Posted by SamIam_CA on 4/28/06 5:21pm
Msg #116637

Loan fraud discussion anyone?

I posted earlier in the week about a signing I went to where I suspected elder abuse; so I skipped the signing and went directly to the police to report this woman's living conditions.

But what are our obligations as notaries public? Let's hypothesize that in this situation the 'nurses' were not there cussing and there was not trash piled up to the ceiling.

We have a borrower who seems competent signing for a loan at an exorbitant interest rate with added on fees that are in another stratosphere. None of our business - true? But then we have them sign the 1003 and it is very, very obvious that their income is overstated. In addition you know that the property value is at most 50% of what is shown.

What do you do? I'm thinking that as long as we verify their identity that there is nothing we can or SHOULD do - as a notary. But what about as a person - what about non-scrupulous mortgage brokers? Who is responsible for weeding them out and stopping them if not the notaries public?

Reply by Ernest__CT on 4/28/06 5:35pm
Msg #116640

Obligations as Notaries Public versus compassionate people

You've raised a very good topic! This should be a great discussion.

For discussion purposes, let's not limit situations to just mortgages. Let's consider all notarial acts. OK?

If we believe that people are being abused, then we have a responsibility to inform the appropriate authorities, IMHO. Just who ARE those authorities? The local police? The SoS's office (hah!)? What authorities can take legal action quickly enough?

Who decides what the threshold is? If the signer appears to be competent, but the house is filthy? If a third party is present and telling the signer what to do, and the signer appears uncomfortable? What if the signer has eyes full of tears while signing?

In short, where do we draw the line?

Reply by janCA on 4/28/06 6:53pm
Msg #116655

Re: Obligations as Notaries Public versus compassionate people

When I took the notary class over five years ago, a point that was brought up was "coercion". If a third party is present and making the signer feel uncomfortable and the notary suspects that the signer is being forced or "coerced", into signing a document, the notary should refuse to do the notarization and report the incident to the police. And if the notary feels he/she will be in danger if he/she does not notarize the document, then do the notarization but again, report the incident to the police.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/28/06 5:49pm
Msg #116643

I say go with your gut and don't ask the question on NR.

Some people are in this for the dollar. I am, but I am a person too and will act accordingly. If I saw what I truly believed was abuse in ANY JOB wild horses would not be able to drag me off to shut me up.

It's a personal judgment call not based on professional merit. IMHO...purists, feel free to throw that torch. I'm ready to eat fire.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/28/06 5:53pm
Msg #116645

BTW - a notary from NV did some things that I consider humanitarian. It was published in Marlene's organization's website at one time. Can't post the link because it's a competing type of organization. Maybe she'll leave a profile link for us to click...

Reply by LkArrowhd/CA on 4/28/06 5:55pm
Msg #116646

Re: Loan fraud discussion anyone? Nope I'm with you

make your call on what your eyeballs see.......my gut instinct has been right most of my life.....

Reply by SamIam_CA on 4/28/06 6:12pm
Msg #116649

Re: Loan fraud discussion anyone? Nope I'm with you

I'm definitely going with my gut! I'm just wondering if there should be guidelines set by the SoS.

I was told yesterday that lending institutions are now 'mandated reporters' for suspected elder abuse in California. I wonder if notaries should be mandated reporters to (who? the Feds?) for suspected loan fraud.

Anyone else remember that great post about the brother and sister and the goat-**cker??

Reply by hcampersFL on 4/28/06 9:14pm
Msg #116693

Not to change the subject but it was a sheep...I'll NEVER

forget that story. Thanks Angelina I can't sleep anymore because I have nothing to count.
b.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 4/28/06 6:18pm
Msg #116650

Re: Loan fraud discussion anyone? Nope I'm with you

If you see what you think may be elder abuse, you can call the department of social services. There is a department that handles senior citzen problems. They were a big help to me when I had some issues with how to work finances out for my dad's (he's 92) extended care. They also handle elder abuse.

As far as our job titles and legal obligations according to law to be impartial? Well our first job title that we are born with and will die with is "Human Being".

Reply by GenB_CA on 4/28/06 8:50pm
Msg #116685

Re: Nope I'm with you... be a decent person...

If you see what may be abuse, definitely report it. Just remember, we're all growing older and may someday find ourselves in need of the kindness of strangers. (Though I hope none of us ever fall prey to the abusive type).

Here's a good place for info if you have any doubts.

http://ag.ca.gov/bmfea/resources.htm

Reply by hcampersFL on 4/28/06 9:18pm
Msg #116695

Re: Nope I'm with you... be a decent person...

When I worked in the Child care field I was a mandatory reporter of child abuse. If I suspected abuse I would call the proper authority's. I don't think it would matter to me if I pissed off the LO or anyone else involved.
I have to live with myself and now that I'm not sleeping I have way to much time on my hands.
b.

Reply by DonR_NYC on 4/28/06 8:26pm
Msg #116675

OK here is my two cents. One of the basic functions of a notary public is to prevent fraud but no one really defines how other than by ensuring that the document signer is competent and is not being forced into signing a document. If the signer shows any sign that they are not competent then the notary should stop the notarization. With that said notaries must be careful in how they determine whether or not a person is competent. Without some formailized training backing you up you could face explaining your action in declaring a person "not competent" to sign a document (before anyone jumps on me after 25 years as a medic in NYC I have that training and as I'm still licensed I'm a mandatory reporter of elder abuse).

Your statement "it is very, very obvious that their income is overstated. In addition you know that the property value is at most 50% of what is shown." You do not know the signers history. The could live like they are the poorest people on earth yet they have large bank accounts (seen plenty that looked like they lived on the streets but in reality had $100's of thousands in the bank; ain't NYC great). And how, unless you are a licensed appraiser, can you really determine the property value? There are a lot of pit falls here.

Bottom line; from a professional stand point make sure you are on solid ground. From a human stand point; go with your gut. In most cases your gut feeling is correct.

Reply by LauriecPA on 4/28/06 8:44pm
Msg #116682

Does anyone remember reading about that mother/son con artist team in NY...they made a few tv movies about them. Shoot, I can't think of their name, Kimes or something like that. I read that a notary public was the person responsible for their getting caught. Similar situation, the notary was uncomfortable in whatever the situation was, them swindling an older couple out of a property, reported them to authorities and that's how they were caught. I think it was in one of the NNA magazines. (Probably the only issue I read! lol)

Reply by LkArrowhd/CA on 4/28/06 11:09pm
Msg #116707

Re: Loan fraud discussion anyone? Yes I remember them a

mother and son, looking unsuspecting I might add....horrible horrible mother and son team!

Reply by Ndwa on 4/29/06 5:06am
Msg #116732

Re: Loan fraud discussion anyone? Yes I remember them a

I did one earlier this month where BO was elderly competent but wasn't physically able to sign all the docs due to illness. Her signature worsen one after another few pages into the stack and as if she would die trying. Her daughter was there jumping up and down, threatening mom about the bills and telling me to continue no matter how bad the signatures look since I'm the witness. I said, sorry lady, that's not how it work. She then pulled out a POA signed/sealed a week ago wanting to sign the docs. I firmly said NO and that she needs to contact her LO/broker about signing as AIF b/c my instruction didn't say anything about a POA signing.

I didn't report to any authority but told TC that I suspect BO might being taken advantage by family member(s). The loan was redrawn with lender approved POA and signed on Monday by the daughter while mom was in the hospital.