Posted by CaSigner on 9/21/05 12:29pm
Msg #66405

RTC - blank transaction line

What do you guys do when the "transaction date" is blank at the top of the RTC.

Reply by Bonnie_FL on 9/21/05 12:33pm
Msg #66408

You have to put in the dates if they are blank before the borrower can sign it so put in the transaction date (which is the date of your signing) and if the cancellation date is wrong, put a straight line through it, correct it, have the borrower initial it and have him sign the doc. If that date too is blank, fill in the correct cancellation date.

Reply by CaSigner on 9/21/05 12:37pm
Msg #66411

How can we assume though that the transaction date is the date of the signing. I have seen docs where the transaction date is preprinted on the line and is a few days before the signing.

Reply by CaSigner on 9/21/05 12:37pm
Msg #66412

How can we assume though that the transaction date is the date of the signing. I have seen docs where the transaction date is preprinted on the line and is a few days before the signing.

Reply by Bonnie_FL on 9/21/05 12:51pm
Msg #66424

I don't mean to mislead you, but I've never done a RTC with the transaction date being other than the signing date. If the date is not the date I am sitting with the borrowers siging the package, with permission, I will change the date on the RTC. A lot of my packages come with basic instructions as to how to complete a blank RTC and all of them have said to put in the date of signing as the date of the transaction. Even blank forms you can print out on the Internet will sometimes have in parentheses the words 'date of transaction' with a refinance, heloc, etc. I don't understand how the transaction date can be a few days before the actual signing (transaction) took place. The date on the RTC normally matches the date the Mortgage is signed. Correct me if I am wrong.

Reply by Bonnie_FL on 9/21/05 1:01pm
Msg #66430

I just looked it up in my NNA Certification course book, pge 257 "There are three important dates referred to in the Notice of Right to Cancel" a. Document preparation date: The date the document was drafted, b. Transaction date: The date the document was signed, c. End of rescission period: The termination date of the borrowers right to cancel the loan." It goes on how to calculate the rescission date...."a. From the signing date, the Agent should count 3 business days after the signing date. The recission period ends at midnight on the third business day following the signing." Therefore, based on the above, transaction date = signing date.

Reply by CaSigner on 9/21/05 1:04pm
Msg #66432

I see what your saying but I did a loan last week in which the transaction date was preprinted two days before. I did nothing to that date but of course did the rest to prepare the document. I am just asking what does everyone do when the transaction date is left blank. Do we automatically fill in the signing date and have the borrowers initial? I called the NNA and they said that you should never assume what to put in the transaction line so call the TC first. They were not available last night so am I to assume it is the signing date and proceed from there? What happens if the documents are returned with the line blank but the rest filled out as usual?

Reply by Art_MD on 9/21/05 1:16pm
Msg #66437

Re: RTC - blank transaction line - casigner

If the transaction date is not filled in, the loan will fund as normal.
The start of the RTC calendar is the later of the 3 items.
When they sign for their copies of the RTC, that starts the clock.

Art

Reply by CaSigner on 9/21/05 1:20pm
Msg #66438

Re: RTC - blank transaction line - casigner

Even if the line is blank, can't they look at the bottom date noted by the borrower of when the RTC was received and go by that date?

Reply by Cherilyn_CO on 9/21/05 1:38pm
Msg #66449

I'm astounded by this...

Do you mean to tell me that you do not know how to properly fill out a RTC, yet you're a signing agent?

I'm hoping we're talking about apples and oranges here. The transaction date is the date you sign the papers. If it is blank, you need to fill it in. If it is a different date from the date you are signing, you need to correct it by crossing through it and writing the correct one. The borrower's need to initial it. Period. This is one of the most important documents in a loan package.

I hope you're talking about the date at the very top of the document. That's the date the docs were drawn.

Reply by Iris_WA on 9/21/05 1:41pm
Msg #66450

Re: RTC - blank transaction line - casigner

To my knowledge, the transaction line must bear the date of the signing. If there is no date, it is the notary's responsibility to fill it in. Most, if not all(?), RTCs I've seen have accompanying wording to the effect: "The date of the transaction ___________________; or _______________________." (There is usually no blank line drawn, just a space.)

Some RTCs come with instructions which will tell you to put in the date of the signing and where to put it. The "or ______________" would cover it. As someone has already said (Art?), it's the later of the two dates which starts the rescission period running.

If the transaction date is preprinted, in most cases that is an indication the signing was originally scheduled to go forward on a different date and the signing just never happened. I have never yet asked permission of the SS to cross that out and change it to the signing date, and never had a problem. On the other hand, it COULD be problematic if the date is totally blank. (Someone already said they didn't have a problem with a blank space, so it's likely to pass.)

Just remember that if you DO cross out that date and substitute another, all Borrowers must initial the change(s) on all copies. Otherwise, if it was blank, their initials are needed only if the instructions direct you to get initials.

Reply by CaSigner on 9/21/05 1:54pm
Msg #66453

Re: RTC - blank transaction line - casigner

My question was what if the transaction date line was returned left blank. The TC called me back and they said it was fine to return blank (in this case only) as long as the rest of the document was filled out correctly as it was. Thanks all for your imput.

Reply by Kiso on 9/21/05 3:55pm
Msg #66480

Piece of advice, casigner...

Even though THIS title company tells you it's "okay" to leave the transaction date blank (which is something I have never heard of), I would fill it in anyways, no matter what company it's for. Basically, if there is a transaction date ALREADY PRINTED and if it's the date you are signing, then leave it alone and proceed to the next step. If there is NO transaction date, fill in the date you are signing. If there is an incorrect transaction date, cross it out and change it, but have borrowers initial it. DO NOT backdate. I think the confusion after the "or" and then blank space is this:

1.) The date of the transaction, which is 09/21/2005
OR
2.) The date you received your Truth in Lending disclosures;
OR
3.) The date you received this notice of right to cancel.

Basically, those "OR"s are pertaining to line 2 and line 3. Doesn't mean "The date of the transaction, which is 09/21/2005 OR (any other date)" Ignore those ORs. Just make sure you have both dates right: transaction date and rtc date. And that the borrower signs in the right spot. Hope that helps

Reply by Iris_WA on 9/21/05 5:06pm
Msg #66494

Actual RTC instructions

If Borrowers are signing on a given date, then the date they receive #2 and #3 IS the date of the rescission. (Perhaps it should be further spelled out to add the words "The date you received AND SIGNED your ... [TIL or notice of RTC]..." but it is implied. Otherwise, it wouldn't be such a big deal as to filling in the correct date on the 3-day RTC and there would not be such emphasis on ensuring the two dates are entered properly.

At any rate, for those who want to see actual instructions, I have come across a set which accompanied a particular loan I recently notarized. Though they are not all EXACTLY alike, they are all equal in ESSENCE.

If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to e-mail you a copy in .pdf format. Just click on the link and email me.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 9/21/05 5:19pm
Msg #66496

Re: Actual RTC instructions

"The date you received AND SIGNED your ... [TIL or notice of RTC]..."

There is no requirement that the Notice be signed. Only that the notice, which contains certain items, be provided to the borrower(s)/owner(s).

For a complete and unbiased look at the regulation, point your browser to http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20010800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2002/janqtr/12cfr226.15.htm
and read it yourself. The implementation of the CFR is up to each lender. Some want signatures, some only initials, and some don't ask for a "receipt".

Reply by Iris_WA on 9/21/05 5:32pm
Msg #66500

Re: Actual RTC instructions

I may have erred in extending my own impression to what words might be added. However, the actual instruction sheet I am looking from one source says "Transaction date is the date on which the Note and Mortgage or Deed of Trust are signed."

Since I have never been involved in a single signing (of almost 1,200 now) where the Note and Deed of Trust were signed on a date different from that of the TIL and/or RTC, I erroneously took a bit of license.

This is not legal advice -- just the voice of my compiled experiences.

Reply by Iris_WA on 9/21/05 5:45pm
Msg #66503

Another of my P.S.s -- to PAW

Haven't read the entire CFR, and you are correct it does not mention the word "sign" that I can see on quick perusal. Nonetheless, the word "delivery" with regard to material becomes key here.

Again, I am not a lawyer, but the word "delivery" constitutes signing -- else any lender could just "deliver" the papers dealing with finance charges, etc., via the prescribed methods in the CFR (i.e., mail, telegram or fax) and then enforce the loan .... sans signature? I think not.

That is why lenders are so insistent on getting proper signatures and dates entered onto these documents.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 9/21/05 6:03pm
Msg #66505

Re: Another of my P.S.s -- to PAW

>>> Again, I am not a lawyer, but the word "delivery" constitutes signing -- else any lender could just "deliver" the papers dealing with finance charges, etc., via the prescribed methods in the CFR (i.e., mail, telegram or fax) and then enforce the loan .... sans signature? I think not. <<<

Delivery means just that ... the document is delivered, presented to, provided to. Does not mean signed for. Mail is delivered to you. Does it require your signature? No, not in most cases. However, lenders, to ensure the delivery is completed, often require the borrowers to acknowledge receipt, thus sign for it. As I said before, not all lenders require signatures.

Reply by Iris_WA on 9/21/05 6:07pm
Msg #66509

Re: Another of my P.S.s -- to PAW

This is interesting to note. I'm "filing" it away in the back of my mind for future reference should it be needed.

Thanks for the added information. I know I can always count on you for the objective facts.