Posted by Winston_Tn on 4/11/06 11:39am
Msg #112687

Membership Dues

I realize said subject matter is devisive and may elicit deep divergences of opinion , yet retaining my cliquemembership, and all the many advantages thereof, requires a one post minimum...therefore....

Having stated in a previous post, that whereas I may not agree with the current political edicts (re: notarizing asset purchases for 'undocumented immigrants'), it is imperative that I abide by, and comply with, this tenet.

Now as wearisome as it may be to uphold my controversal capitalist image, I siezed this obvious opportunity, and elected to engage the many, whom were protesting the comprehensive immigration overhauls that include fair wages, respect in the workplace, in-state college tuition, and driver's licenses for 'undocumented immigrants' (politically correct term for 'illegal aliens' ). This is House Bill 4437, which would make it a felony to be in the U.S. illegally.

My intention was to adhere to Keynesian 'greed modified' macroeconomic principals, and selfishly profit by dissecting a small plat into several thousand one foot by one foot parcels, which I would then easily persuade the sale and legal conveyence of, to all whom could attain an EIN, for a mere $10,000.00 per unit (owner financed-good terms). A meager fee to effectively circumvent future prosecution and deportation, or so my pitch would go.... Ahh, but I regress..

My opportunistic venture was suspended, and I became extremely appalled, as a group of Mexican Nationalist, carrying THEIR country's flag, and bearing sings written in some 'NON-ENGLISH' cryptic crap, accosted my personal space chanting "MEXICO! MEXICO! MEXICO! MEXICO!....." This was not similar to a Canadian illegal saying " I love the USA, have a Molson..eh?", this was 'in your face' indignation. Normally, I would not succumb to such impudence and audaciousness, as anyone who knows me would gladly aver. I am myself, continuing the introspection, trying to understand why I found this display contemptuous, and despicable.

Possibly...I am jealous of these 'burro babies' having dual citizenship and access to housing, medicaid, food stamps, etc, and yet, not remitting a cent to the U.S. Government for said services. Ever.

Possibly...it is because I paid $365 dollars to register my vehicle this year, and these 'undocumented immigrants' are happily driving around with their Chihuahua license plates.

Possibly... its my belief that if one cannot respect the border doctrines, one will display the same disregard of other laws

Possibly...and most likely... it is because when my great grandfather came to this country he had to learn English, be sponsored by an existing citizen, and pay for his own healthcare. He also took care of his family by working hard, learning, and pursuing education. He loved this country although he didnt have the right to vote. He earned that right by becoming a USA citizen. Yes, he was sad of the citizenship he had to forfeit, and loved the country from whence he came ...but this took no measure to the pride he had becoming an American citizen.

I believe groups like this, as well-intentioned as they may be, have created their own solution.....

As they wave their "flags of choice", shouting "their countries" names.....
We just roll a few greyhound buses around...
The buses can stop at the flag of the countries delegates....
Cry, "ALL ABOOOOOOARD"

Simple Solution. They call the bus... they must get on the bus.

BTW..Isn't calling an illegal alien an undocumented immigrant sort of like calling a burglar an uninvited house guest ?


Disclaimer: All statements herein are JMHO and can by no means be reflective in part or in whole, of those opinions that may be offered implicitly or explicitly by the clique. Some statements may be provided for self-amusement, or to invoke chaos and dissension, or have been willingly written for the attenuation of boredom.

Reply by ColleenCA on 4/11/06 11:56am
Msg #112691

Re: Very Well Said! n/m

Reply by Charles_Ca on 4/11/06 11:57am
Msg #112692

Re: Membership Dues, I think that you speak the thoughts

of many Winston! Some of the things that bother me are the unabashed implication that their claims are legitimate and are somehow similar to those of black people during the civil rights protests of the '60s. There was no question that the black people in the '60s were not fully franchised members while they were without question citizens of this country. The black people were fighting for rights that were theirs. The people who are protesting today have no rights sine they are not citizens or even legal aliens. I despise the term immigrant to be used for theses people because immigrant presupposes a right to entry. My mother was an immigrant but she was not an illegal intruder, she went through the process and became a productive member of this society and a US citizen. There are means. I know a lot of people who immigrated legally from Mexico to the US and while the news reporters seem to ignore them I know some who are very resentful of the actions of the protesters.

Vicente Fox has made illegal entrance to the US a part of his economic policy but if that if the case why don't we have the same rights in Mexico. Most citizens of the US can not enter Mexico and go to work legally. I had to help get my cousin out of jail many years ago because she went to work for a jeweller in Puerto Vallarta as an illegal alien and she was thrown in jail (not a pleasant experience in Mexico). One of the major problems I have is the way this is being handled in the media. I am sick and tired of the third estate trying to take over the country by their constant and now blatant attempts to form opinion!

Reply by dickb/wi on 4/11/06 12:41pm
Msg #112695

very well articulated and i am 100% in agreement......my grand parents on my mothers side of swiss and german nationality, learned to speak english, took out citizenship and became proud americans the proper way and never took a dime from the government all through the depression......my great grand parents on my dads fathers side did likewise.....my great great grand parents on my dads mothers side were us citizens of french nationality and native american......i say non citizens do not have any rights, untill they become citizens and that includes the first amendment....thanks for the post winston.......

Reply by SueW/Tn on 4/11/06 12:50pm
Msg #112698

Well written....reminds me of a senior lady friend of mine. 15 years ago she and her husband decided to make their dream come true, sold every stick of furniture, had a sail boat manufactured to their specs and set off on the high seas. Then took port in Japan and fell in love with the place, decided to stay awhile. After 3 years though they pulled anchor and left, coming back home. She told me it was a wonderful country but extremely difficult to navigate the streets having to hail taxi's etc. whenever you wanted to go somewhere. I asked her why she didn't buy a car and do it herself and she said "because they will not allow you a drivers license UNLESS you can speak and read their language". Case closed. (most likely different now but speaks volumns)

Reply by dickb/wi on 4/11/06 1:03pm
Msg #112701

thanks sue....... n/m

Reply by TitleGalCA on 4/11/06 1:33pm
Msg #112706

But not here. Nope, we out of our national guilt for something we have no reason to be guilty over, print everything in Spanish.

I've been waiting to see traffic jams, freeway jams, due to protestors as I live in a heavily hispanic area, with alot of illegal aliens due to our citrus/ag production. But so, far, nothing.

I'll never forget one Saturday where I was in the emergency room. My daughter had fractured a small bone in her foot while playing soccer and the emergency room was FILLED with Mexican families. Not just the sick person and someone to drive them, but the entire flippin family. We had to wait 3 hours to be seen, while emergency room staff treated kids with fevers (who had no doctor of course).

My hospital co-pay $50. They got it for free.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 4/11/06 1:45pm
Msg #112710

I hear your anger TG but...

I'm thinking...hmmm...we're upset with the wrong end of the snake. I can still remember when "homeless" was a relatively unused word and then suddenly homeless people were on every street corner of the country. We didn't put the blame where it belonged but rather faulted the homeless for not wanting to work. We're faulting the aliens without thinking who is actually allowing this to happen...that would be our elected officials. Our government is the one that subsidizes (?) medical facilities. Our government is the one demanding things be printed in lots of different languages, not just spanish. How can someone that's here illegally get medical help, have their bill paid and go home to perhaps some sort of government housing? Simple...OUR government is paying the bill. We should be livid with those in power that vote to spend money encouraging this. Just take a look at Florida, Miami to be more precise. 25 years ago it was relatively "American", today you need to take your own translator if you're going shopping. Those in power realized then that Floridians would take their rath out on the aliens, not on them and by the looks of things it worked. Smoke and mirrors, keeps you away from looking at the source, gives them time to implement their agenda. I think the "new world order" is closer than any of us think. JMHO

Reply by TitleGalCA on 4/11/06 2:04pm
Msg #112715

Re: I hear your anger TG but...

Yes, but now that our elected officials are trying to do something (House bill 4437 that Winston mentioned) everybody is up in arms. Protests, kids are leaving class, there's the in-your-face crowd, on and on it goes just because someone IS making an attempt stop the flow. As in all things, it's the excess that's happening in the here and now.

In California it's a HUGE problem. KFI Radio (John/Ken) does whole DAYS on the Topic. It's the southern states that are impacted the most as the point of entry, but even northern states are affected now. It's an economics issues at this point, we simply can't do this anymore. Southern california has no hospitals anymore, trauma centers are shut down due to NO MONEY. My son works for AMR ambulance and he see's the people using the system and it makes him sick, especially since the kid couldn't get any insurance for several months and had strep throat, off work, while illegals get free rides in his ambulance. It's got to stop, the till has run dry!

Reply by Beth/MD on 4/11/06 2:38pm
Msg #112728

Re: TitleGal has my vote!

This past weekend there were big protestors here in DC. Talk about the "in-your-face" crowd. I also feel that the till has run dry. I'm angry every time my grandparents have to worry about paying for their meds when illegals are getting theirs free.

Reply by Winston_Tn on 4/11/06 2:32pm
Msg #112726

Re: Good point SueW..but...

We should pay close attention to BOTH ends of this snake. I believe it apparent that Senators are legislating against the will of American voters. Advocates of guest-worker/amnesty bills will find it frustratingly hard to defend their arrogant plans by their preferred tactic of slandering those who disagree with them as racist, nativist and xenophobic. It is intellectually dishonest to say, as President Bush does, that immigrants 'do jobs that Americans will not do.' The willingness of Americans to do a job depends on how much that job pays - and the reason jobs pay too little to attract native-born Americans is competition from poorly paid immigrants." Thusly do the two leading economic writers for the nation's two leading liberal newspapers summarily debunk the economic underpinning of the president's and the Senate's immigration proposals. We are all aware low-skill immigrants don't pay enough taxes to cover the cost of the government benefits they receive, and we will not even attempt to ascertain the cost associated with the increasing violence, non-prosecution, or the local governments tied hands in these matters. The public demand to protect our borders will triumph sooner or later. And, the more brazen the opposing politicians, the sooner will come the triumph.

So legislate on, you proud and foolish senators - and hasten your political demise.

P.S. Sorry, I have never been accused of naiveté, yet, I just can't purchase a ticket for your "new world order" train ... ( Is there a Bar Car ?)

Reply by ColleenCA on 4/11/06 1:49pm
Msg #112711

Re: TitleGalCA

I know what you mean. We are in the same county. Wait until it comes directly to your neighborhood. In Jan. a house on our block sold and there are 25 (yes, 25) men living in a 4bdrm single family home. They have sectioned off with plywood, small living spaces and apparently someone was living in a shed in the backyard. Someone sleeps in a van in the driveway with an electrical cord going into the garage. No one speaks english. There are 14 cars taking up parking space on the street and different men in and out on bikes. The city says their hands are tied as to what they can legally do to stop this illegal boarding house. This becomes a quality of life issue for everyone in the neighborhood as well as a safety hazard. There was a similar house like this in our city that burned down last summer and a child died in that fire!

Reply by Charles_Ca on 4/11/06 3:47pm
Msg #112762

Colleen - There are health and welfare standards

available for the county and city to use. The State of California is actually more liberal than HUD. The formula is 2 people per bedroom plus 1 for the state of California and 2 people per bedroom for HUD. A tho bedroom home means a maximum of five occupants under Ca lawas and 4 occupants under HUD. Also if there are additional partitions in the home you should notify your building department, there is a complaint process available. I've had this problem in one of my apartment buildings and now I enforce the State Housing Code strictly, because the wear and tear on property is exponential with the occupancy and it causes everything to look run down.

Reply by ColleenCA on 4/11/06 4:06pm
Msg #112768

Re: Charles, I Sent You An Email. Thanks! n/m

Reply by Anonymous on 4/11/06 3:08pm
Msg #112749

Playing soccer or picking lettuce?

Which would you rather your child do after school and for the rest of her life?

I don't have insurance at all, but you got off for $50. Is that fair?

Reply by TitleGalCA on 4/11/06 3:40pm
Msg #112760

Of course it's fair

Who decided I have to carry several others with my hard earned money? "got off for $50"??? Excuse me, try $2400 per year in premiums only, forget the co-pays.

Call Blue Cross they do self-insured's all the time, and quit expecting others to take care of you. If you're able to own a computer and post here, your able to buy your own insurance.

Reply by Anonymous on 4/11/06 3:51pm
Msg #112763

Never assume I don't pay my way.

I said I didn't have insurance - my medical conditions are uninsurable - I didn't say I didn't pay my bills or my taxes or my elderly parents' mortgage or my kids' college tuition. Since you're not carrying me, how about carrying someone less fortunate in my place? Pass it on. . .

Reply by TitleGalCA on 4/11/06 3:54pm
Msg #112766

Re: Never assume I don't pay my way.

This conversation wasn't about someone less fortunate, that is entirely a different matter! The discussion was about illegals that WON'T contribute.

Of course carrying someone with life circumstances beyond their control is a given. My comments were toward those who "won't" not "can't".

Reply by Anonymous on 4/11/06 4:16pm
Msg #112774

Illegals

Substitute "blacks" or any other group for "illegals" and it's the same argument, just less politically correct. It doesn't matter how a person got here, it's what they do once they're here that makes an impact.

"Won't, can't, don't" - hard to sort us all out, isn't it. America has a big heart, we'll survive just fine.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 4/11/06 4:19pm
Msg #112775

I need therefore I must have!

Sounds like the old entitlement mentality again!

Reply by TitleGalCA on 4/11/06 4:23pm
Msg #112776

Re: Illegals Anon

America does have a big heart, but there is a limit to it's resources.

Besides you're speaking a fundamentally different language than I do so it's hard to communicate.

Reply by ColleenCA on 4/11/06 4:38pm
Msg #112782

Re: Anon What Are You Talking About???

How can you compare the color of someone's skin to someone's illegal status? One has nothing to do with the other. Those who came here the legal way have every right to be here. Those that didn't don't. Plain and simple. It amazes me that every time someone brings up the illegal issue that someone has to come along and play the "race" card. Geez!

Reply by TitleGalCA on 4/11/06 4:42pm
Msg #112785

and along with the race card

comes the national guilt syndrome, resulting in the the cost of printing everything in Spanish, English as a second language in school, etc. I'm sick of it.

Reply by Charm_AL on 4/11/06 4:44pm
Msg #112786

Re: and along with the race card

that Spanish in schools should be thrown out like E-bonics. Just ridiculous.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 4/11/06 4:45pm
Msg #112788

E-bonics. Forgot about THAT fiasco. n/m

Reply by Sign/SealCO on 4/12/06 9:00am
Msg #112948

Re: we should take a hint from the French

when in their country, speak "their" language or don't speak at all.

Reply by Anonymous on 4/12/06 8:17am
Msg #112942

Ummm, it is a race thing

Or at least an ethnic thing. Y'all are berating Mexican illegals, or at least Spanish-speaking illegals. Instead of venting your anger on this population, take it where the money talks - Congress. Special interests are passing the legislation you're railing against.

By the way, I read somewhere that in a few short years, whites will be the minority in America.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/12/06 2:38pm
Msg #113105

Re: Ummm, it is a race thing

**By the way, I read somewhere that in a few short years, whites will be the minority in America. **

What of it? That's been predicted for many, many years. Only someone who felt threatened by it or someone who wanted to be threatening with it would mention that.

Thank goodness I live in a culturally diversified place where I take no more notice of race than I do of hair color.

Reply by Charm_AL on 4/11/06 4:26pm
Msg #112777

Re: Illegals

What a dumb ass reply....Blacks??? They were stolen and brought here as prisoners to be sold as slaves.

Won't, can't and don't is NOT hard to sort out. Go back to the way it was done years and years ago. Yes, we are all 'a big melting pot'. Whoopie dooo...get a green card, study American laws, learn our Constitution, learn English and pay your way. PERIOD. My Ancestors did it, why can't the illegals do it? Gee let's look up at the powers that be...what a joke. Yes, I voted for Bush, only because...well you know.

Forget the big heart crap -

Reply by LilyMD on 4/11/06 4:47pm
Msg #112789

Re: Illegals...anon

Look, if someone who is here legally, whether that be by birth or naturalization, is doing without. Yet, someone who is here illegally is reaping the benefits of an American society, that's just criminal in my opinion. You can't substitute one ethnic group for another in this argument. This is strictly about those who use resources that should be used by those who have a right to it. I have a serious issue with those who feel it's okay for us to just continually pick up the tab for those who do nothing (or little) to "put back." They're here illegally. That means not lawful. Stop trying to win this with a bleeding heart. It's not about carrying the less fortunate. And by the way, my grandparents also came to this country in the early 1900's. They learned English...not one thing was printed in Italian for them.

Reply by LilyMD on 4/11/06 4:49pm
Msg #112790

Re: Illegals...anon, sorry about the mispunctuation. n/m

Reply by Winston_Tn on 4/11/06 4:37pm
Msg #112781

Re: Playing soccer or picking lettuce?

This is a diversionary and near-sighted question. I can only express regret for not being able to articulate my point. I would rather my child ( him, not her ) balance picking lettuce at a FAIR wage to assist in their education expences, AND play soccer, gain independance, an education, and a career that has insurance benefits. Why do you present this issue as black and white?

Reply by Charm_AL on 4/11/06 4:56pm
Msg #112793

Re: Playing soccer or picking lettuce?

that's the whole thing...The corporations can get away with paying the illegals a 1/4 of what they would 'lagally' have to pay an American citzen. Fat cats, getting fatter, while we lose benefits, jobs, gas goes up and what the hell is going on?

Reply by Anonymous on 4/12/06 8:20am
Msg #112943

Re: Playing soccer or picking lettuce?

Because it is black and white. If we paid a FAIR wage to pick lettuce, we would not pay $5 to buy the head of lettuce. We would import more of it from Chile where they don't have to pay a FAIR wage.

Reply by Winston_Tn on 4/12/06 9:28am
Msg #112952

Re: Playing soccer or picking lettuce?

Anon... For the astute patrons of logic, you have provided the foundation for 'resting my case', and seemingly reinforced same. You state "Because it is Black and white"... yet you support your belief with 'one of many' examples that lead directly to Grey.
I would submit that you need to continue with your scenario...projected within current economic models...

If we buy lettuce from Chile....then what? What is my child doing to earn extra $? What are the illegals doing? Who is playing soccer... the lettuce producers? Who benefits..who loses in this rebalancing of goods and wages? I.E. what is the impact of natural socioeconomic attrition?

Reply by Anonymous on 4/12/06 11:47am
Msg #113023

Re: Playing soccer or picking lettuce?

Oooooh, goody, word games with Winston!

Your child will do just fine. He won't be picking lettuce, but he'll be de-tassling corn in the fields or weeding flower beds in nurseries or slinging hash at McDonalds or lifeguarding or one of the countless other summer jobs for teens on their way to college, looking forward to the better opportunities their education and their families can provide.

The illegals are still picking lettuce, cleaning hotel rooms, and busing dishes in family restaurants, passing up better opportunities because they are undocumented.

The unsound logic is from those who say "legislate them back to Mexico!" They're here. They're not getting on any bus to go back to a country they sacrificed to get away from. Deal with it. Help them assimilate. If it bugs you they don't speak English, help them learn English. If it bugs you they live 15 to an apartment to save money, pay them a living wage or help them find better living conditions. If it bugs you they're using our health services, help them get documented so they can dump their wages into the same tax hole as the rest of us. Stop regarding them as fifth-class citizens and start seeing them as people. They're not taking anything away from us we weren't willing to give up in the first place. We're just afraid of becoming outnumbered, that's all. They were here during the housing boom and signing agents were too busy to complain about them then. Now that business is not as good (so we hear), it's time to look around and see what scapegoats we can find for a failing political economy.

Socioeconomic attrition, my Aunt Fanny.

Reply by Winston_Tn on 4/12/06 1:37pm
Msg #113077

Re: Playing soccer or picking lettuce?

I am delighted that you enjoy the challenge, however your reluctance to give any dimentional breadth ( as requested ) or factual credence other than the same shallow rhetoric, leaves me
ambivalent as to continuing this dialogue...however, for the sake of attaining something tangible from you, let your Aunt Fanny digest the following;

Illegal aliens have cost billions of taxpayer-funded dollars for medical services. Dozens of hospitals in Texas, New Mexico Arizona, and California, have been forced to close or face bankruptcy because of federally-mandated programs requiring free emergency room services to illegal aliens. Taxpayers pay half-a-billion dollars per year incarcerating illegal alien criminals.

Illegal immigrants send a total of $30 billion to their home countries on an annual basis. Mexico receives $13.3 billion a year. The largest amount in remittances ($9.6 billion) is sent from California, followed by New York ($3.6 billion), Texas ($3.2 billion) and Florida ($2.5 billion). Guess that will bolster the peso and reduce the $18 billion defecit. Does your Aunt Fanny have stock in Dos Eqis ?

In a recent year in Colorado, the state's emergency Medicaid program paid an estimated $30 million in hospital and physician delivery costs for about 6,000 illegal immigrant mothers - average of $5,000 per baby. Those 6,000 births to illegal aliens represent 40% of the births paid for by Medicaid in Colorado. Those 6,000 babies immediately became U.S. citizens and qualified for full Medicaid services, with a cost yet to be tabulated.

An illegal alien mother only has to say she is "undocumented" in order to receive immediate - and free - medical care. Denver Health is now proposing that taxpayers approve a bond issue to pay for a bigger obstetrics unit. The present unit was built for 1,600 births a year, yet last year alone it handled 3,500.

"Mexican ambulance drivers are driving their hospital patients who can't pay for medical care in Mexico, to facilities in the United States. They know that the federal Emergency Medical Act mandates that U.S. hospitals with emergency-room services must treat anyone who requires care, including illegal aliens.

Medical service for Americans in affected communities is being severely damaged as hospitals absorb more than $200 million in unreimbursed costs. Some emergency rooms have shut down because they cannot afford to stay open. Local tax-paying Americans are either denied medical care or have to wait in long lines for service as the illegals flood the facilities. In California, the losses are calculated to be about $79 million, with $74 million in Texas, $31 million in Arizona, and $6 million in New Mexico." Hope Aunt Fanny is in good health.

"In-state tuition" is the college tuition that a resident pays to a public college or university in their home state. This is typically much less than the tuition charged to students who come from out-of-state. Allowing an illegal alien student to pay less than an American student is wrong, yet this is currently being promoted in Congress under the DREAM act and in a few state.

The slogan, “Jobs Americans won’t do,” has now emerged as the presidential mantra for importing more foreign labor. The leader of the free world offers an assurance that Americans have graduated to a better life....

Unlike the Americans, Mexican president Vicente Fox Quesada has a plan for the US/Mexican border. He means to eliminate it. In the absence of any rational American response, Mexico may succeed in imposing an open border on a paralyzed U.S. More than most Americans realize, Mexico already has.

Vicente Fox's grand ambitions are published in a five year plan, the Plan Nacional de Desarrollo 2001-2006, recently presented to Mexico's Congress... Have Aunt Fanny
peruse this ( yes, it in in spanish )


In FACT, Americans do these jobs. Americans do these jobs with pride. Americans have thrived on these jobs over the centuries. The Americans doing these jobs don’t look any different. They wear the face of America. They do not shrink from work. Americans just resist enslaved wages and indecent working conditions. The soul of America is still found in our commitment to a work ethic. A presidential slogan to the contrary offends the soul of America.


Maybe, just maybe, your Aunt Fanny is just trying to be safe.

"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."
- Voltaire

Reply by TitleGalCA on 4/12/06 1:57pm
Msg #113084

Re: Playing soccer or....I'm heading the campaign to

elect Winston for President. Please send your contributions to the address on my profile.

Reply by Winston_Tn on 4/12/06 1:55pm
Msg #113083

Re: Playing soccer or picking lettuce?

"They're not taking anything away from us we weren't willing to give up in the first place"

Totally inane! You don't get out much...do you ?

My great Grandfather ( who knew your Aunt Fanny BTW ), alway said " Never argue with stupid ... cause someone might not know the difference" . With that in mind, I will not discuss this issue with you further, Mr/Ms Anon, but must insist that your Aunt Fanny try to;

Enter Mexico illegally. Never mind immigration quotas, visas, international law, or any of that nonsense.
Once there, demand that the local government provide free medical care for you and your entire family.
Demand bilingual nurses, doctors and teachers for your children.
Demand free bilingual local government forms, bulletins, etc. Procreate abundantly.
Deflect any criticism of this allegedly irresponsible reproductive behavior with, "It is a cultural U.S.A. thing. You would not understand, pal."
Keep your American identity strong. Fly Old Glory from your rooftop, or proudly display it in your front window or on your car bumper.
Speak only English at home and in public and insist that your children do likewise.
Demand classes on American culture in the Mexican school system.
Demand a Mexican drivers license. This will afford other legal rights and will go far to legitimize your unauthorized, illegal, presence in Mexico.
Drive around with no liability insurance and ignore local traffic laws.
Insist that local Mexican law enforcement teach English to all its officers.

Good luck Anon Amigo! You'll be demanding for the rest of time or soon be dead, because it will never happen. It will not happen in Mexico or any other country in the world except right here in the good old United States, land of the naive and stupid, of Anons, and of idiotic politicians.

For me...I must side with Theodore Roosevelt's ideas on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN in 1907... you DO know who Teddy R. was, or have heard of him....yes?

"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Reply by Anonymous on 4/12/06 2:08pm
Msg #113087

Touch a nerve?

Comparing America today with America in 1907. . .well, it just isn't logical. Next you'll be telling us you're a proponent of the Aryan Nation.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 4/12/06 2:14pm
Msg #113091

Admit defeat, Anon. It's abundantly clear n/m

Reply by Winston_Tn on 4/12/06 2:19pm
Msg #113093

Re: Touch a nerve?

Oh..I see..The Constitution then "just isn't logical", and if I support american ideals, I belong to an anti-semantic white supremist paramilitary hate group. Sooo, law abiding and anti-crime = Aryan Nation. ROFL... Thanks Anon



P.S. "I'm not arguing grandfather...I'm laughing...really"

Reply by Anonymous on 4/12/06 2:29pm
Msg #113102

And now we revert to making fun and laughing in acronyms

I believe in community. You believe in being "safe." Where's the common ground?

Reply by Winston_Tn on 4/12/06 3:07pm
Msg #113113

Re: And now we revert to making fun and laughing in acronyms

Wrong again nebulus anon.... I believe in community also, only the population of my community does not consist of criminals tearing at the very fabric of the community itsself. As far as safe? Explain...put some meat in your post. This unsubstantiated 'shoot from your Aunt Fanny' leans towards childish banter, leaving no room to develop mature debate. Maybe return when you become lucid...yes? Laughing in acronyms ??????

Reply by Anonymous on 4/12/06 3:34pm
Msg #113120

Re: ROFL

and you should not revert to cliches - "tearing at the very fabric of the community itsself"

You said, "Maybe, just maybe, your Aunt Fanny just wants to be safe." I gleaned from that your desire to be safe.

You strive to bury us in words that have many syllables but no real meaning for the discussion at hand.:"Socioeconomic attrition." Talk down to me, Winston - polemics in a more common language.

My question is this: With so many real criminals in our society, why direct so much wrath to this particular population?

Reply by Charm_AL on 4/12/06 5:06pm
Msg #113134

Re: ROFL

I think Winstons use of that cliche was appropiate. I think that you have no foundation in this debate and have not, or cannot address a single point that Winston has directed to you. Your inability to respond in an intelligent manner seems to display the fact that you are illiterate...therefore anyone posting to you would be talking down to you...with the exception of remedial first graders. I agree with you on the polemics issue though..."practice of theological controversy to refute errors of doctrine"....since you seem to have no doctrine.
Your distinction between "this particular population" and "real criminals" also shows two things.. 1) you haven't read the FACTS that Winston posted...and...2) You yourself do not have the ability to uphold the current laws of this country. Give it up Anon-PA

Reply by Anonymous on 4/13/06 10:35am
Msg #113291

Last post for those still following

I don't know where Winston got his statistics, so I don't know how reliable they are, so I don't debate them. Maybe he reads the same articles (even the ones in Spanish) and watches the same news programs and talks to the same people I do. Same information, different conclusions - that's how statistics work.

A polemic is "A controversial argument, especially one refuting or attacking a specific opinion or doctrine." Same word, different dictionaries.

I asked Winston for common ground for our discussion, but he couldn't find any. And neither can you. You both made your diatribes all about me, and I'm not the issue.

Reply by Winston_Tn on 4/13/06 11:00am
Msg #113308

Re: Last post for those still following

Wrong again ego-centric anon. This was never about you. This was about asking you to provide ANY substance to your opinion. This was about you replying with ANY intelligent, educated thought on the common ground of the impact of undocumented immigrants. This is about the disregard for;

Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, "Improper Entry by Alien," any citizen of any country other than the United States who:

Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or
Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact; has committed a federal crime.

Violations are punishable by criminal fines and imprisonment for up to six months. Repeat offenses can bring up to two years in prison. Additional civil fines may be imposed at the discretion of immigration judges, but civil fines do not negate the criminal sanctions or nature of the offense.

This was about current politics, and those contending that it is not true that immigrants take American jobs. Those that maintain that immigrants perform "jobs Americans won't do" — work that is dangerous, unpleasant or just plain hard. The list of "jobs Americans won't do" used to consist of just agricultural labor, ditch digging and washing dishes. However, as immigrants expand into other work categories, those jobs now include gardening, carpentry, roofing and even computer programming. Of course, the idea that there are "jobs Americans won't do" is a myth put out by businesses that want an endless supply of cheap labor, and the press uncritically repeats the lie. The fact is when wages become depressed by an immigrant-flooded labor pool, Americans can no longer survive on the shrunken incomes. Immigration functions as a subsidy to business, because industry gets cheap labor and the taxpayers must pay the collateral costs.

This was about crime statistics which can be verified...including these;
• In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

• A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 2005 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

• The leadership of the Columbia Lil’ Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former assistant U.S. attorney Luis Li. Francisco Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and an illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.

This was about ineffectual law enforcement, and jurisprudence due to politics and the greed of business.

This was about provoking some thought to debate and ARRIVE at a common ground, vs infantile displays of insecurity and nebulus unsubstantiated opinion.

This was about reaching a conclusion such as the need for a comprehensive program to end illegal immigration; that means ensuring that people who enter illegally or overstay their lawful status will not be able to obtain employment, public assistance benefits, public education, public housing, or any other taxpayer-funded benefit without detection.

The three major components of immigration control--deterrence, apprehension and removal--need to be strengthened by Congress and the Executive Branch if effective control is ever to be reestablished. Controlling illegal immigration requires a balanced approach with a full range of enforcement improvements that go far beyond the border. These include many procedural reforms, beefed up investigation capacity, asylum reform, documents improvements, major improvements in INS detention and deportation procedures, limitations on judicial review, improved intelligence capacity, greatly improved state/federal cooperation, and added resources.

This was about effective control and management of the laws against illegal immigration requiring adequate resources. and those costs more than offsetting the savings to states, counties, communities, and school districts across the nation.

It was NEVER about ANON

Reply by Charm_AL on 4/13/06 11:10am
Msg #113311

Ummm....Winston Dear

You'll see that there are a few posters here that post just because they have nothing better to do and the anon and a few others try to absorb this 'air' of knowledge. Someone of your intelligence need not be bothered by the tripe they spew. Anon from PA (haha) used to pick on Brenda because she is intelligent. Now you are the target. Take it for what it is, someone desperately needs attention and a life.

Reply by Winston_Tn on 4/13/06 11:16am
Msg #113314

Re: Ummm....Charm Dearest

Shussssssh.... Come closer, I'll tell you a secret....








closer........











I just needed anon to open the door one last time so that I could get MY conclusion in... Don't tell anyone.

Reply by Anonymous on 4/14/06 9:03am
Msg #113570

It was really all about you.

Or at least, it became all about you and what you revealed of yourself.

Totally inane! You don't get out much...do you ?
land of the naive and stupid, of Anons
you DO know who Teddy R. was, or have heard of him....yes?
Wrong again nebulus anon
childish banter, leaving no room to develop mature debate
Maybe return when you become lucid...yes?
ego-centric anon
replying with ANY intelligent, educated thought
infantile displays of insecurity and nebulus unsubstantiated opinion
It was NEVER about ANON

and it became about Charm, when she chimed in at the end:

you are illiterate
anyone posting to you would be talking down to you...with the exception of remedial first graders
have nothing better to do
try to absorb this 'air' of knowledge
the tripe they spew
Anon from PA (haha) [ISP is in PA, Charm, not me - it's cheaper]
someone desperately needs attention and a life

You stooped to name calling, ridicule and sarcasm, and then you expect me to continue a "discussion" with you. The common ground I was looking for was that there would be no name calling, ridicule and sarcasm. It may be fun for you, and others, not for the rest of us. When we bow out, you consider that you have "won."

I did give you a sounding board for your opinions. You still haven't told us where you got your facts. All you did was bury us in words, numbers, and personal opinion. Here's another open door for more of the same, because I don't believe you can "discuss" any other way.

Reply by Winston_Tn on 4/17/06 8:49am
Msg #113949

Re: It was really all about you.

Simple words for a simple mind...

So first you state it was about you, and now you state it was about me. Still confused I see.

You spent countless time C/P'ing but never ever in a single post present anything worth debating that is 'on point'.

You state - "and then you expect me to continue a "discussion" with you." --- no I don't!! It has been obvious that you do not possess the capability to discuss, or the ability to comprehend, and very limited ability to articulate an opinion.

Now, since you took so much time to C/P, and NO TIME to EVER add any foundation to your 'scratch the surface' opinion, I must stand by your work, and my words ( although out of context);

--Totally inane! You don't get out much...do you ?
--land of the naive and stupid, of Anons
--you DO know who Teddy R. was, or have heard of him....yes?
--Wrong again nebulus anon
--childish banter, leaving no room to develop mature debate
--Maybe return when you become lucid...yes?
--ego-centric anon
--replying with ANY intelligent, educated thought
--infantile displays of insecurity and nebulus unsubstantiated opinion
--It was NEVER about ANON
--you are illiterate
--anyone posting to you would be talking down to you...with the exception of remedial first graders
--have nothing better to do
--try to absorb this 'air' of knowledge
--the tripe they spew
--Anon from PA
--someone desperately needs attention and a life

And....whereas I believe you left out some rather poignant phrases, I must add that you are an idiot, in the truest sense of the word, for never understanding the subject matter, the meaning of debate, and for continually demonstrating to this forum said fact.

As far as winning.... There is no winner in this issue, and it definitely has nothing to do with you or me. It was simply a chance to discuss and debate. You should have simply given up, realizing you had nothing to add. I hope that I have kept this simple enough for you to understand. I let this thread speak for itsself...

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/12/06 2:33pm
Msg #113103

Re: Playing....I see now - My dad was confused!!

When I was a little notary, my friends swam ever day at the pool when school let out.

But, my sister and I did not have that option...I now realize Daddy thought Sis and I were immigrant field workers! That explains a lot about how I spent time as a child in my father's home.

Dad and my grandfather ran a truck farm to supply stores and people fresh produce in the summer. Guess who was a top field hand--yep, yours truly.

No constant lettuce crop, but I did pull corn, pick tomatos, squash, okra (ouch!), peas, green beans, and I stooped over picking strawberries for long hours as needed. Strawberry harvesting is not too bad if you don't have to wear rubber boots and sink down into the mud six inches or so.

That's what we did in the broiling sun and/or mosquitos, beginning around 7:30 am. The fun part was when I got to drag a tow sack full of ears of corn up to the house. Or, really fun was toting bushels of peas or okra in. It was only about half a mile and it was a break in the monotony.

Sometimes I'd see a cottonmouth snake...or a rattler on the way up. That was exciting!

Thanks to this thread, so much more about my life makes sense now. My dad always called me "Pete" when I was little. I guess that he thought I was Pete, the migrant worker.

Reply by Bonnie_CO on 4/11/06 1:17pm
Msg #112704

Winston...

Very well said! I am Comanche and Irish by blood, part of my ancestors were always here and the other part were immigrants from Ireland that had to go through the process, AND had to learn english. They were proud to be american and to do what needed to be done to gain that status. What I've seen on TV reminds me of the "give me" attitude and the 'everybody owes me simply because I am' attitude. I say fine, load up them Grayhounds! All we owe them is a one way trip to Mexico, and actually, we don't even owe them that!

Reply by lulu on 4/11/06 2:23pm
Msg #112723

Re: Winston...

Here I go again with those thoughts on organization and combined efforts..............I think we should put the word around the net to all you can possibly contact, set a specific date and all send letters to our Congressman etc so that they are bombarded with opinions to toughen up on immigration issues. I'm sure in time there will be some less than nice clashing in these rallies that are going on but we can organize in other ways such as sending combined scheduled letters to our officials.

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 4/11/06 4:38pm
Msg #112784

Re: Winston...

It's a good thought. But what is more effective considering the timing? Maybe email as it is immediate. Or a phone call. I'm thinking of a date that we could either call or email.

When my daughter was in elementary school she would come home once a week and tell me there's a new student that doesn't speak any english. Then they would pair that child up with a bilingual student and the bilingual student would translate what the teacher said. I'm tired of the school books being out of date, teachers making diddly, overcrowded schools, etc. The amount of money being taken away from those who are citizens or legal immigrants is rediculous. Now a moment on the autism soapbox. The reality is that it does cost more to educate children with disabilities. There are plenty of children that would benefit from more therapies than they are getting (speech, occupationa therapy, adaptive PE, and many others) if funds were freed up by having to have proof of legal status for kids to go to school. With the rise in cases of autism alone we are going to come to a point in the very and I do mean very near future where multiple school systems will run completely dry. -off soapbox.

One last comment on education. There was a story on one of of the news magazine shows a couple of months ago about how a in San Diego community the school bus stops at a street right next to the border. At this particular stop the students cross the borders in large numbers every morning to get on the bus and go to school in the US. The family that was being profiled on the show are citizens who are struggling financially because they chose to put thier kids in private school due to the public school being over run by illegal aliens.

Lastly I think this amnesty/work permit idea is a slap in the face to all of those who went through the proper procedure to become legal residents and eventually citizens.