Posted by Brasring_Ca on 9/17/05 2:55pm
Msg #65850

DOT.... can we....

If so many notaries are finding that the DOT are being altered after being notarized by someone adding witnesses after the fact, are we allowed to draw a line through those sections so that this could not be done or no because it is the "Deed of Trust" and gets recorded?

I know on other items we are not to leave blank spaces on notarizations so that things can not be added later.

Just wondered if this could be done on the DOT and make us less likely to get into trouble for something we were not a party to.

Anyone know?

Reply by TitleGalCA on 9/17/05 3:07pm
Msg #65851

I don't know, Brasring. But it's an interesting question.

Maybe in the future notaries could have a stamp made, or new acknowledgements printed that states "no other individuals/signers have appeared before me, other than those stated in this certificate".

Once signed by the notary, it would establish the fact.

Reply by Brasring_Ca on 9/17/05 3:19pm
Msg #65852

I think that is a good idea. We need some kind of protection against the fraud that is being made on many of these documents. I also liked the suggestion that someone else had made a while back about putting the word "only" after the names stated who appeared before me. This insures who we saw and does not allow for anyone to sneek any other names in.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 9/17/05 3:37pm
Msg #65856

IMO the lenders should weighing in on this fraud situation. Ultimately they are the ones that depend and rely on our notary certificates in a DOT.

Reply by RickinVA on 9/17/05 3:47pm
Msg #65857

I'd be interested in what some of the more experienced Notaries think about lining out the rest of DOT. May have to talk to a few Circuit Court clerks also.

Rick

Reply by Brasring_Ca on 9/17/05 3:51pm
Msg #65859

We do this on other documentation to protect against fraudulant additions to notarizations and I feel that we should be able to do the same with the Deed of Trust, I just don't know if it will record if this is done. I will check with NNA Hotline.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 9/17/05 5:39pm
Msg #65863

What notaries think doesn't count, imo. The document belongs to the lender, and they have the say-so in that document.

As notaries (or NSA's) we are not the alpha and the omega of real estate transactions.

Reply by MelissaM_FL on 9/18/05 4:48pm
Msg #65956

I don't think I qualify as a "more experienced Notary", although I have been doing this for over 3 years and have several hundred loan signings under my belt. However, I am now lining through any blank space left after I add the names of the signers to my notary certificates.

I also have spoken to an attorney who specializes in real estate litigation regarding both issues (addition of status of signers to certificates and adding witnesses after the fact) and am waiting for a call back. I did read a reference somewhere to a CT bankruptcy court that invalidated mortgages based on witnesses added after the fact, so I'm extremely curious to see what the attorney's opinion on this will be.

I initially called him because I wanted to discuss whether the additions to my notary certs and/or the addition of non-present witnesses could place me in any liability on the changed mortgages.

Reply by Brasring_Ca on 9/17/05 3:48pm
Msg #65858

I will see if I can get an answer about crossing through the witness areas and if this would cause a problem with the recording of the Deed or not. I will post when I have a definite answer as per our California laws. Yes, everyone involved in the loan process should have some kind of liability for what goes on behind the scenes to legal docs and should therefore conduct business ethically.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 9/17/05 4:26pm
Msg #65861

Great idea except for one little detail. The notary certificate has nothing to do with who the witnesses were. Ensuring that no other names are added to the certificate is one thing, and I have not seen that as an issue. Adding witnesses after the fact is one of the major problems. Lining through the "witness" signature lines may be acceptable, but we won't know until we get a ruling from the clerks. Even then, the lender may have specific rules about cross-outs on their documents.

I've started adding "-only-" after the last name in the certificate. But that didn't stop the TC from adding "husband and wife" below the names. This is the stuff that is in direct violation of state statute and is considered as a 3rd degree felony and may carry a $5,000 fine along with it.

Reply by JO_PA on 9/17/05 4:42pm
Msg #65862

Re: What about N/A?

What about putting N/A? Since PA is a non-witness state, then having N/A on the line possible do more to stop settlement/title companies from trying to fill in the line, since they would probably have to use whiteout to get rid of the letters.
Let us know what you find out.

Reply by Charles_CA on 9/17/05 6:23pm
Msg #65864

Re: What about N/A?

I treat my certificates like a check, In the area where is has the signers names I draw a line immediately after the singers names and then a z like line through ther rest of the space,

For instance I have John Q Borrower and Sally H Borower-------------------------------------------

that way nothing can be added to the name line. This method was endorsed to me by a lender and some fo the live instructors at NNA's clases also no recommend doing the same. As far as witnesses go the notary is considered a witness so possibly if you put your name in one of the witness slots and cross out the other it seems to work for me: I've had no one question it. Whether it is an acceptable form I have no opinion. I have had no problems doing this myself, I am not recommending this to anyone and is only an example of how I handle the paperwork assigned to me. An attorney member of the State Bar is the person who issues opinions regarding legal issues and I am only a notary.

Reply by Les_CO on 9/17/05 6:29pm
Msg #65866

Yet another ambiguous question! WHO ARE WE? My opinion, such as it is. The "NOTARY" has nothing to do with this. The "Signing Agent" ??? ...must "interperet" some vague, and conflicting laws. Meaning we won't know until someone gets sued, and the courts decide?

Reply by BarbaraL_CA on 9/17/05 6:57pm
Msg #65871

Just ask...

Any out of state closing that I have done I always tell the person requesting my services that CA does not require witnesses, so I'm checking to verify if your state requires witnesses. If so, how do you want me to handle this - witness or not witness - and if witness, can the notary be one of them. Never had a problem.