Posted by BrendaTX on 9/13/05 4:42pm
Msg #64989

MIC & WF - Three Tales

Tale One: Lots of Different Price Ranges

Through Five different companies (1 title and 4 SS's) I get these Mortgage Investor / Watermark Financial packages. The lowest price I have accepted has been $50 and the highest was $175.00 (w/ edocs and 45-60 miles ow)...same package, but some SSs are really lowballing and getting less than they have to, I think. It might be volume, but volume what?
At this point, it is volumes of headaches based on my experience with MIC.

I don't know what the TC is getting for a closing fee to hire the ss or sa,, but the standard fee to two of the SSs from one of the TCs is $100 for these packages. These pay the notary $50.

Another gets $125-$150 and they pay the notary $50/25 if possible, but I expect $90 - $145 from them because there is always a drive.

On the other hand, one of the SSs has a very good relationship with a different TC and he gets around $275 from his title company. I charge him what I charge his TC when they call me direct. He pays faster, actually. No matter to me. In fact, he just paid me full fee for a no show and he pays on time, too.

So, that's a little food for thought on this lender. The title company in all of the above except two, I believe, is making a little extra by shaving down the SS. One of them is making enough on volume from the lender that I think they just pay the SS or SA plenty and move on. One Ss said they are struggling because of this low fee thing. (Oh? I had not noticed...low fees are causing a struggle?) That's why they keep taking the MICs - it is to stay in business. MIC does not translate into the big bucks for middle men, in most casees I have observed.


SSs should have never gone down to $100 - volume or no. Some of the low low ones have had to pay me $150 for distance when they are getting $100....then it is a no show, send me back. $150 again. So, they made -$100.
============
Tale Two: Not Doing Them Any More.


I have decided I will not longer do MIC / WF. I always did as they requested and never called bwrs.

Two times they have burned me and sent me into a situation where the bwrs were NOT interested. Both were out of town jobs. I was paid fairly and it was okay.

Two weeks ago I had one for 60 miles away. when I realized who it was, I wrote the SS and told them that this had been happening. They were sympathetic and did not want a job done that would not pay them, then they have to pay me -- I had not negotiated for full fee if they cancelled or a no show for that signing, but I told them that for the future, I would not take these without at least $145 full fee for going to this certain town. That's what I charge for that little trip no matter who it is calling. .

They said we know where you are in this ... so lets find out what's going on. They gave me permission to call bwrs and then said to call lender and see if they matched stories. I called bwrs - "NO NO NO, we said this a month ago. Do not want you here with a loan. NO."

I called lender and they said: Hold on....OH YEAH they are getting a SWEET deal. You betcha - GO GO GO. "

They lied and I will never work for them again.

Here! here! to the SS that understands how horrible that is to be in that position and let me make the calls.

=============

Tale Three: Don't make Borrower's Copies for Signing appointment

Then, there is a second SS and third SS which gave me these in the past like I will describe...I just turned one down from them here in town because I just will not give this lender my assistance any longer. Especially not with the way they do the edocs through this one certain title company...

This is so bizarre. The Title Company puts a note in with edocs or in ss confirmation: Only print one copy. Bwrs will be mailed or emailed their signed copy. Find out their preference.

You tell me...how does that play out for you?

Do you see a problem with this practice?

I would print out a set anyhow and take them for the bwrs.

I have tried just leaving them in my bag and not saying they were with me for a test. Because of MICs hard sell the bwrs are already nervous. They say: Where is my copy?

It does not work to just take ONE original. Is anyone printing out one copy only?

MIC/wf instructions says to print a bwr copy...I wonder if they know that the TC requests no bwr copy? I suspect the TC wants to get paid for their part in the job. TC is the one saying don't.

And, where does that leave us? What bwr in their right mind will sign docs without a copy? That would automatically let the 3 day pass go by.

At first, I thought it was to cut down the edoc fee. But, that's got to be paid at the rate the notary accepts it. They pay $25 so one copy or two copies same price for SS / TC. No skin off of the TCs nose.

It is dumb for a notary to go along with that. You are going along with what I think is a subtle way of avoiding the rescission possibility. No copies - no read.

The NRTC is useless then. Other than to stall the bwrs from exercising the RTC, what other reason is there for not giving a copy? I am open to ideas...I do want to believe otherwise.

And, what if you accidently mess up the DOT? It happens to me on occasion that the bwr signs wrong. I want those things perfect. I need to get the copy and use it.

THE END

Reply by PNW_Notary on 9/13/05 8:46pm
Msg #65032

MANY things to learn from this post. New NSAs pls read!

BrendaTX's post is one of the best posts of this year.

She gives DETAILED examples of a few of the complexities involved in being a professional NSA. BrendaTX's post shows that the NSA must run her business, not just get docs signed.

A few of the points BrendaTX covers by example:
*Watching for patterns. For example: a single lender with a specific product but many different ways their loans are handled by SSs, TCs, and LOs. Another example: watching how many of these loans have serious problems.

*Engaging the NSA brain rather than blithely following instructions.

*Minding the business of being an NSA. What BrendaTX will and will not do for a single assignment. How far is reasonable. What fee is reasonable. When is it reasonable to demand full fee vs a lower trip fee or second appointment fee. Whether or not to call borrower before appointment.

*Keeping an eye out for being placed in the position of not being neutral (not providing borrower's copy and thereby aiding the lender in their strategy to avoid cancellations).

*More, more, more.


I am urging those NSAs who have been doing signings for less than one year to read BrendaTX's post carefully. You are running a business, not just "doing signings." Even a babysitter will select her clients carefully and set her limits and fees. Even a babysitter will make certain she gets paid for each and every job.

Another point: when we oldies strongly urge new NSAs to get 100+ SS signings under their belts before approaching TCs for direct work, we are telling you to not just learn the loan docs but to also LEARN THE BUSINESS.

Reading this board daily will also help new NSAs learn the business by watching for patterns. Fee trends, deadbeat alerts, change in standard business practices, new tricks LOs and SSs will try to pull on you, etc.

GREAT POST, BrendaTX. Thanks!!!

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/13/05 9:44pm
Msg #65038

Re: MANY things to learn from this post. thanks back...

It was pretty long, but you are right, I did post it so others could learn from it.

So, do any of you think there is ANY reason for not printing out the bwrs' copy? Really, I am not looking for the bad, I want to know what good there could be.

It makes the notary's time very likely to be a wasted trip in the ol' State of Texas. People won't do it. They think you ARE a crook if you try something like that. At least not in this part of Texas...nope...won't happen.

Reply by MelissaCT on 9/13/05 11:17pm
Msg #65047

Re: MANY things to learn from this post. thanks back...

Had a couple requests to NOT call bwr from TC. Guess what, I call anyway. CT is a witness state & 7 out of 10, the LO, etc doesn't tell bwr they need to provide witness. So what, I'd get there & no witness, if I didn't call bwr? Don't think so. No witness, no loan signing...

TC goes so far as to not give bwr phone number -- that's what 411 is for!! Internet directions arent' always correct & I like to verify location/directions with bwr before I go there.

As for bwr copies, I alwasy print a set for bwr. IF they get another set in mail/overnight, hey it's a bonus. Can't count on LO/TC, etc to do the job right.

If you want it done right, do it yourself! Besides, if a lawsuit came out as a result & everyone involved in the transaction is named as a party, you wnat to make sure you did everything by the book of the law not what's convenient for the lender. It's your a** in the sling if you skirt the law...

Just my 2 cents on the subject.

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/14/05 2:04am
Msg #65060

Re: MANY things to learn from this post. thanks back...

I don't deliberately go against the hiring entity's request. I just do not work for them if I have to break their rules. No calls please, I do not call. The SS told me to call.


About copies: The question was not should I make copies? It was to inquire if anyone could see a good purpose for NOT giving bwrs a set. I cannot. It makes no sense. .

***If you want it done right, do it yourself! Besides, if a lawsuit came out as a result & everyone involved in the transaction is named as a party, you wnat to make sure you did everything by the book of the law not what's convenient for the lender. It's your a** in the sling if you skirt the law...***


If there is a problem, there is. Why focus on lawsuits for notaries. How often does it happen?

We need not to think that we will get sued every minute of the day.

Usually, those who promote fear through threats of "the tribulation" want to sell church memberships...those who use lawsuits to instill fear want to sell us insurance...or they are affiliates of an organziation who sells insurance. "Yes - be afraid ! And do buy $100,000 right away."

I only hear about notary crimes and lawsuits when there is a truly bad notary being bad to illegals on the border...or a truly bad notary notarizes deeds. I am not truly bad and I do not anticipate being stupid with my seal/stamp..

It is not a crime for a notary or a courier to follow the hiring authorities instructions unless it is against a criminal law, or a notary law. TC and Lender are supposed to provide a fully signed set post signing appointment. By that time, my job is done.

Reply by NorCalDar on 9/14/05 3:27am
Msg #65065

Re: MANY things to learn from this post. thanks back...

BTW BrendaTX, Great post.

To answer your question, I don't see any good reason to not give the borrowers copies at the time of signing. Consider:

1) The TIL and NRTC usually have verbiage to the effect of "by signing below you acknowledge receiving two copies of the NRTC/TIL"...etc. It does not say "by signing below you agree to patiently await for the TC to send you completed copies of the RTC/TIL and any other documents the TC deems worthy enough to copy and send." Interestingly enough, though, I don’t see anywhere in the Truth in Lending Act where it says that copies of the NRTC have to be provided at the time of signing. It says that the creditor shall deliver two copies to every person who has ownership interest; it doesn’t say when. I suppose one could infer that the intent of the TIL Act is for the rescission period to begin when the borrower receives their copies but I’ll leave that one up to the lawyers.

2) Providing copies at the time of signing eliminates the NEED for the borrower to carefully read each and every document during the signing. I always put their copies in a manila envelope and put them off to the side. Keeps Mr. borrower focused on the task at hand. I put the borrower’s copies of the NRTC on top of their copies so that when I get to the original NRTC I can pull out the borrower’s copies and have them fill their copies out as well as the originals.

3) I like having my brief case full when I get to a signing. Makes me look important!

I agree with your response to MelissaCT. I wouldn't be too worried about liability if I didn't have copies with me (unless I sign something to the effect of “I acknowledge proving copies of the documents to the borrower I/A/W the Truth In Lending Act”) . I am there to procure signatures on the documents and notarize documents that require it. Providing copies of the documents is the responsibility of the Lender/ TC. If I contract with them to provide signing services and they request that I not deliver copies, I would have to either honor their directive or pass on the assignment. Either way, I don’t see where I would be violating the law by not being the one to deliver the copies to the borrower.

Reply by Nd_WA on 9/14/05 5:31am
Msg #65068

Re: MANY things to learn from this post. thanks back...

The different in opinions I see here has to do with one's knowledge about the business or how it is percieved. I often see the phrase "work for them" rather than "work with them" used in describing the relationship between SAs and their clients. If one was to call this a business then a business work/deal with other businesses.

BrendaTX, remember a saying not long ago about something to the extend of "not bending over backward for anyone except your business". Best answer huh? We're in business long enough to know no call borrower means we accepted a signing with higher risk to the bottom line and that our fee must be guaranteed in some ways. No borrower copy is nonsense (to me) as we can look at the ratio of those that required, clear as daylight. You must have felt that pinched nerve in the back prior to posting this thread

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/14/05 7:09am
Msg #65080

Re: MANY -Nd...yes, it started to be like work...

You hit the nail on the head. Time before last it became an unpleasant experience to work *for* these folks. It felt like "work"

And, yes, Nd, I realize that I have been refering to hiring entities as "the boss" or as if I am working for them when in fact I DO work for myself. You are right. Good reminder. Right now I am a little bit in the "work for" mode because my internet was out quite a bit the last two weeks and I am behind on my info and getting it out for my inspections.

And, you are correct also that one should never bend over backwards for any business but our own. This is the mentality I keep near to me. Mostly, I don't think it is healthy to act as if bending over backwards for another person or company is good exercise. Stop doing it, ya know?

I am much better at stopping back bends than I was just two or three years ago.

If you don't get a pinched nerve, you just get mad and feel like a martyr...so good, nice, helpful...and no one is ever so nice to me. BOO HOO.

---I got a mad feeling and then I said - No More. ---

On one of those trips I could not find the house. Called 'MIC up like I am supposed to. They did not have anyone there who could concentrate on directing me, the bwr was not at home / not answering the phone and I was getting carsick from riding around and around. The LO who got on the phone with me was also selling deals. He had a map program open and he'd say "okay turn on Ash...but hold on...I have a call."

Turn which way on Ash????

He'd come back on -- I kid you not - several minutes later and expect me to still be ready to turn onto Ash.

That really angered me that night. And, it is the first time I recall being angry in my business in over a year. So...when my blood pressure rose, I decided it was my last wasted trip for MIC's having me be the tool to socially engineer a signing.

Social Engineering-- I have no proof that this is their intent. But they did try to get me to go when they lied to me and said the bwrs were waiting.

Social engineering is when you cause someone to do something because it's the nice and polite thing to do and the person you intend to control feels obligated.

I feel they used this technique --that's the whole thing about the "no call" IMHO. The no call was not about rude notaries sliding around the time which is what MIC and WF professed to be the case. I think they just wanted one last attempt at the loan they knew was doomed.

-If they can send the nice lady to the house when the bwrs do not want the docs, well...let's use her. Send her. Hell with the way she's treated when she gets there and is unwelcome.

-That gets one more slim shot at the loan signing.

-If the nice lady really is driven by getting the FEE at all costs, and she's driven a good ways, she'll push the loan a little for them. (No...not this one.)

-If she pushes the loan or says something stupid like "I drove all this way! and I won't be paid!, they might just feel sorry for her and sign, intend to use the RTC but miss the deadline.
(and, I always tell the bwrs in a situation like that that I get paid no matter what - don't worry.)

Reply by Teasa Mahar on 9/14/05 9:13am
Msg #65113

Brenda who is MIC and is WF, Wells Fargo?

Reply by Anonymous on 9/14/05 9:19am
Msg #65115

MIC=Mortgage Investors Corp and WF=Watermark Financial

Reply by Mike_IA on 9/14/05 10:54am
Msg #65148

Re: Borrower's copy and Iowa law

Iowa Code section 535.16 requires that a lender or other secured party provide to a debtor, at the time a document relating to a debt is signed, a copy of the document signed by the debtor.

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/16/05 9:58am
Msg #65662

Mike-IA re Borrower's copy -- CA Law --TX Law

**Iowa Code section 535.16 requires that a lender or other secured party provide to a debtor, at the time a document relating to a debt is signed, a copy of the document signed by the debtor.**


Mike, et al, Others have also found what they perceive to be a legal problem with the practice of not giving a copy to the borrower and they have emailed me. I received the following note:

=========
Hi Brenda, I did a search for both of our states and found that in both cases copies of documents involving real estate transactions are to be delived to the borrower "at the time of execution."
Tex Code is 39.004 (Business & Commerce Code)
Cal Code is 10240 (Business and Professions Code)
Gig 'em Aggies!
==========
http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/BC/content/htm/bc.004.00.000039.00.htm
The Texas code is at the above link.

The citings are interesting reading.

I do not say they apply to the situation discussed in this thread because I am not a lawyer, of course.

Only the reader and his/her lawyer can make that decision.