Posted by CaliNotary on 9/4/05 9:24pm
Msg #63728

California notary saturation perspective - Joan Bergstrom

This response was posted in another thread but I think it's worthy of it's own thread.

The response was to Joan Bergstrom who stated quite ignorantly, for the zillionth time:

"Calif has the lowest ratio of notaries per capitia and yet there are people who post that we are over saturated with notaries in this state."

And the complete and utter lack of logic in this statement has been pointed out to Joan over again, but she just chooses to ignore it because it doesn't serve her purposes.

Perspective :

California has about 232,000 notaries, a per capita of 1 per 146 people, for a service that most people use extremely infrequently at best.

California has about 50,000 police patrol officers, a per capita of 1 per 677 people. The police force is working 24/7 doing a job that is infintely more difficult and dangerous than notary work, basically maintaining a civilized society.

The United States Postal Service has a total US workforce of about 640,000, a per capita of 1 postal worker per 462 people, for a service that is used 6 days per week, every week by every residence and business in the country.

So, unless anybody out there believes that it is necessary for there to be 4 notaries to every 1 police officer in the state of California, I think it's quite reasonable to assume that our state is extremely saturated with notaries.

Reply by Fay Hudson on 9/4/05 9:51pm
Msg #63732

In agreement with CalifNotary. I live in between two notaries public, one at each end of the block. Also, I have driven to a borrower's home and have seen the Notary Public sign in the window of their next door neighbor. Why I am making the "big bucks" and he/she (the next door neighbor) is not is beyond me. Over saturated, under compensated, and under marketed in California.

Reply by Joan Bergstrom on 9/5/05 12:01am
Msg #63739

I will stand by what I said in earlier posts: we have the fewest notaries per capitia in the United States. New York has 1 per 73 people, Florida has 1 per 57 people and to go down towards the bottom Kansas has 1 per 22 people.

In fact Kansas has 1/2 the total notaries we have in Calif: they have 134,000 notaries for a population of 2.7 million and we have 236,00 notaries for a population of 36 million.

Ohio has more total notaries 330,000 than we do and they have a population of 11 million people. In Florida they have 365,000 notaries with half the population we have in Calif.

Don't all these states have the same issues/ police/ teachers/whatever that Calif. has?

I respect Fay for posting her name and stepping up to the plate; the other person has no credibility because he/she won't post their name or link. Just as coward as far as I'm concerned.

Newbies are always asking how can they get hired? I posted this last week but here are 4 good ways to get hired.
1. Advertise on notaryrotary.com as a premium member.
2. If you don't put a profile on your advertisement you will not be hired!! Kay's is not a good
profile but she has done a good link ad with her internet access where most of put our picture.

3. Put a picture on your ad when this option is available; such as notaryrotary.com

4. Posting my real name has gotten me many many jobs.

Its all about marketing and doing a good job with the client. Our own Claif. Chamber of Commerce says we are 66,000 notaries short in the state of Calif.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 9/5/05 2:44am
Msg #63742

Other numbers that may be more important.

Of the 1 to 146 ratio how many notaries,

Have the commission as an add on to an already existing job (real estate agents, bank employees, employees of mailbox services, Staples mail centers etc)?

Are Loan Siging Agents?

Know what they are doing?

Will be out of business tomorrow due to incompetence?

Reply by Gavin on 9/5/05 3:07am
Msg #63743

Just because we have less per capitia notaries than other states, does not mean we do not have an over saturation in alot of our area in CA, especially in the metropolitain areas, like southern CA especially. Other notaries from other states have mentioned that they also have an over saturation of notaries in their states, so to compare us to them is a bit ridiculous.

As for the Calif Chamber of Commerce, of course they are going to say that there is a shortage of notaries. They want more members, just as you promote it, to promote the classes you teach.

Reply by Nd_WA on 9/5/05 6:50am
Msg #63748

Not my ball game here, but...

What is the notary per signing capita, ratio, needs or what ever you want to call it in a given population?

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/5/05 8:24am
Msg #63751

Re: Not my ball...ANDY - best question yet.

Andy, Common sense as usual. That's the best question yet.

When I want to know what the odds are for me, I go to the county clerk's office and find out how many loans in the refi category were done. (Those are the ones I can actually do with no problem...HELOCs are a pita for me because I have to get a place to do them. )

By looking through my county's records, I am able to have a good handle on how many are done, how many I am getting, and who my competition is. I did not come to this game as a result of solicitation or advertisements so I am not commenting on that part of this discussion.

Regarding going to the courthouse, I know that it would be impossible to do such a count in many counties, but mine and Andy's idea of comparing

NSA : Signing

is on target IMHO. There is probably a mortgage loan broker association which publishes these types of numbers in your state. There is one in Texas, I think, that tallies the apps taken and I believe gives the number of refis, HELOCs and purchase financing.

Now, a question back to any who would be interested to answer:

What's a good indicator of saturation in your opinion?

Would it be more NSAs than signings per month?

Would NSA:Signing = 1:1 be saturated? 1:10? 1:20?

These numbers are probably within the reach of a good internet researcher...it would be interesting to know.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 9/5/05 11:53am
Msg #63769

Re: Not my ball...ANDY - best question yet.

I agree, best question.

Just a few comments. Joan absolutely profits from training new notaries and is open about it. I have to take, with a huge grain of salt, her comments about the "need" for more notaries in California. If that's true, then why don't SS's leave a message for me when I miss their call? If there weren't a whole pack of other NSA's in my area...guess they wouldn't just go on to the next one...

I don't believe there is a lack of NSA's, at all and oversaturation is a hurdle in my county.

With that being said, I do think there is alot to be said about taking your business seriously and marketing yourself, building a reputation, and being the best at what you do. If you do that (as in any profession) you won't have a shortage of work.

Reply by Kelly M Robertson on 9/5/05 8:58am
Msg #63754

I Don't Have any Problems Getting Work

I can speak for myself and I have to tell you and anyone who KNOWS ME will confirm that I am busy and turn down work all the time. And, I no longer work for signing companies. Is it luck? Nope - it's hard work marketing and doing a good job along with a positive and forward attitude. My most recent change in my business plan is that I had to shrink my area to accomodate the high gas prices. That works better than B*ing about it and I doubt that I'll suffer financially from this change. My clients pay the same high gas prices so why complain.

My overnite doc fee of $150 is met every day of the week and so is my eDoc fee of $45 (edocs are 95% of my work). I live in Southern California and have students ask me all the time about "saturation" and "competition". I have never and do not give any credit or meaning to those words and that has manifested a good income for me. It's not pumping sunshine up anyone's behind: It's MY truth. And, I have students will attest to their success by thinking the same way and working very hard. Perhaps they will come forward and the invitation may lead to both positive and negative responses, but that's okay with me. As we all know, this business is not for everyone: I know loan signers who complain about not being busy or successful - why? Because they complain about cat box odors, having to take off their shoes at customer's homes, readers, misbehaved children, dogs noses up their wazoos, cat hair, strong perfume or hairspray, and signing companies that require a zillion fax backs, etc. They answer their own question of "why am I not busy?". S I M P L E

Joan Bergstrom is a successful loan signer / business owner, a very smart lady and a very generous and caring person. I guess I just don't understand why someone (Calinotary) would actually start a thread bashing Joan or any individual for that matter. It strikes me as odd for a person to go out of their way just to be mean - I wonder if he/she has actually met Joan and knows her? It's hard to tell since they remain anonymous (I mean they don't post their true name). It appears they are not happy or perhaps are frustrated by another's success. I have read your thoughts Calinotary on the NNA ads and notaryclasses' ads, but wonder when the heck will you give it up and move on? Sounds healthy to me.

The instructors are contracted - not employees of notary classes. We don't have anything to do/no input regarding how the boss spends his money and even if his ads are silly, they are definately getting the attention of listeners because we are still adding classes and experiencing full classes up and down the west coast. I imagine the NNA is too although I just attended one of their classes two weeks ago to check them out and it only confirmed that we teach a much better, more intimate course plus our pass rate is awsome. We hear from students all the time who go on to be very very successful loan signers too, ignoring naysayers and giving their goals 100% effort that eventually pays off. It sounds like Calinotary has it out for you Joanie and I suppose after this, maybe me now too. Oh well!

If anyone on this board would like to contact me directly for a positive exchange of information on how my business model works for me, please feel free! Mine is not an original and I must give complete credit to my mentor, Miss Pat Wilsher of (now) Las Vegas, NV. An awsome woman with great talent and goals and I might add, another very successful loan signer. I am sure that Joan feels the same and will allow her to offer up personally. There is also a great mentor / networking program here in Southern California and I hear that the next meeting will be in San Diego sometime in October/November. Contact Joe Ewing for info on that event (he's all over the web).

Reply by Nicole_NCali on 9/5/05 9:29am
Msg #63762

I think that this issue is ad nauseum..

I am in the bay area with a hot housing market, new sales and purchases. The amount of re-finances have cooled to about 25% less than last year, this is coming from Loan officers and mortgage bankers, when I hear of people talking about become a SA, make $100,000, I laugh hysterically.

What people like Joan don't explain is that Real Estate Agents, Loan Originators, Mortgage brokers have caught on to the loan signing biz. This gives them a bigger cut of the pie, in what is going to become a shrinking pie, let's look at the recent tragedy in LA, MS and elsewhere, this could possibly met a new hot market in construction loans, but the rest of the country is going to cool off, interest rates will have to increase to keep the rate of inflation low, and this interest rate increase will affect an already affected housing market.

New constructions will have to be diverted to these affected areas, but you can't construct until you have some capital freed up to do this. I am beginning to get into forecasting, but most of the SA know what I am talking about.

Keep your advertising real, keep the outcome realistic, advise that like any business, the first 2 years will see you in the red, most business fail due to undercapitalization **no start up or minimal start up money** have a business plan, stick with it- This information comes directly from the SBA-a reputable organization.

Reply by CaliNotary on 9/5/05 2:05pm
Msg #63778

Re: I Don't Have any Problems Getting Work

"I have read your thoughts Calinotary on the NNA ads and notaryclasses' ads, but wonder when the heck will you give it up and move on?"

Well, I guess if Joan ever stops robotically spewing out these statistics as an indicator of a shortage of notaries in Calfifornia, I wouldn't feel the need to put things in their proper perspective and show that her facts PROVE there is already an overabundance of notaries in California, as well as elsewhere. Just once I would like her to show that she that she is capable of actual critical and independent thought instead of just spewing the party line. As for having it in for you, lets just say I've heard from more than one person about what a backstabbing bitch you are in real life. But ultimately I could care less about you or Joan, I just want to make sure that there is more of a balanced view on this board.

Until then, I'll make sure that people like her and you, who have a vested interest in and profit from the creation of new notaries, aren't able to put your marketing based "opinions" about the subject on the board unchallenged. Your bias is huge, even in this post you've managed to crow about how much better your classes are than the NNA and what a successful passing rate you have. And most of the posts I've seen from you manage to incorporate the same kind of marketing spin.

I've never said that it's impossible for a brand new person to be successful in this business. Sure it's possible. It's also possible for a hayseed from Kentucky to move out to Hollywood and become an actor eventually making $10 million per movie. But is it likely? Hell no. For every success in either of these industries, there are thousands of others who aren't earning enough money to put them above the poverty line.

Reply by Kelly M Robertson on 9/5/05 10:15pm
Msg #63819

Your Obscenities Were Not Necessary CaliNotary

And your statement that others chime in on your opinion of me is sophmoric. I suppose I'm not surprised -- it's clear you have a lack of self-respect. Gee I wonder if I could have logged in with a phony made-up name (like yours) and then posted making a critism of you by calling you a name using profanity and then also said that others that know you feel the same way? Oh no - that's right, I could not do that because you don't use your real name and I could just not stoop to that, I mean your level. Whew! Boy I feel better now and without swearing.

One final statement that I omitted from my last post: Our students are very, very bright - I can't believe all the great minds that I am fortunate to meet at all my seminars -- truly first-class individuals. With that in mind, there is no way they are "falling" for any of the pooh you fling. They know what they are getting into from the get-go and they've have been warned of the likes of you, those that prowl the boards anonymously belittling others to make themselves feel good .

The good news is that our students are not the only ones that are "on" to you. No one really respects anyone who posts with a name that cannot be linked to a profile anyhow. Maybe you could start your own board since you are a legend in your own mind?

Oh and one more thing -- your "balanced view" clearly violates Harry's rules of the board.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 9/5/05 10:55pm
Msg #63824

Re: Your Obscenities Were Not Necessary CaliNotary

If *bitch* is now considered an obscenity, we're watching too much "Nick at Night".

I've watched and read Cali's posts for a long time.

First: he has no lack of self-respect as evidenced by his strong positions to anyone or anybody that he either agrees or disagrees with. Truly, he doesn't give a rats ass who it is. He's true to his beliefs - period - whether your agree or disagree with them.

Second: to the phony made up name: it is consistent and recognizable, which is all that's asked of posters to determine the source. I could care less what his real name is, unless I'm accidently introduced to him at a party and I don't know it.

Third: the "pooh" is also consistent with his position on this board in this matter. Not much else could be asked of anyone posting here, and much MORE than most (reference anonymous posts ad infinitum).

Fourth: ***warned of the likes of you*** They are well advised in that case (kudos to notary classes.com) - and should be glad that they get a good dose of reality along with the marketing 'feel good' spin about making $100,000 a year. ***Prowl the boards***???? Huh? Once in a blue moon I look at GMN and never EVER have seen Cali post. The truth hurts too much there.

Last: ***No one really respects anyone who posts with a name that cannot be linked to a profile*** You are quite and absolutely wrong on that statement. I respect Cali's thoughts a great deal, regardless of whether or not I agree with him. You aren't speaking for me, Kelly, and I haven't exactly just fallen off the turnip truck, either in this business or in life.

I have some interest in this discussion only because I hope new people see that all is not a bed of roses in the business of being a NSA...however, when you suggest that someone who is active on this board, consistent with his/her opinions and contribute (yes CONTRIBUTE) to discussion and points of view with intelligent comments - is not worthy of respect is complete crap and I have to say something.

(I hope crap isn't an obscenity).

Reply by CaliNotary on 9/6/05 7:57pm
Msg #63910

Re: Your Obscenities Were Not Necessary CaliNotary

Thanks Title Gal. I figure that if Kelly is complaining about my screenname and the fact that I used the word "bitch", and not addressing the actual facts I wrote in my post, I must be right on target. In the entirety of this thread, I have yet to see Kelly or Joan address the point that everyone keeps making over and over again - why exactly does California need 230,000 notaries?

But of course neither of them has the balls to actually try to answer THAT one.

Reply by Kelly M Robertson on 9/7/05 7:37am
Msg #63963

I have NEVER said that California needed 230,000 notaries

And, I've never quoted numbers or statistics about signing agents or notaries public. Get your made-up-in-your-head to make-yourself-feel-important facts straight.

Reply by KathleenR_CA on 9/5/05 3:20pm
Msg #63784

Re: I Don't Have any Problems Getting Work

Kelly-what is your email address?
Thanks,
Kathleen Rose

Reply by Kathleen American Signing Service on 9/7/05 1:11pm
Msg #64020

Re: I Don't Have any Problems Getting Work

For Kelly: I would love to know how your business model works for you! I can be reached at
[e-mail address] Hope to hear from you soon.
Thanks a million,
Kathleen Rose

Reply by CaliNotary on 9/5/05 2:11pm
Msg #63780

Re: Not my ball game here, but...

I would love to see the per capita ratio of people in the state who use any sort of notary service in a given year. If the notary vs population ratio is 1/146 and the actual usage ratio is something like 1/500 or 1/1000, isn't that a pretty clear indicator of incredible saturation?

Reply by patricia on 9/5/05 9:43am
Msg #63763

I became a notary in 1998 and saw the exact same advertisement at that time. "California needs 66,000 more notaries"

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 9/5/05 12:19pm
Msg #63770

One more comment, then I will be done with the subject.


I got into loan signing when I retired from my job recently. I had a notary commission some time before that, but basically it was inactive. I will bet that many of those 1 in 146's are inactive.

Yes, I took a loan signing class to get familiar with the documents Yes, I paid for a ride along to see what to do, and yes before I began I read all the posts on this board about Southern California being over saturated. And yes, many notary signing agents in my area are complaining that we are over saturated and there is not enough work. Yes I even commented on this apparent over saturation.

I signed up with several signing companies, signed up on this and 123 and a couple of others. I built my own website using the free space that came with my Yahoo account. It's not that good, but it does have my picture and some information. Yes, I took some of Joan's advice, but aside from attending her loan signing class, I don't know her and don't associate with her. I just took some of her advice. I decided that I was going to become as familiar as possible with all the laws, documents, situations as possible and double and triple check my work to be as error free as possible and oh yes, treat the client with the same care and courtesy that I demanded my employees gave to customers while I was working full time.

The outcome? I had a goal of maybe earning maybe $1000 to 1200 per month to supplement my retirement income and then travel. fish, have fun with friends until I was old enough to collect social security.
Right now, I have more business than I can handle to the point of passing off signings to others. I have title companies calling me to fix others' errors. If you take my earnings for the past 2 months and factor it out for 12 months, I am pushing the 100k rate. But heck, I am retired and don't want to work that hard, so next week I am leaving on a little trip.

You can make the money, but you have to work. Is isn't going to come to you. And then you have to deliver excellent customer service to all parties concerned in the transactin. I hear so much on this and other boards, "this stupid signer did this, or this stupid signer did that?" You people do realize, don't you, that most loan companies send a survey sheet to the borrowors asking how they were treated? And there is usually a section on there for the signing agent to be rated. These survey sheets are sometimes mailed out or sometimes a phone call or sometimes with the documents, but they happen all the time. So if you honestly review how you treat everyone involved, how would you rate yourself? It really is all about customer service, no matter what the business.

Reply by HisHughness on 9/5/05 12:27pm
Msg #63771

Joan Bergstrom may be a successful notary public; she certainly is successful at marketing herself as a producer of successful notaries public, however dubious that distinction might be. Methinks, however, that she has missed the profession that obviously would hold the most promise for her: Inflating hot air balloons.

The relevant question for the huge majority of people on this board is the number of signing agents per capita, not the number of notaries public. That figure is at the same time both more pertinent and more elusive. I suspect that the ratio of notaries public to signing agents in California is far smaller than in Kansas, which Ms. Bergstrom cites as proof that the Golden State is not saturated. And it is in that ratio that most of us take a hit in the pocketbook or purse.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 9/5/05 7:56pm
Msg #63813

***Methinks, however, that she has missed the profession that obviously would hold the most promise for her: Inflating hot air balloons.***

I'm sorry - but without exageration, I am holding my sides laughing out loud.

You just have this art of delivery, HH...

Reply by John_NorCal on 9/5/05 10:47pm
Msg #63822

As for saturation I think if you look at the money that is offered for signings you can tell a lot. In 1993 when I first did signings, I got $65.00 per signing in my local area. That was with overnight docs, no e-docs. Who even knew what e-docs were! Remember, gas, and expenses were a hell of a lot cheaper then. Now when you have people tripping over themselves for $50.00 signings, I believe you can make a case for over saturation.
That all being said, marketing and above all customer service, is the key to success. You need to be better than the other guy or gal. An if enough people refuse the low ball signings, the market will, as they say, make a correction. There will come a time when the new people with pie in the sky expectations will go on to their next ideal occupation to make their untold fortune.

Reply by TCMN on 9/6/05 12:21am
Msg #63835

Very well said John....and HUGH...you crack me up! n/m

Reply by NorCalDar on 9/6/05 3:00am
Msg #63838

Ratio of notaries to general population is irrelevant.

Wow! Take a weekend off to take my 9 year old fishing and missed the real action.

On the issue of saturation and ratio of notaries to the general population, CaliNotary justifiably continues to beat this dead horse each time it rears its ugly head so I couldn’t give a rat’s hind-most attribute (just trying to keep it clean). The statistic I would rather see Joan site is the ratio of NSAs to signing NEEDS. But I would imagine that since she doesn’t site that stat it would not be favorable to her cause. What I do care about is gradual shift of low-balling that IS taking place in CA. I used to turn down $50.00 signings and expect that I would get a callback. I track these things and can assure you that someone IS taking these assignments. Granted, I can’t say for sure what the going price is in cases that I don’t get callbacks (could be higher than $50.00 but lower than my acceptable range). Yes, I know that they will not last long in this business by taking that low of a fee but I can’t help but wonder if the continual stream of new notaries (thank you Joan et al.) makes that a mute point. My biggest concern is that if the trend continues, TCs will start employing the same tactics as SS. I realize that some might argue this will never happen because the TCs won’t sacrifice quality but they may enticed into testing the bar. After all, indicators point to the market tightening up and good business would dictate COGS (Costs Of Goods and Services for those of you in the “get rich quick” crowd) evaluation.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 9/6/05 1:46pm
Msg #63873

Re: Ratio of notaries to general population is irrelevant.

FWIW, some TCs have already started "employing the same tactics as SS". The boards have been full of discussion about that (e.g NASCO, FASS, TCC ?) These things are happening on a national scale, since the "refi-mania" of a couple of years ago is waning. I agree that customer service and marketing are critically key components, but I also think there are some geographic differences that come into play. And I agree that statistics re: number of SAs would be much more relevant to any "saturation" discussion. Need for notaries and need for SAs are apples and oranges. I suppose it's possible for there to be both a shortage of notaries AND an oversaturation of SAs!

Reply by Tracy Hill on 9/6/05 5:20pm
Msg #63891

I may not know much about the notary business yet , you see I'm one of those newbies out here. But i do know the if you dont market yourself you will not get any business asi have owned my own business befor. One of the reason i got into this business is one of my business reps got into it and with little work on his part has been doing about 15 signings a month for the last 3 months. So i think Joan is right there is not enough working notaries out there. I'am Also a former student of Joans she does a great job teaching and informing you of waht can happen if you put foth the effort. Thanks Jaon keep up the good work.

Reply by Anonymous on 9/7/05 12:58am
Msg #63945

apparently she did object to your spelling...

Joan is a big girl, she posts here without your help all the time. The issue at hand is that she is about the only one making over $100k due to her churning out the uninformed and the dreamy eyed newbies like you.

Ask Joan how you can truly make $100k and marketing is right on queue, start marketing to dopes about an already oversaturated field and state, that more reps are needed. I kind of admire her, she is selling water to drowning people who come out the gate, " in over their heads."

Reply by Tracy Hill on 9/7/05 10:41am
Msg #63991

Re: apparently she did object to your spelling...

All I ways saying if you wont to work it out there. like i said a guy i know is making money and not even trying that hard. Its like any thing you do in life make a plan and plan your work.