Posted by SLB SIGNING SERVICES, INC. - Sherry on 4/4/06 10:57am
Msg #110864

Just so frustrated!!!

Why on earth do TC's think that when a borrower utilizes their RTC, we should adjust our fees and in turn lower our payment to the closer? This is just obsurd to me....If the closer did nothing wrong and I did nothing wrong than why shouldnt we get paid????? Because they arent? What a bunch of bologna!

Reply by cyndi_ca on 4/4/06 11:03am
Msg #110866

Try telling that to some of the other SS's I don't understand why if some don't get paid and they have done their jobs. It's a vicious cycle I tell ya. I feel your pain. One SS in particular told me if the loan recinds I wouldn't get paid. Needless to say I will not work for them.

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 4/4/06 11:22am
Msg #110869

Sherry, what is prompting your post. Are you having trouble gaining new clients due to this issue? Or are you finding that they are trying to pull this with you after the fact?

Now this is unrelated to you but once I accepted an assignment from an sswhen I looked them up thier reviews were conflicting. The thing that got me was the confirmation said something like "you will be paid xx for the successfull closing". Now to me this was ambiguous at the very least. My job has nothing to do with the success of the loan, it has to do with my success in an error free signing completed. I also feel that if you are there more than a half an hour that full fee is expected.

Reply by SLB SIGNING SERVICES, INC. - Sherry on 4/4/06 11:26am
Msg #110873

Just venting I guess..This is a client who we have worked with for a while but this happens all too frequently lately. I do not think it is affecting me getting new clients whereas we do send out a Rates and Policies manual for all new clients explaining our stance on circumstances like this.

I am in total agreement with you on the full fee thing as well...If the closers is with a borrower in a time frame where a successful closing could have been performed and the borrower decides not to sign, than yes they deserve FULL FEE..In cases like this, I usually waive my companies fee but bill the closers fee.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 4/4/06 11:43am
Msg #110887

I think the number of loans that are being cancelled during the RTC period being on the rise are the result of LO's and brokers not doing their job in explaining the loan to the BO or just not being honest when it comes to the terms of the loan due to high fees, interest rates, balloon payments etc. I had one just last night that when I called to set the appointment where I said , "Now this is an ARM, ---------------------" where I read the terms and the HUD and the BO said "Huh?!?!?". I knew we had problems and I got the lender on the phone before I made the trip. It seems that some lenders constantly have issues and other lenders loans go as smooth as a baby's behind.

Reply by SLB SIGNING SERVICES, INC. - Sherry on 4/4/06 11:46am
Msg #110889

These LO's are supposed to have these loans closed before

you even get to the table...I wholeheartedly agree Glenn..If they did their jobs than these types of situation would be avoided altogether.

Reply by Teddog_CO on 4/4/06 11:51am
Msg #110896

Glenn

You are so correct. That's been my experience too. Lo's and brokers are selling those loans, not explaining or omitting information to bwrs. They just wait to "spring it" on the bwrs hoping that they need the money or not paying attention. You're correct again in regard to knowing the lenders that are likely to cause you grief. Save yourself a trip just read the terms,..etc. Great fun is'nt it!

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 4/4/06 11:53am
Msg #110899

Surprise, Surprise

and in this case, I hate surprises.

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 4/4/06 11:58am
Msg #110903

Re: Surprise, Surprise

In the past I haven't agreed with calling the bo and reading the terms to them prior to the appointment. Once I get started back up I may find myself revisiting this idea if the no signs become a problem.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 4/4/06 2:06pm
Msg #110951

Re: Surprise, Surprise revisited

I didn't use to either, but after having a few cancells at the table and BO exercising their RTC and then bargainig with the SS for payment, I thought there has to be a better way. Also, I probably do it less than 20% of the time, as after a while, you just know what loans are going to be problems. And if you can head problems off at the pass and still stay within the bounds of our definition of what a notary is, then it will save time and money for all parties.

Reply by Dee_Fla on 4/4/06 1:51pm
Msg #110945

I agree with you Glenn 100%!!! I have run into that situation more then once.

this is the other thing I don't understand and I heard by law that the Lender /TC is suppose to provide certain paper work to the Borrower before the closing for review. Why do they wait till the time of the closing?????? isnt that illegal. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Dee, CNSA

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 4/4/06 11:55am
Msg #110901

I hear you and agree

When they agree to use your company they are agreeing to your terms. I'm curious if you have a signed contract for a set time period (how a tc and ss contract goes is something that I don't know about, other than what I think should be in it). If so start marketing in a direct effort to replace them should they not renew your contract.

Oh and yes what a pain having to point out the policy every time this happens. Do they think you are a business person or a fool? (that's total sarcasm) I think many try and treat us like fools to find out what they can get away with. You should not be in the possition on eating a fee when you have a policy in place for such instances. At least you have integrity.

Reply by Teddog_CO on 4/4/06 12:02pm
Msg #110905

Re: I hear you and agree

SarahBeth,

I do not sign contracts anymore. This is my business not anyone else's and I have my own guidelines and policies. First and foremost you hire me - then you need to pay me.

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 4/4/06 12:08pm
Msg #110908

Sorry that was for Sherry

I was looking for input on the ss side. The tc should pay her just as she pays us.

Reply by Dee_Fla on 4/4/06 1:54pm
Msg #110949

Re: I hear you and agree

that is one BIG A M E N !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You hit it right on the nail!!!

should i say it again?? Amen!!!! (i guess they still think we have "stupid" written on our foreheads)

Reply by SLB SIGNING SERVICES, INC. - Sherry on 4/4/06 12:20pm
Msg #110910

Our clients DO NOT sign contracts.

There may be some out there but I personally dont know of any SS that has contracts with TC's except maybe the huge ones....Its funny you should mention that because I have been considering a contract but in reality it wouldnt work because alot of TC's flip flop and use a lot of different agencies for one and for two, I really dont think that it would fly with them. They dont want the aggravation of a contract.

Reply by PAW on 4/4/06 1:31pm
Msg #110939

Re: Our clients DO NOT sign contracts.

But you expect your contractors to agree to a contract. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Isn't that being somewhat hypocritical and janus? Same conditions apply to the signing agent:

... in reality it wouldnt work because alot of TC's flip flop and use a lot of different agencies for one and for two, I really dont think that it would fly with them. They dont want the aggravation of a contract.

Reply by SLB SIGNING SERVICES, INC. - Sherry on 4/4/06 2:04pm
Msg #110950

Do your clients sign contracts?

I expect SA's to sign a contract because they are independent contractors and for legal purposes, I need to have proof that they understand their obligations as a 1099 contractor. There is not the same kind of necessity for a client to sign one.

There are things that I would love to have in a contract for my clients but in all reality, it wouldnt fly with the TC's. Instead of a contract I provide them with a Rates and Policies Manual to refer back to as needed.

I understand what you are saying PAW but I am not sure that a contract for TC's and brokers would really go over well.

Reply by PAW on 4/4/06 2:21pm
Msg #110959

Re: Do your clients sign contracts?

From a title perspective, I can almost guarantee you that an SS contract would have a very difficult time passing muster with compliance, legal, and who knows who else.

Your client (TC) is hiring you (SS) as their independent contractor (vendor) as well, yes? You are not a subsidiary or affiliate of the TC so your vendor relationship with the TC is the same type of relationship that an NSA would have with you. How are you paid by the TC? I would assume either on the HUD or by 1099, just like the NSA is. Sorry, but I don't see any difference in the relationship.

Reply by SLB SIGNING SERVICES, INC. - Sherry on 4/4/06 2:37pm
Msg #110968

That would be like you the SA asking me the SS to sign

a contract. Same scenario. I guess the way that you are explaining it, I should be signing a contract that my clients come up with.

Reply by PAW on 4/4/06 3:03pm
Msg #110971

Re: That would be like you the SA asking me the SS to sign

Yeah, I guess that's the way it would work. Of course, TC's and Lenders typically don't provide a "contract" per se, to their non-affiliated business partners. (At least for this stuff.) So, let me ask you if you, as a Signing Service, would sign a Service Level Agreement or contract if one was presented to you by the Signing Agent? (I don't know of any that would do this, but for the sake of argument...) It seems that most contracts that I've seen are one-sided in favor of the signing service. There is very little protection offered for the signing agent.

Reply by Teddog_CO on 4/4/06 11:35am
Msg #110879

No debate

No debate on this one. When a notary completes their job and returns that pkg. that's the end of our job. We have nothing to do with bwrs' using their RTC. We have completed our job and we are independent contractors we need to be paid our fee for doing our job. I just do not work for companies that pull that "Travel Fee" bologna, nor do I understand their thinking. I think it's just another "don't pay'um tactic" and any excuse will due!

Reply by PAW on 4/4/06 11:54am
Msg #110900

This is directly related to SLB. On the confirmation from SLB is the following notice:

SLB - PAYMENT FOR SUCCESSFUL CLOSING –
$50 cash closing; $75 if 1st only overnight; $100 if 1st only with printing; $150 1st+2nd closing

Now, I'm not sure what SLB's definition of a successful closing is, but in my book, if the loan doesn't go through to funding, disbursement and settlement, then it isn't successful. I am basing this on what I have learned to be a "closing" during the past 15 years. We do not perform a closing as signing agents. We only do a very small piece of the closing, the signing. I would have no problems with that statement if it read "SUCCESSFUL SIGNING", because if I did my job as I was hired to do, then the signing would be successful, whether or not the borrower completed the transaction, rescinded at a later date, or even if the lender didn't fund the loan for whatever reason.

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 4/4/06 12:02pm
Msg #110904

That's the way I read it also. There's a big difference between signing and closing. I see many people refer to sa's as closers. We aren't closers, we are there to perform signing services. I couldn't agree with you more Paul.

Reply by SLB SIGNING SERVICES, INC. - Sherry on 4/4/06 12:04pm
Msg #110906

Never thought of it that way......PAW

Our intention is "Successful Signing"....

Reply by Anonymous on 4/4/06 11:36am
Msg #110881

Sherry Signing Agencies justify their low split to the Notary by guaranteeing that the NSA is paid their full negotiated fee for service rendered. That seemingly unfair split also means that the Agency will "eat" the no takes. Respa has specific rules regarding Notary (public official) conflict of interest so for example if your notary stamp goes on the deed of trust, your fees must be paid by someone. Assignment cancellations however are a gray area that should be discussed with the agency before you sign the contract.

Reply by PAW on 4/4/06 11:37am
Msg #110882

I agree it is a bunch of baloney. (Bologna is a sausage of beef, veal and pork, or a city in northern Italy. Baloney (or boloney), a variant of bologna, is also slang for nonsense.) But, that's not the reason I'm responding. I agree that there's no earthly reason for a TC or Lender, or SS, to cut our fees just because the borrower exercises their right to rescind.

I also have major heartburn when these companies pay nothing more than a trip fee if the borrowers refuse to sign at the table, especially when more time is spent with them trying to resolve the issues than would normally be spent had they signed the documents in the first place. Though "no signs" don't happen too often, they do happen and the signing agent invariably spends more time with the borrower and gets shafted in the end. I'm a supporter of the effort to modernize the Fair Pay Act of the Labor Laws to include something that would guarantee that we would receive fair and equitable pay for the time and effort involved (since we do provide a service and not a product) rather than basing our pay on the result of conditions that we have no control over. [/soapbox]

Reply by SLB SIGNING SERVICES, INC. - Sherry on 4/4/06 11:40am
Msg #110884

Hey PAW...Its just a bunch of veal too..LOL

Thanks for informing me of the difference..actually never knew there was one. I learn something new everyday..

Reply by Charm_AL on 4/4/06 11:42am
Msg #110886

Re: Hey PAW...Its just a bunch of veal too..LOL

lunch time....fried boloney and sauted onions sandwich anyone?

Reply by SLB SIGNING SERVICES, INC. - Sherry on 4/4/06 11:44am
Msg #110888

Do we mean Boloney or Bologna? n/m

Reply by Charm_AL on 4/4/06 11:47am
Msg #110891

Re: Do we mean Boloney or Bologna?

YES....friedwith onions? or raw with dill pickles, mayo and tomato and lettuce....geeze I'm hungry...where's those bad bad chips?

Reply by Joe Ewing on 4/4/06 11:37am
Msg #110883

Sherry Signing Agencies justify their low split to the Notary by guaranteeing that the NSA is paid their full negotiated fee for service rendered. That seemingly unfair split also means that the Agency will "eat" the no takes. Respa has specific rules regarding Notary (public official) conflict of interest so for example if your notary stamp goes on the deed of trust, your fees must be paid by someone. Assignment cancellations however are a gray area that should be discussed with the agency before you sign the contract.

Reply by Terri_CA on 4/4/06 5:34pm
Msg #111008

And technically, a Calfornia Notary is to be paid for the notary act in order for the notarization to be a valid notarization. Wish we could enforce that!

Terri
Lancaster, CA
California Notary Exam Instructor

Reply by TitleGalCA on 4/4/06 2:19pm
Msg #110957

Why is this the TC's fault, not Lenders?

Just curious.

Reply by Accurate Signing Agency, Inc. on 4/4/06 3:18pm
Msg #110974

The SA's primary job is to complete the closing and as long as the closing is done correctly, they should be paid their entire fee whether or not the RTC is utilized.

Reply by Pat/IL on 4/4/06 7:33pm
Msg #111037

Re: Well, I doubt this will satisfy anybody but...

In my experience, the closing/notary fees are generally paid by the borrower, not the title company. For some reason, the appraiser's and credit reporting company's fees are included in the non-refundable application fee. Those guys get paid whether the loan funds or not. The broker, lender and title company do not get paid unless the loan funds.

The SS and SA are not the only ones who have provided unpaid efforts when a loan fails to fund. I will not speak for the broker or lender, only from a title company's perspective. When a title file is opened, a title search is completed. This can take a half-hour or several hours, depending on a number of factors. Hours can be exhausted in assisting with the "title clearance", attempting to obtain releases of purportedly paid off liens still showing of record. At this point, many files reach the end of the road--for reasons too numerable to list. In some cases, the title company has paid an independent abstractor to search the title, usually a non-refundable fee. So, now the title company is out $50-$125 and languishes in the file drawer. The SS and SA never see these files. I would be jealous of any title company with less than 20% of files that cancel before a signing is even scheduled.

For the ones that make it to signing day, it is not uncommon to spend a half-day (on a rotten loan): Chasing the broker for 'stips', being items that the lender requires (in the 30-pages of redundant instructions) prior to signing; pestering the broker for payoff statements; HUD prep; Title doc. prep; review of commitment to ensure that all title exceptions are addressed, the list goes on. If it closes and funds, title companies in our market will net around $425 - $550 (minus 20% off the title premium to the underwriter, in the case of an agent). If the loan signs, doc.s are returned to lender ($15.00) wire received ($10.00) ....borrower rescinds, return wire ($12.00), the title agent has now paid $87.00 $162.00 for the priviledge of wasting its time. That is before paying the SS or SA a trip fee or a full fee.

The examples I use here are only estimates, and other files will be smoother. And, I realize that there are exceptions to most of what I have said. Main point is that the title company is eating costs on far more deals than those that rescind after signing. This is not to say that signing services and signing agents don't deserve payment for services rendered. I agree. I think that everybody should be paid. But I don't think the borrowers will be all that easy to convince.

Sorry for the long post. I will fasten my seat belt now so you can blast me back into cyberspace. Have a good evening.

Reply by Accurate Signing Agency, Inc. on 4/4/06 8:09pm
Msg #111042

Re: Well, I doubt this will satisfy anybody but...

Pat, you hit the nail on the head. But, as with any company or industry, this is the cost of doing business. Some days are great and other days you wish you could just hit the lotto and retire on some beach in Bora Bora....sipping a 55 gallon drum sized Long Island Ice Tea...lol.

Reply by Pat/IL on 4/5/06 9:47am
Msg #111163

Re: Thanks, Accurate...

Oops, hit the wrong button there. The Long Island iced tea would go good with the fried bologna with onions from another post. Yum.

Reply by PAW on 4/4/06 8:59pm
Msg #111050

Re: Well, I doubt this will satisfy anybody but...

While I agree that in the long run, the borrower is paying all the title company fees. However, the signing fee may or may not be paid directly by the borrower, that is, out of escrow. Many title companies that I work with pay me from their operational accounts. Thus, I'm paid whether or not the loan closes and funds are disbursed. Just like the title closer is paid as an employee, except that I'm paid by 1099 as a contractor. Now, if I'm on the HUD, as does happen, then I'm paid from escrow and take my chances with a few title companies. Typically though, I don't work with them too often, unless we have other arrangements and agreements about deals that fail to fund.

There is also the companies that pay extremely well for those that do fund, so it doesn't hurt too much for the few that don't fund. It all comes out in the wash, as they say.

Reply by OConnor Title Guaranty, Inc. - Closing Department on 4/5/06 9:44am
Msg #111158

Re: Indeed it does, PAW n/m