Posted by Viv on 4/4/06 8:36pm
Msg #111045

ID QUESTION

Just had a call for a signing tomorrow night. Called the borrower to confirm appointment time and confirm that ID will be in hand. She then told me that the name on her drivers license is different to her last name now as she has remarried and has not had her drivers license changed. I told her that I could not use it for ID and she needed some other form of ID. She informs me that she has none and says that in the past the Notary's have used her DL along with her marriage certificate. Is it OK to do this? I have not come on this situation before and want to be sure that I do the right thing. The loan officer, of course, said he could vouch that she is who she is, but I told him that wouldn't work. Please can someone just clarify this for me. Thanks.

Reply by Mung/CA on 4/4/06 9:21pm
Msg #111053

Use two credible witnesses. n/m

Reply by CaliNotary on 4/4/06 10:31pm
Msg #111078

This would not qualify as a credible witness situation n/m

Reply by Joan Bergstrom on 4/5/06 2:43am
Msg #111094

Why would this not be a 2 credible witnesses I.D?

Go get 2 credible witnesses (Calif ) who have known her before she got married (her maiden name) and also know her with her married name in 2006.

In Calif. the 2 credible witnesses need to sign your journal and you (notary) put in their I.D information (almost always a Calif. drivers license and it can' be expired ) and ask them: "Do you have a beneficial or financial interest in this document or are you named within this document"?

When they "No" send them out the door and start the loan signing with the borrowers!

Reply by CaliNotary on 4/5/06 11:49am
Msg #111223

Re: Why would this not be a 2 credible witnesses I.D?

Because to use credible witnesses it must be impossible or very difficult for the borrower to obtain a proper form of ID. That this woman hasn't bothered to go to DMV and update her license (and that she's had this issue before tells me that she's had PLENTY of time to do it) does not qualify as impossible or very difficult. It is EXTREMELY easy to get an updated driver's license after marriage.

Credible witnesses are not *just* another form of ID if there's nothing else available. As a notary instructor you should know this.

Reply by PAW on 4/5/06 11:53am
Msg #111224

Re: Why would this not be a 2 credible witnesses I.D?

Joan,

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but even in CA, if a person has a form of ID, although in a different name, two credible witnesses cannot be used.

From the 2006 CA notary Manual:

C. Oaths of Two Credible Witnesses – The identity of the signer can be established by the oaths of two credible witnesses whom the notary public does not personally know (Civil Code section 1185(c)(2)). However, in such a case, the notary public must first establish the identities of the two credible witnesses by the presentation of paper identification documents as set forth above. **Under oath, the credible witnesses must then swear or affirm under penalty of perjury to each of the things sworn to or affirmed by a single credible witness, as set forth above.** (Civil Code sections 1185(c)(2) and 1185(c)(1)(A)-(E)).

NOTE: The credible witnesses must sign the notary public’s journal and the notary public must indicate in his or her journal the type of identifying documents, the identifying numbers of the documents and the dates of issuance or expiration of the documents presented by the witnesses to establish their identities (Government Code section 8206(a)(2)(E)).

** The "as set forth above" states:

B. Oath of a Single Credible Witness – The identity of the signer can be established by the oath of a single credible witness whom the notary public personally knows (Civil Code section 1185(c)(1)). Under oath, the credible witness must swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that each of the following is true (Civil Code section 1185(c)(1)(A)-(E)):

1. The individual appearing before the notary as the signer of the document is the person named in the document;

2. The credible witness personally knows the signer;

3. The credible witness reasonably believes that the circumstances of the signer are such that it would be very difficult or impossible for the signer to obtain another form of identification;

4. The signer does not possess any of the identification documents authorized by law to establish the signer’s identity;

5. The credible witness does not have a financial interest and is not named in the document signed.

This is almost the same wording as it is in Florida. And, as a notary public giving the oath to the witnesses, and you know that the person named in the document has a current license (item #4), wouldn't that be tantamount to fraud?

Reply by CaliNotary on 4/5/06 4:40pm
Msg #111322

You're exactly right Paul

But Joan is among many on this board who incorrectly seem to think that credible witnesses can be used as an equal alternative to any of the other ID requirements, and that the only criteria for using them is that the person being notarized doesn't have a valid form of ID for whatever reason.

And it's especially scary to think that she's teaching this mindset to lord knows how many new notaries. How anyone can read the above CA code and think that you can use a credible witness whenever you want is beyond me, it CLEARLY says the opposite.

Reply by Pamela on 4/4/06 9:27pm
Msg #111055

Viv Re: ID QUESTION

Viv,

Please go to the California's Secretary of State's website and download the 2006 Handbook!
There are several types of identification that she may use!

www.ss.ca.gov/business/notary/notary.htm


Pam

Reply by Viv on 4/4/06 9:30pm
Msg #111057

Re: Viv Re: ID QUESTION

Thanks guys. I am reading through the handbook to double check as well. When I asked
her for other forms of ID she said she had nothing. Will work it out and apprecicate your help.

Reply by Pamela on 4/4/06 9:41pm
Msg #111061

Viv

You're Welcome!

Good Luck!

Pam

Reply by TitleGalCA on 4/4/06 9:56pm
Msg #111066

Hi Viv.

It is not OK to use a marriage certificate. Further, it is not OK to use credible witness as she has current ID...(for details on that statement read the handbook).

Don't ever, ever take the LO's word (at anything...but that's another subject).

Check the handbook for other acceptable forms of ID and see if she has any.

If all of the above fails, you have two choices: Fudge it (as LO suggested, and not kosher with the State) or do what the State commissioned you to do.

If you choose the later, advise her to go get new ID at the DMV. If (and that is a BIG IF for the notary shark attack to come) and IF her physical description, address, and details match her story, with the exception of the last name dilemma, and she shows the attempt at new ID with the DMV..... frankly? I'd do it.

See, you are the notary, and it's YOU that has to be satisfied - within the CA guidelines. A mature notary knows what is okay/not okay for ID. That is why YOU are the authority in the procedure, and the state relies on your judgment.

All the above is intended for mature audiences only. If not mature, ask the handbook/SOS for permission.

Reply by CaliNotary on 4/4/06 10:28pm
Msg #111076

Why are you second guessing yourself?

It sounds like you already know the correct answer so why don't you trust yourself to do the right thing without getting other opinions?

California law is pretty explicit about what constitutes valid ID. If it ain't listed, it ain't valid ID. You could (and already have) get some conflicting opinions about the use of credible witnesses (and this situation wouldn't qualify for the use of credible witnesses, no matter what anyone tells you), but beyond that it is crystal clear what you can and can't use. And you know that a marriage certificate isn't listed in there anywhere.

The whole point of getting documents notarized is to make sure that the person is who they say they are, so it always amazes me when people don't at the very least know their ID requirements backwards and forwards. It's not just another rule we have to follow to be a notary, it's the WHOLE POINT of being a notary.