Posted by Anonymous on 9/9/05 10:36pm
Msg #64489

When the hair on the back of your neck stands up.....

you know something is just not adding up. I had a signing tonight, I printed docs and went to the borrowers house. We sit down and I asked for her ID, she starts laughing and says I need ID? I explained why I needed ID so I could notarize etc. She tells me she doesn't have any photo ID at all! No DL, no passport, nothing. We sit there for about 5 minutes as she is trying to think of a way to get this closed tonight (sorry with out ID I am outta there.) Then she tells me she wants to keep the docs because she is an attorney(!!!) and has several paralegals at her firm that are Notary Publics that can notarize the docs. I tell her I need the okay of the TC and they have gone home for the evening. (I knew that was never gonna happen but I had to tell her something.) She also told me her ID was taken from her and she kept saying she will get a State issued ID on Monday not a DL. Ummm... Okay so she is an Attorney who has apparently had her DL taken away but she had a brand new Mustang Convertible in the driveway. I don't really care but this whole thing sounded very strange. Especially since she is an Attorney, not in RE but still, you would think she'd know she needed ID. (Claimed she did not need ID last year when she closed on the house.)

I don't know but I think someone was trying to pull a fast one, just a gut feeling and those annoying little hairs on the back of my neck.

PS: Sorry for the Anon post but I can't seem to figure out how to get my user name now that we need to sign in.

Reply by DonR_NYC on 9/10/05 1:26am
Msg #64505

Over the years I have found more dumb attorneys than I can to count. It doesn’t surprise me at all that she didn’t know she needed ID.

Reply by Les_CO on 9/10/05 3:22am
Msg #64510

Different States have different laws. You need to post what State you're in.

Reply by Renee Kovacs on 9/10/05 5:40am
Msg #64513

To change from "anon" , go to top right corner of screen and select "My Profile", then in your profile there is a drop-down to choose from for posting identities.

Sounds like things just came around to bite her in the behind - though I'm assuming all kinds of things about this borrower, like why she doesn't have a D/L, and the Mustang convertible, and the co-workers who would have 'helped' her out ... I'll just keep it all to my own little imagination =)

Reply by Nancy4_FLA on 9/10/05 7:47am
Msg #64519

Thank you Renee for the help on fixing the problem with my user name. I couldn't use the one I used before but this is close.

My imagination was running wild with this one too, just really bad feeling about this....

Reply by OnTheGoInFla on 9/10/05 8:57am
Msg #64529

I agree and I would not have done it. What I started doing was I got the notary journal from this site and require a thumbprint as well. By the way, In Florida you can do a signing with two credible witnesses who have picture ID. I note the witness ID's in my journal. I know a journal is not manditory in Florida but it should be. I have had to use credible witnesses twice. once cause the ID was lost and another time cause the name did not match exactly. The DL had the First Name and last name but the middle name on the license was the maiden name. On the docs it was the real middle name.

Reply by Anonymous on 9/10/05 9:30am
Msg #64535

I bet she was not the borrower she was probably there as a favor to the real borrower. First if you are a "lawyer" why are you driving without a licence? Sounds fishy to me

Reply by PAW_Fl on 9/10/05 1:25pm
Msg #64563

A couple of comments, in regards to Florida ...

>>> ... and require a thumbprint as well. <<<

According to the Florida Governor's Manual for Notaries (page 67), a notary cannot require a thumbprint.
----- ----- -----
Q - May I require the fingerprints of a person for whom I notarize?
A - No. Florida law does not require, nor authorize, notaries to take fingerprints from persons whose signatures they notarize. Many notary journals or records books allow space for a thumbprint, but this feature is optional. If there is no objection from the signer, you may record a thumbprint in your journal. However, you should not refuse to provide notary services based solely on the person’s refusal to provide a fingerprint in your record book.
----- ----- -----

>>> I have had to use credible witnesses twice. <<<

Again, from the Florida Governor's Reference Manual for Notaries (page 33) -
----- ----- -----
Occasionally, a notary is asked to notarize the signature of a person who does not have, and cannot obtain, acceptable identification. This most often occurs when the person is an elderly person, a minor child, or a person with a disability. Florida law provides two additional methods of identification for these situations:
... ... ... ...
Keep in mind that these provisions are for the purpose of identifying certain people who do not have other identification ...
----- ----- -----
James W. Martin, Attorney at Law in St. Petersburg, FL, has stated, "... a notary may notarize the signature of a person who is unknown to the notary, who does not have the acceptable documentary evidence of identification, and who does not bring a witness who is personally known to the notary ..."

In August 1998, the Florida Governor's Office - Notary Education, published the following:
"A credible witness affidavit can be used when the signer has no form of identification. This form of identification is used only rarely and not as a matter of convenience, usually when the signer is an elderly person, a minor, or a person with a disability. "

Therefore, from what I've been told, if the signer has or can obtain satisfactory ID as prescribed in the statutes, then the use of credible witnesses is not acceptable.

Reply by OnTheGoInFla on 9/10/05 11:22pm
Msg #64624

You are correct in stating I cannot require a thumbprint. I should have said I request it. I have never had a person decline. If they did I would so note in my journal. I also have the borrowers sign the journal so I have a copy of the signature.
As far as using credible witness, both times I confirmed the situation with the state prior to doing so. Since documents are time sensitive and acceptable identification was not obtainable within a reasonable time to complete the documents this was acceptible. Again I did confirm with the State.

Reply by CaliNotary on 9/10/05 11:53pm
Msg #64628

"In August 1998, the Florida Governor's Office - Notary Education, published the following:
"A credible witness affidavit can be used when the signer has no form of identification. This form of identification is used only rarely and not as a matter of convenience, usually when the signer is an elderly person, a minor, or a person with a disability. "

Therefore, from what I've been told, if the signer has or can obtain satisfactory ID as prescribed in the statutes, then the use of credible witnesses is not acceptable."

This is the same as the way that I've decided to intepret the credible witness law in California. The wording says something like "if not easily obtained". A replacement driver's license or CA ID is very easy to obtain, just fill out a form at the DMV, pay your $10 bucks and wait a few weeks. Therefore, in my mind, it doesn't meet the criteria of being able to use a credible witness. I just aborted a signing a few weeks ago for this very reason.

While I'm sure most loan reps dont' care, they just want these things pushed through, I can't imagine the higher ups in these lending institutions really want to issue loans for several hundred thousand dollars to somebody who hasn't even been identified with a valid photo ID. The opportunity for fraud by using credible witnesses is simply too vast, so I'm going to interpret the California law in the strictest way possible to protect both myself and the lenders.

Reply by Lee_AR on 9/10/05 9:35am
Msg #64538

Trust the hair on the back of your neck... and get outta there. You did right IMO. Our primary job is to IDENTIFY the signers. When you can't do that and a whole lot of circumstantial things are not adding up (car in drive, attorney, NO ID at all?!?--nothing?!?, I think you were very wise to get out of there & let the bank, title co. sort it out IF THEY CAN.

Reply by Nancy4_FLA on 9/10/05 5:17pm
Msg #64584

Thanks everyone for your input. The Borrowre was all upset because she really needed to get this loan closed as she needed the money. She was concerned about getting to the DMV next week for a State issued ID because her docket was so full. I mentioned the possibility of credible witnesses but I told her I would have to check into it because I did not know how it worked in Florida as I have never needed to do that as of yet. (Thanks Paw for the info.) She dismissed that idea , she said where are we going to find credible witnesses? I don't think she even knew what I was talking about and she is an attorney??? I was trying to help her at first but then it got so weird that I knew something was wrong so I packed up and left. I called the TC from the car and left a message. The TC called back later and she thought it was strange as well. With all of the idenity theft you just can't be too sure. I am not saying that was the case here but just didn't feel right.

Reply by Melda Bates on 9/10/05 7:52pm
Msg #64604

Nancy are you in Southwest FL by chance? My husbands aunt lives in Ft Myers and she sent me an article where people were stealing property and such and using local notaries and getting away with it. There was a big write up in her paper about it. Anywya it sounds like you did the right thing. I wonder if this was some kind of idenity scam...

Reply by Nancy4_FLA on 9/11/05 10:07pm
Msg #64708

Melda, Yes I am in SW Florida and I did read an article in our local papers about the Notary Public that was notarizing forged Deeds. The problem right now in SW Florida is that property values have increased at an amazing rate and every rat is crawling out from under their holes to try and steal whatever Real Estate they can. There is another big story here about a few unethical Realtors getting death records of out of state property owners and sending offers to buy their properties to their heirs. They are offering $2000 for a property valued at over $80 or $90K! The heirs do not have any knowledge of the value of the property (and many people still think Florida land is dirt cheap) These heirs are not usually finding out how badly they were scammed until it was too late. A few sued but the Florida courts unheld the Realtors right to do this, stating that even though it might be unethical it is not illegal. Seller beware is now the motto. Florida Realtor by law are not supposed to be selling properties for under their value for personal gain but that was the gray area of the law. The Realtors were selling the properties to "investors". I would bet that these could have been dummy companies or the Realtors are getting kick backs. Why else would a Realtor be willing to solicit property owners for properties for so much less than market value when their commission is tied to the amount of the sale?