Posted by Sylvia_FL on 9/14/05 5:23pm
Msg #65223

More on dishonest settlement/title companies

OK - I decided to go back through all my signings for this year. I have got as far as April, and so far there are 4 companies who are adding witnesses to the mortgages when they get the docs back! There are a couple that have altered my notary certificates! This is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE!!!
I am not going to let these companies get away with it. Two other notaries in Florida have told me they decided to check their signings too, and are finding the same thing. Witnesses being added when the docs get back to the title company, and notary certificates being altered, and in one case a mortgage was altered!!

We all need to take a look at the mortgages at the recorders office (if you have online access to them) and check to see if you are experiencing the same thing.

LSI, Fidelity, USAA and NFRES are all "squeaky clean" no witnesses added or notary certificates altered, so you probably don't need to check those.

I am not going to let this go. These companies should not be allowed to get away with it.

I am waiting until I get the money owing to me from that one company before I take any action. And I am not going to be accepting work from any of the companies that are altering my certificates or adding witnesses to the mortgage. It will cut down on my income, but thats just the breaks. I don't want to be associated with those companies!
If they wanted witnesses on the mortgage, even though it is not a requirement in Florida, they only had to say so, and it would have been taken care of legally.

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/14/05 5:43pm
Msg #65225

Re: More on dishonest - Great Plan Sylvia

At some point we have to put our dainty little feet down.

As badly as I want to work all I can,I figure if a lender (my hate object for this week) like MIC will lie to me and send me to a strange home knowing I will not be welcome, they will do what EVER it takes to get a set of docs signed.

It is the same with this Sylvia. If these companies are doctoring up the docs after you notarize, they will be doing much, much more. and they will be feeling less and less guilt from it as time goes on.

Reply by LawrenceOK on 9/14/05 5:55pm
Msg #65228

Re: I'll be out of the office tomorrow

I have found 3 that I can check on line. Tomorrow I will be going to court houses that I cant check on line. I like Sylvia am going after the ones altering my notary certificates.

Reply by Becca_FL on 9/14/05 6:17pm
Msg #65232

Sylvia, I have a lot to add to this discussion, but can't right now. I am soooo mad with one TC in PA that I could, well, you know. I will fill you in and update the boards as soon as I get a chance.

Reply by Melissa Mills on 9/14/05 6:20pm
Msg #65234

In checking mine today, I've found not 1 or 2, but TWELVE notary certificates that have been altered, not to mention witnesses added who I know were not at signings with me! I, like Sylvia, will make arrangements for a witness to be present at the signing if it is required by the Lender or TC, up to and including paying a witness to be there if necessary.

I'm very angry and two particular companies seem to be the worst offenders. Note that I have only checked mortgages that I completed in my home county, and I cover a FOUR county area. I plan to complete the online checks tomorrow for two other counties and then I will have to make a trip to the fourth county to check on those, although I don't go out there a lot, I have done a significant number of mortgages there.

Anyone up for a road trip to Okeechobee?

Reply by Teasa Mahar on 9/14/05 6:34pm
Msg #65240

You guys, aside from adding witness signatures WHAT info are they altering on the notary certs? Amazing.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/14/05 7:30pm
Msg #65249

One company added an AKA to the certificate. Some have added the signers capacity - as in "husband and wife" or "single man" etc. We cannot add that to the certificate!

Reply by TitleGalCA on 9/14/05 10:53pm
Msg #65284

Get 'em Sylvia. This is truly the bottom of the barrel. If I saw my certificates altered when viewing the recorded document, I'd be furious. I hope the governing authority in FL takes this seriously, because it is.

Reply by Lee_AR on 9/14/05 11:20pm
Msg #65289

Is this why they now want us to have $100K E & O???

Hmmmmmm.... Think about it.

Reply by christiSocal on 9/15/05 1:02am
Msg #65298

I wouldn't be surprised, Lee, specially since it seems to be

widespread. sounds like we should all check! scary. Although I still think they should be scared, Ya don't mess with Notaries

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/15/05 7:40am
Msg #65320

Re: Is this why they now want us to have $100K E & O???

E&O insurance will cover notarial errors we make, wouldn't cover a company deliberately altering a notary certificate - and the alterations made the certificate non-compliant with Florida notary law.

Reply by LisaV_MN on 9/15/05 8:56am
Msg #65330

Sylvia,

If these companies are nation wide, when you get to the bottom with them - will you post the names? Or communicate that in some fashion (email)?

Reply by PA_Notary_II on 9/15/05 9:15am
Msg #65333

Would it be a good idea to copy the signature page of the DOT, after notarizing for your file to use as proof of fraud?

Reply by Teasa Mahar on 9/15/05 9:24am
Msg #65335

Probably not a bad idea. Sad that we would have to do that.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/15/05 9:26am
Msg #65336

We are not authorized to keep copies of documents we notarize.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 9/15/05 9:27am
Msg #65338

In Florida we cannot maintain copies of notarized documents. So your suggestion, though a good one on the surface, isn't allowed in FL. (Governor's Reference Manual for Notaries, pg. 42.)

Reply by Art_MD on 9/15/05 9:31am
Msg #65339

Re: can you...

line thru witness area or write in "none" ??

Art

Reply by Giselle_CA on 9/15/05 11:22am
Msg #65371

Re: can you...

What you might do is also make a line after the last person's name you are notarizing or could write the word "only." That way, no one could add anything after the names you have written.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/15/05 1:37pm
Msg #65417

Florida statutes on forgery

The 2005 Florida Statutes
This is what the Florida statues say about altering a notary certificate

Title XLVI
CRIMES

Chapter 831
FORGERY AND COUNTERFEITING

View Entire Chapter

831.01 Forgery.--Whoever falsely makes, alters, forges or counterfeits a public record, or a certificate, return or attestation of any clerk or register of a court, public register, notary public, town clerk or any public officer, in relation to a matter wherein such certificate, return or attestation may be received as a legal proof; or a charter, deed, will, testament, bond, or writing obligatory, letter of attorney, policy of insurance, bill of lading, bill of exchange or promissory note, or an order, acquittance, or discharge for money or other property, or an acceptance of a bill of exchange or promissory note for the payment of money, or any receipt for money, goods or other property, or any passage ticket, pass or other evidence of transportation issued by a common carrier, with intent to injure or defraud any person, shall be guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.


And reading the statutes the punishment would be a fine of $5,000

Reply by Tina_MA on 9/15/05 2:57pm
Msg #65442

Syliva, thank you for highlighting this problem. I would have never thought to check to see if any of my certificates had been altered in any way.

I have spent the afternoon checking the signings I've completed the past few months online. This has been very frustrating as different counties, and parts of different counties, use different websites and formats for their online searches.

Some of the counties require a fee to search online. One such site charges $0.50 per minute while searching (I wonder if they show racey pics of the property to justify that fee -- or perhaps there's a sexy voice reading the info to you in a suggestive manner). Obviously, any docs recorded in that county will remain a mystery to me until I am able to travel there and search the old fashioned way.

Of the docs I was able to view, I only found a couple that were altered. It seems someone decided to cross off the information I had added to the acknowledgment certificate. I add that as CYA, to make certain that the certificate stays with the doc it was originally intended for. I double checked to make sure it belonged to that doc and that the borrowers signatures matched my journal and everything was in order.

I will now start to check docs on a regular basis, as I am worried about fraud after the fact. With the boldness of the title co's Sylvia spoke of, it seems that there is nothing some of these companies won't do to get their docs recorded.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 9/15/05 6:15pm
Msg #65490

Re: More on dishonest - Hold the phone.

Need to make a statement here, clarify a few things so that my industry isn't portrayed as the devil.

***With the boldness of the title co's Sylvia spoke of, it seems that there is nothing some of these companies won't do to get their docs recorded***

And, there's nothing some companies won't do to protect a notary that can't do their job right in filling out a simple acknowledgement.

First, I think Sylvia's post had something to do with adding witness' to her certificates. That's heinous and needs to be corrected with the full Wrath Of The Authorities.

However, before every NSA goes off checking public records and see's that somebody has put a pen to a certificate TO MAKE IT RECORDABLE with the simplest of standards that the Recorder has (and saved said NSA's hinny in the light of their reputation with a SS or LO), think again before y'all go off in crazy mode on this.

Picture this with me for a moment...then decide what's worth pursuing in your quest.

Scene: me at my desk, title officer with a major title insurance company, escrow rushes over with last minute docs (not my favorite thing). I abstract the docs first to make sure I can issue a policy of title insurance and do a quick scan of the acknowledgements. Whoopsie - here's another notary who can do a certificate right. On 9/15/05, before me, ***notary inserts signers name***, so and so appear before me (shortened for purposes of this post). Notary then goes on to sign his/her name correctly and stamped it with a blur of a stamp.

I have a problem. It's 4:30pm and I have a cutoff time of 5pm for the recorders for 8am recordings the next day. Escrow is frazzled, cries (yes, cries) how this has been a terrible transaction, and OMG, now the notary screwed up. "THIS HAS TO RECORD" cries the frantic EO. I say "no go, it'll get rejected by the recorder". "OMG, the notary is in San Diego, I can't get a new acknowledgement and this is the last day I can hold funds before returning them to LO" I say, "okay lets try and find the notary" (using my handy dandy notary locater service) and guess what, she's on vacation, so we can't get her okay over the phone. The loan is for 2.5 million.

Follow me here...behind the scenes is this very same notary who just landed an account with this LO and if able to be contacted would probably say...(but that's just a guess ???) "Oh, thanks so much, YES, line out the borrowers name and put my name where it should be. I'm so sorry, I've been working on this account for six months".

But that's not the case - and I have a blurry stamp too. Now I also have to attach an affidavit (my own) so that someone can see the notary's information once the document is filmed.

I look at escrow, she looks at me....a ton of money's on the line....picture ticked off buyer, REALLY ticked off LO, insanely ticked off agents...you get the picture. This is "reality real estate" folks...and if you don't believe it, you're living in a dream world and in the wrong business.

So...moral of story from the "trenches" don't be so ready to flip out over the title company who just saved YOUR rear-end from losing an account over your error that would have held up a transaction for say...minimum of 5 days...maximum - the sky's the limit.

Make REAL sure it's one of those "heinous" things Sylvia described, and is truly a "wrong" otherwise you could be biting the hand that just protected you and your account.

__________________________________

Disclaimer - personally, this has never happened to me.

Reply by Melissa Mills on 9/15/05 8:49pm
Msg #65559

Re: More on dishonest - Hold the phone.

I can see the scenario you are describing quite clearly, but the items being changed and added are not "to make it recordable". Someone is adding things to the notary certificates that are not supposed to be in a notary certificate such as "Husband and Wife" or "an Unmarried Person". These 'blurbs' are not required to make a document recordable. As a matter of fact, we specifically do not notarize capacity in Florida.

The other issue that many of us are finding is that witnesses are being added to documents, witnesses that we notaries know were not present at the time of the signing. I've never met any of these people and I know that I've never had a witness show up with a name stamp in hand to put their name underneath the signature line.

If I were leaving out something like not filling in a date or the venue information, then I could see someone placing those bits of info in the certificate, although that, technically, is illegal in Florida as well. However, adding extraneous information to a certificate is not necessary to make the document recordable.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/15/05 9:39pm
Msg #65584

Re: More on dishonest - Hold the phone.

Melissa
I had one where the "witness" name was printed under their signature as well.

I have e-mailed a friend of mine in the Florida Senate who is on the Regulated Industries committee to get his thoughts on this.

Reply by MelissaM_FL on 9/15/05 9:55pm
Msg #65591

Re: More on dishonest - Hold the phone.

I'll be interested to hear your friend's take on this. FWIW, I called the head of my county's UPL committee today for an opinion on whether I have any personal liability and/or need to do damage control about the added information to my certs. His gut reaction was "It depends", which is pretty much the standard answer for any legal question! He's going to do some research on it and get back to me the first part of next week.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 9/15/05 9:40pm
Msg #65586

Re: More on dishonest - Hold the phone.

Just to clarify a bit, we DO include capacity in our notary certificates. Capacity as a "representative" of a position or office, such as president of a company, attorney-in-fact, etc. However, we do not certify STATUS of an individual, such as marital status (husband and wife, single man). Ref: Pages 30, 44 and 80 of the Florida Governor's Reference Manual for Notaries.

Reply by MelissaM_FL on 9/15/05 9:58pm
Msg #65593

Re: More on dishonest - Hold the phone.

I understand capacity as it pertains to POA, corporations, etc, but was using the word capacity for status. There are, however, specific formats for notarizations in which the person hold the other capacities, therefore I did not clarify the term. My apologies for being unclear.