Posted by Mobile Docs on 9/20/05 6:42pm
Msg #66278

NOTARY BEING PAID BEFORE THE ACTUAL CLOSING

I HAD A NOTARY REQUEST HER NOTARY FEE PAID UPFRONT PRIOR TO THE EXECUTION. WE HAVE NEVER HAD THIS HAPPEN BEFORE.

Reply by MelissaM_FL on 9/20/05 6:46pm
Msg #66280

I've heard of notaries doing this. I actually see nothing wrong with it. After all, if the SS wants us to extend credit to them by doing the signing first and waiting for payment, why shouldn't the shoe be on the other foot?

Reply by B__CA on 9/21/05 11:19am
Msg #66390

Very good answer. n/m

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 9/20/05 6:52pm
Msg #66282

Well, it has to happen sooner or later with the increasing number of SA's not paying promptly or not paying at all. I have my own list of compainies I won't work for unless there is a deposit ahead of time in my paypal account. Depending on which "Mobile Docs" you are, you could be on that list.

Reply by Mobile Docs on 9/20/05 7:03pm
Msg #66284

NO, WE CAN REST ASSURE THAT WE ARE "NOT" ON THAT LIST..

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 9/20/05 9:16pm
Msg #66312

Well, I can't tell if you are on that list or not because

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 9/20/05 9:18pm
Msg #66313

Re: Well, I can't tell if you are on that list or not

because you don't really identify yourself. A link to your profile would be helpful to all of us reading this post.

Reply by CaliNotary on 9/21/05 1:22am
Msg #66347

"I have my own list of compainies I won't work for unless there is a deposit ahead of time in my paypal account"

I see a lot of people say this and I'm curious, has ANYONE ever had a signing service do this for them? I see it as a fun way of saying "hell no" to companies like SOX, but as an actual business practice it seems pretty pointless because I don't think it's ever been done in reality.

Reply by LawrenceOK on 9/21/05 9:03am
Msg #66364

This could only work with overnight docs and it would have to be a cashier's check. If I cant trust them to pay, I'm sure not going to trust them with direct deposit account numbers and I don't trust paypal either.

Reply by Charles_CA on 9/20/05 7:04pm
Msg #66285

No need to shout! Things they are a-changing!

Perhaps you didn't pay the notary in a timely fashion before. Now that business is starting to level off I think a lot of things are going to change. Stand by as the notaries regain ground, after all the compared to an SS the notary is THE essential ingredient to a closing the SS is just a convenience. If SSs don't start catering to notaries needs, (like paying on time) notaries can always go directly to the source.

Reply by Mobile Docs on 9/20/05 7:10pm
Msg #66287

Re: No need to shout! Things they are a-changing!

THIS IS FINE... WE WERE JUST SAYING FOR THE LAST 3 YEARS THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED... TO DEFEND THE NOTARIES I CAN COMPLETELY SEE THEIR POINT... I THINK ALL NOTARIES SHOULD WORK HARDER TO ACHIEVE THIS.. AND FOR THE SS THEY ALL SHOULD DEMAND PAYMENT FROM THE BORROWER AT THE TIME OF CLOSING AS DO APPRAISERS DO...

Reply by CarolynCO on 9/20/05 7:40pm
Msg #66293

Re: No need to shout! -- MOBILE DOCS

The subject *No need to shout! ..." was directed to you -- please take your Caps Lock key off so your messages are not in all caps -- i.e., shouting.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 9/20/05 8:17pm
Msg #66297

Re: No need to shout! Things they are a-changing!

>>> AND FOR THE SS THEY ALL SHOULD DEMAND PAYMENT FROM THE BORROWER AT THE TIME OF CLOSING AS DO APPRAISERS <<<

Until such time as the contract is between the SS/notary signing agent and the borrower, there is no way that payment can be demanded from the borrower. The contract is between the NSA and the SS and the title company or lender. The borrower does not engage in the hiring of the signing agent as he does with the appraiser (in a convoluted way).

Reply by Charles_CA on 9/20/05 8:29pm
Msg #66300

How the SSs do business is their concern...

I am sure that the SSs could demand payment if they had something besides accommodation to offer but they don't. The SSs are there only as a convenience, its the notary that is necessary. The notary has the comission now all they need to do is realize that they are the necessary link in the chain and start acting that way. As long as there was a surplus of notaries and new ones enerting the field every day the SSs could dictate their terms. As the economy slows down and the excess notaries find the gold mine du jour the notaries will again be in control of their businesses and the SSs unless they cater to the notaries will not have any business so to speak of. After all it is virtually impossible to violate the laws of supply and demand. The notaries need to take control of this business and dictate the terms not some clearinghouse.

Reply by H Martinez on 9/20/05 9:01pm
Msg #66308

Re: No need to shout! Things they are a-changing!

Please explain to me what use one signing agent is to a lender. They will have a limited coverage area and limited availability. Signing companies maintain a signing agent database and will never reject a signing. They make the lender's job easier. Lenders do not usually have the time to call notary after notary to schedule a signing as well as deal with all of the issues that arise (printing issues and such). I am looking at this as a signing agent as well as an employee of a signing company. I know for every signer that bitches about our fees, there is another who agrees there is a lot of competition out there and will jump at it. Let's not over-value ourselves. This is my first and last comment on this board as I have too many signings to pay any attention to all the whiners.

Reply by Charles_CA on 9/20/05 9:12pm
Msg #66310

Sounds a little self serving but I am glad you weighed in

on the subject. I always said that the SSs were a convenience to others. But if notaries stopped doing business with SSs who have lousy buswiness practices the other businesses would have no use for SSs who have no notaries to call. Simple as that. The competition will diminish as the pie gets smaller and those with poor business practices go under: both notaries and SSs. The notaries who jump at your fees are the ones who will disappear from the scene. So, who ya gonna call!!!!

Reply by CaliNotary on 9/21/05 1:16am
Msg #66346

Oh brother

"This is my first and last comment on this board as I have too many signings to pay any attention to all the whiners."

Well it sounds like your time management skills could use some work. I'll bet this whiner has as many, if not more signings than you do, yet I still have time to have a life away from doing signings.

Of course, I don't believe for a second that you have "too many signings", that's usually just a lame thing people thrown into their messages to convey an air of superiority. I have a feeling the board won't suffer in your absence.

Reply by Anonymous on 9/21/05 2:43am
Msg #66352

Re: Oh brother

There ya go Calinotary this person does not go by anonymous....speaks his or her mind...and you still find something rude to say... I knew you could do it


I'm listening

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/21/05 3:23am
Msg #66354

Re: Oh Sister...Anonymous...


"This is my first and last comment on this board as I have too many signings to pay any attention to all the whiners." said the busy poster who thinks none here should over estimate their own value (and he's right!).

Anonymous,

Don't you think Mr. Martinez would be disappointed if someone did not take offense to his post? Talk about low-hanging fruit...it was just setting there begging for a response! Cali's just being a good sport...a team player...a late night welcoming committee for the extra-special people who are too busy with too many signings to pay any attention to all the whiners.

I thought it was rather sweet of him.

Reply by Anonymous on 9/21/05 1:49pm
Msg #66452

Re: Oh Sister...Anonymous...

if you say so

Reply by christiSocal on 9/21/05 4:27pm
Msg #66488

Anonymous...you have no sense of humor... you poor thing n/m

Reply by SoCal Signing Co. on 9/20/05 9:21pm
Msg #66314

Mobile docs, I see that once again some have gone off topic. (ALL CAPS) I understand your frustration to this request from a sa. I am sure she or he had reason to be so untrusting, maybe she or he has had some SS not pay. ( present Co excluded )

I know this is tough to be going through your job as a SS and run across people who as I have been told won't walk out their front door for under $165.00. Much less ask for it prior to walking out their front door. But if it works for this person... Fantastic!!!

We ALL have businesses to run, the SS's and the SA's and we are either successful or we are not. What ever works for each of us, works for each of us.

I actually do understand why the appraisers get paid from the borrower, after all the Appraisal belongs to the borrower, its theirs to take and use for their own use. (in many areas it is usable for loans for 7 months)

Reply by Mobile Docs on 9/20/05 9:49pm
Msg #66319

on a lighter note, it isn't any easier to collect from a direct lender or a title co. we are at it allday long, so for those who do deal with these people direct you'll know this to be true, but those ss's out there who have done wrong by there notaries have made it hard for us and the ones on the up an up. A notary should never tell a co. that she will not send the docs back till she receives payment ( not cool ) puts anybody in a bad position with the company who hires them.

Reply by B__CA on 9/21/05 11:25am
Msg #66392

Just curious, how many times has that happened to your company, a notary refusing to send back the docs until they are paid? I agree it is a bad act on the notary part to ever threaten to do this.

Reply by Charles_CA on 9/20/05 10:00pm
Msg #66325

You've kept this at a professional level but I disagree..

I think that a healthy discourse is important and you,SoCal Signing Co. have certianly kept it even handed. However I disagree. The appraiser is also a service much as the notary signing agent. the appraiser competes for the business and is an independant contractor who now needs to be licensed to do certain types of loans. The appraiser need s to be licensed now because the banks and the appraisers misbehaved and caused a major problem in 1986. Most probably don't remember but the scandals involved many high level players and politicans and the abuses were of a proportion that shok the savings and loan industry.

However there is little difference in the appraiser and the notary signing agent. Both are services and both are paid by the borrower. Also if the loan doesn't fund and the lender promised no fees the appraiser and the notary signing agent get paid anyway. At least the appraiser does. There is no clearing house between the appraiser and the lender, why should there be one between the nsa and the lender. If you check the settlement statements you will see that thereare fees for both the appraiser and the notary already included in the estimasted costs. They are the same. I work for some SSs and have a cordial, respectful, and mutually profitable relationship. I won't work for SSs who are abusive when it comes to pay or the other terms they try to impose. The unfortunatel thing is that while the apraiser has an extensive training period, a long history of relationships, and a strong network the nsa business is relatively new, has little in the wauy of requirments and no network and there fore the nsa gets abused while the appraiser does not. I am a commercial real estate agent, a loan orginator, an appraiser and an nsa and there is litttle difference between the services rendered or the relationships to the buyer/borrower. As the concept of nsa's matures and there becomes a stable, experienced group of both notaries and SSs the business will shake itself out and it will be better for everyone. But some people are going to get hurt in the meantime both notaries and SSs. And one may actually disappear. The notary could disappear by technology and the SSs could disappear because they become superfluous. Both of whom have made investments in time and effort as well as infrastructure and because of attitude and business pactice will go under. This is the way of business. Those who provide a better product at a cheaper price, or those who provide a product not readily available will have the market. So how do we make it better?

Reply by AnnaCA on 9/20/05 10:19pm
Msg #66328

Re: You've kept this at a professional level but I disagree..

I've been reading this thread with interest, and have been keeping up with these message boards for a little while now. As a new notary who will be jumping into this business very soon it concerns me that so many notaries have to cross their fingers that the SS they're working for will pay them. I'm not at all surprised that notaries have resorted to requesting prepayment.

It's wishful thinking, but perhaps the SS and SA relationship will reverse, with the SA operating at the level of an appraiser and commanding the full sum paid upon completion of the signing directly by the borrower, and the SA paying the SS a small percentage as an advertising or referral fee for continued business. That way, both SS and SA survive, but the payment structure more accurately reflects the importance and necessity of the notary.

-AnnaCA

Reply by SoCal Signing Co. on 9/20/05 11:31pm
Msg #66337

Re: You've kept this at a professional level but I disagree..

Charles, thank you for this reply. This kind of discourse works well, and is most appreciated.

I understand what your saying about the two services being requested. But I go on this, the appraisal is a tangible item. It is a report that is accepted by many companies, over a period of time. Many times, BUT NOT ALL the borrower pays for this service prior to the closing of the loan. The services we as SS or SA do is just that, not much different than Escrow, or Processors. We are just one more step in the loan process. It can be argued both ways, and both would be correct by their own merits.

But on that note, when someone changes the rules of engagement I will be happy to accept payment in full for services going to be rendered, or paid at time of rendered services .

I do appreciate your comment about working for some SSs being cordial, respectful, and mutually profitable. At times here I get the feeling that the SS is a bad word, something to be avoided.

When I have the time to come on here and listen to people vent about not getting paid what they are worth. I take note, I try to listen on both levels as a signing agent and as a signing service. As a SA, I make companies feel that I am looking after their money and their interests, not mine. Its just the attitude you portray that let you win as a SA.

Thank you for these comments

Reply by Barry Silver on 9/21/05 8:09am
Msg #66360

Re: You've kept this at a professional level but I disagree..

I too have been reading with interest, and I appreciate Charles' business insights. Many will do better to listen to what it is he has to say here.

On my personal refinance, I had to pay for the appraisal when the appraiser showed up to make the appraisal. Of course we know this is usually done at the beginning of the loan process as this document is a necessary evil for the lender to determine what the maximum loan amount will be. I was told by the lender I would be credited the fee at the closing table. I'm sure this is because the lender does not want to pay a fee and see the loan denied or the borrower decline the loan. Despite the fact I wrote the check, I was denied a copy of the appraisal. I was told it was the property of the lender because it is the lender that ordered the appriasal. I finally received it two weeks later from the lender. I ended up going to another lender who required their own appraisal. This lender ordered the appraisal with no promise I would not be charged for it at the end. He said he would try to get it waived. He did.

The NSA shows up at the end of the deal ordered by a lender, TC, or SS. At the SA level, I want to be paid up fron because it is difficult, as we all know, to collect from some of theservices/companies later. As a SS owner, it is not feasable. Anything can happen. In FL, a hurricane blows our way, and the signing must be canceled. When it is time to reschedule, will the same SA who received payment be available? What if the SA is running late for whatever the reason may be, and can not make a particular signing until two hours after the scheduled time (I've had borrowers cause me to be late), but the borrower can not commit to the signing two hours late because the children are asleep or the borrower has to up at 4:00 in the am to go to work?

As a SS and former SA, I understand the concerns NSA's have, and I try to address those concerns. I never lowball the SA; I try to pay the requested fee; on many occassions, I was able to pay more than the requested fee (too many SA's price themselves between $65.00-$85.00 per signing); I pay twice per month. Any NSA who has contracted with me knows this. Most of the time, the SA is paid by me weeks before I receive payment from the client. I do this because the agreement is between my SS and the NSA. I pay a print/trip fee if a loan is canceled (usually $50.00); and I pay a full fee if a loan rescinds. Why? The contract was between my SS and the NSA. Service was rendered; payment for said service must be made. Simply put, I treat the NSA as I expected to be treated when I was providing service as a SA.

As you said, both sides have valid points.

Reply by Eugene Tripp on 9/20/05 10:31pm
Msg #66331

Unfortunately, it is often true that there are bad apples among the signing agents as well as the signing services.

However, it is unfair to blame the majority for the practices of a few.

I believe we should all work together as a community to promote our common interests. I also believe that signing services provide access to business that otherwise may not be available to many signing agents.

Ethical signing agents and signing services benefit each other in many other ways. Together they provide a function that has the potential for mutual respect, admiration and business success.

Reply by Kim_Cali on 9/20/05 11:37pm
Msg #66339

Requesting payment prior to a signing is standard protocol anytime SOX or other SS with horrid pay reps call me.....its kinda fun I must admit....they step all over themselves, get all puffed up and claom they pay within 30 days. Sometimes you just gotta have fun

Reply by SoCal Signing Co. on 9/21/05 12:01am
Msg #66341

Hey Kim,
call me tomorrow, I received some things in today.. Stacy came through

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 9/21/05 10:51am
Msg #66382

Asking for payment is my fun way of saying no although I have had a deliquent ss pay up what they owed before I took another job from them.

As far as Paypal, I have used it for other business interests for years without a problem. I just don't leave the money in their account, I have it connected to it's own special checking account and the bank won't sent money to them through the system without approval directly from me. Worked so far.

As far as having problems collecting from TC's when they call you direct? I find that difficult to believe. When I work directly for a TC or lender directly, I have always gotten my check within a week or so from closing. Also, I have always received payment when the loan was cancelled withing the 3 days. For some reason, not so SS. Maybe I am lucky, but based on the payment history from the TC's that I work for, I must assume that the payment problem is with the SS. And if the loan doesn't close for some reason, I bet the SS uses that execuse to keep the fee themselves. Don't know that for sure, just based on my observation..