities and counties who exercise some jusridiction over the waters including police powers.

Reply by Charles_CA on 10/5/05 3:50pm
Msg #69035

Becca, I just re-read the thread and I may have lost

track of the original subject. What is it they say, the mind goes first!

Reply by Danny_FL on 10/5/05 5:27pm
Msg #69043

The legal definition of "Florida waters" is somewhat complex, but is generally stated as three geographic miles from the coastline seaward on the Atlantic Ocean and nine geographic miles from the coastline seaward on the Gulf of Mexico.

Danny

Reply by Becca_FL on 10/5/05 6:42pm
Msg #69065

Thanks Danny!

I knew the Atlantic & Gulf were not the same. I feel so smart now.

Reply by BLE on 10/5/05 7:23pm
Msg #69069

Jones Act Rule?

I thought the Jones Act governed international law on Gulf waters. The Jones Act claims 3 miles if I remember correctly.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 10/5/05 8:15pm
Msg #69084

Re: Jones Act Rule?

The Merchant Marine Act of 1920 (aka Jones Act) governs shipping and other transportation laws. It doesn't define international, federal or state limits and boundaries. It requires that products shipped between U.S. ports must be transported in ships that were built in the United States, U.S. flagged, and manned by U.S. personnel. The act has been waived most recently because of Katrina to allow for foreign flagged vessels to transport goods between US ports.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 10/5/05 7:57pm
Msg #69079

STATE SEAWARD BOUNDARIES IN THE UNITED STATES
(0 to 3 Nautical Miles; 0 to 9 Nautical Miles for Texas, Florida’s Gulf Coast, and Puerto Rico)
In the 1940s, several states claimed jurisdiction over mineral and other resources off their coasts. This was overturned in 1947, when the Supreme Court determined that states had no title to, or property interest in, these resources. In response, the Submerged Lands Act was enacted in 1953 giving coastal states jurisdiction over a region extending 3 nautical miles seaward from the baseline, commonly referred to as state waters. For historical reasons, Texas and the Gulf Coast of Florida are an exception, with state waters extending to 9 nautical miles offshore. (Note: A nautical mile is approximately 6,076 feet. All references hereafter in this Primer to miles are to nautical miles.) Subsequent legislation granted the U.S. Virgin Islands, Guam, and American Samoa jurisdiction out to 3 miles, while Puerto Rico has a 9-mile jurisdictional boundary.

THE TERRITORIAL SEA (0 to 12 Nautical Miles)
Under international law, every coastal nation has sovereignty over the air space, water column, seabed, and subsoil of its territorial sea, subject to certain rights of passage for foreign vessels and, in more limited circumstances, foreign aircraft.

For almost two hundred years, beginning with an assertion by Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson in 1793, the United States claimed a territorial sea out to 3 miles. In 1988, President Reagan proclaimed a 12-mile territorial sea for the United States, consistent with provisions in the LOS Convention. The proclamation extended the territorial sea only for purposes of international law, explicitly stating that there was no intention to alter domestic law.

(Source: Primer on Ocean Jurisdictions: Drawing Lines in the Water, final report by the U.S. Commission on Ocean Policy) You can visit their website at http://www.oceancommission.gov/

Reply by Arthur Walsh on 10/5/05 8:17pm
Msg #69085

Paw, want to discuss beachfront property ?

I figured I'd get some good discussion going.
Now we can get into discussion of property lines on shore property.

In the 70s a storm hit the coast of new jersey and washed away 100 yds of sand dunes and all vegetation on them. At that time state property was defined as extending to the vegetation line. A home was partially destroyed. The owner wanted to rebuild but was told that he was on state land - the next vegetation line was further from the water than his house!!!!!
Smart man - got a bulldozer, rebuilt the dunes and planted vegetation. Applied for his permit claiming he was on his own property. The state was not amused. They said they were going to remove the dune he had built. He said you better not " there are plants growing on that dune that are on the plant endangered species list. I have notified the appropriate US goverment agencies" And he had. The dune remained, he rebuilt the house, and paid a fine for disturbing endangered plants.

In Mississippi, a river runs thru a person property. He doesn't own the water - the state does. He owns the river bed. So, you can canoe, raft, tube etc. but if you get out of your craft and stand on the river bed you are trespassing!!!


Art

Reply by PAW_Fl on 10/5/05 8:28pm
Msg #69089

Re: Paw, want to discuss beachfront property ?

Isn't "Sea" law wonderful. Almost as confusing as anti-trust laws. (Okay, maybe even more so.)

Reply by BrendaTX on 10/5/05 8:12pm
Msg #69083

I am sure "The Polly Case" has something to do with this...

Reply by PAW_Fl on 10/5/05 8:25pm
Msg #69088

You remember the "Polly Case" ...

Reply by PAW_Fl on 10/5/05 8:32pm
Msg #69091

Re: You remember the "Polly Case" ... (oops)

pressed the "enter" key too soon.

Anyway, you remember all the way back to 1800? Or did you have relatives on that seized ship?

Reply by BrendaTX on 10/5/05 8:41pm
Msg #69094

Re: You remember the "Polly Case" ...

NO, I don't remember but I like reading supreme court cases that came right after the Framers did their handiwork. Marbury vs. Madison, and all that jazz...