Posted by BrendaTx on 4/6/06 12:57pm
Msg #111578

Yes, another revisit to the fax back...

Due to feedback recently received, I think I may have been misunderstood.

Markets are different around the country. Those who want fax backs in Texas and do not want to help defray the time and costs involved are cheap, difficult assignments anyhow. I will pass on them. If I am paid for the faxing back when it is excessive than I will do it. If not, then I don't.


That means I am losing around $200 a month in cheap signing appointments. But, I gain $300 for having time and "go get 'em" to take a couple of $150 assignments because I am not booked and bogged down with bullsh__.

Like Angelina - when I stopped being so "flexible" and started charging like a professional, and setting the boundaries of a professional for those I work for, I began to be treated like one.

Consider your market and if you cannot charge more then you cannot. But, if you cannot charge what you should to profit...well, what's the point? There are other things to do besides sign if you are willing.

Also, one BIG problem is that both old-timers and new people have an employee mentality. We are not at their beck and call all day long. We bid a job, we do it well, we get a check. Normally, we are not bidding on clerical work and faxing back. Get real. They need to let me know what extras they need done before they sandbag me. Social engineering does not work on me more than once...after that, you are not someone I will work for.

I have been raising cane about this for a month now...guess what...I still get calls and work from GOOD signing services who are not looking for someone to sandbag. Not The good ss's still call me because they want quality work unlike those whose business I have lost by being straight up on this board that I am not going to be abused out of desperation.

Reply by Tina_MA on 4/6/06 2:10pm
Msg #111597

Brenda you are correct.

As I have said many times over the years, this is a business. Treat it as such. No other business allows themselves to be taken advantage of in this manner.

There are too many Signing Agents, who know nothing whatsoever about business practices, and who haven't a clue as how to run a *service based* business.

The end result is that these Signing Agents are killing this business with their illogical and inept business practices.

Reply by LilyMD on 4/6/06 2:47pm
Msg #111617

****Also, one BIG problem is that both old-timers and new people have an employee mentality. We are not at their beck and call all day long. We bid a job, we do it well, we get a check. Normally, we are not bidding on clerical work and faxing back. Get real. They need to let me know what extras they need done before they sandbag me. Social engineering does not work on me more than once...after that, you are not someone I will work for. ***

I totally agree with this point. I work for myself and that's the boss who gets to decide what I charge and that includes the dreaded faxbacks. I try to include my price for faxbacks in with my quote, but sometimes that's not easy to do. I have more than one SS that will only call when in emergency because they know that they'll either pay my faxback fee or excuse me from their faxback ritual.

Reply by BP/WV on 4/6/06 3:07pm
Msg #111624

I second that!

Brenda,

I have been toying with the idea of charging extra for fax backs for about 3 months now. I kept a little journal of the fax backs that were required. I made notations of who it was for, how many pages and the overall time it took to fax and resort the package. What I came up with was astonishing.

Within the month of March, I had 14 packages that required fax backs above 30 pages. The calculated average time to fax and resort came to 32 minutes. This time totaled over 7 ˝ hours of uncompensated time for the month of March

I used this method to determine the time it also took to split and copy packages.

My total time spent on faxing, splitting and resorting docs in March came to 10 hours and 45 minutes.

On April 1st I began asking, “Will there be any fax backs required?”. I inform them that I now charge for fax backs and tell them my rate. So far, I have had several tell me that no fax backs are required but when the package arrives…viola…in very large print on the second page: THE FOLLOWING LIST OF CRITICAL DOCS MUST BE FAXED BACK OR YOUR FEE WILL BE REDUCED…So, I call them back and remind them that I charge for this service and what my fee is.- No problem so far.

One attorney told me that Joe Schmoe down the street doesn’t charge a dime for fax backs.

The way I see it is: So what if Joe Schmoe down the street faxes for free? Let Joe Schmoe burn up his business equipment and waste time. I now refuse to provide this service at no cost. I charge because my time is valuable to me. I run a business, not a charity. Besides that, try taking a stack load of documents to Kinkos and see if you can fax for free.

I too will now pass on the individuals who refuse to pay for fax backs.

Have a good one!.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/6/06 4:03pm
Msg #111640

Re: I second that!

Thanks for doing an analysis on this. I react with my gut sometimes and I should not. You have used your head.

I experienced the same "sandbagging" in way of having the surprise fax back crap in the package when I printed it or rec'd it. I decided to stop the insane jumping through hoops here in tx. We all have to do what we have to do. I believe it lowers the notary down one more step on the ladder (as if there were another one) to have faxing shoved at you without consideration or allowing the CHOICE of accepting or rejecting the job. (This is what I mean by social engineering. We COULD reject it at that point, but then "Oh no...the bwr might lose his rate!!" So, we just eat it and go on.

I have tried for a long time not to get this "attitude" that I have developed...I am a people pleaser...but you can please all the day long in our business and you will get called back ONLY if there is no one cheaper in the database. Readers need to get the point here, we are businesses, we are not min. wage employees.

You are SO accurate on the equipment - I have an HP 3015...and a high speed power copier/printer from Canon. When I started there was no faxing back except tracking. I did not buy a fax that would fax out 150 - 200 pages a day. Readers should note that the equipment does wear out. Boom - time to purchase another.

It has gone from 2 to 4 to 12 to 52 pages of documents in some packages. If I am getting $150 - I will fax back 52 pages. If not, I will not .

About Joe Schmoe, here is my response to that, "Hens do not dip snuff so stop lifting up my skirt while you tell me that."

It is fish or cut bait time now.

If I make money, I do. If I don't, I'll what? ... I know! ...

Lawrence OK, plus Lee/AR and yours truly will start "Rural Signing Service." Every time someone wants a fee to travel - "oh but no!!" We will tell them, "when we were little signing agents we walked five miles in the snow with bare bloody feet , and we never complained. Lawrence lost a toe, I lost two and Lee cut off her whole foot after the gangrene set in! She saw an ax against a barn and knew she had to do it. She sliced that baby off and threw it in for the farmer's pigs. Then Lee hopped and hobbled to her signing appointment. AND, we liked it like that!!!"

Yes, and the response will be "but I bet you didn't have all those fax backs, now didya?"

Reply by Trenton Hall on 4/6/06 4:48pm
Msg #111651

Re: I second that!

Wait a minute, wait a minute, I was with you Brenda till you got to the "...hens not dipping snuff" part. Could you explain to this x-city boy, just what is meant by that saying.?

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/6/06 5:30pm
Msg #111665

Re: I second that!

Surely - it is one nice way to say "do not blow smoke up my you-know-where." As you know, a rooster will dip every now and then - never a hen.

Hens do not dip snuff any more than **all signing agents do piggy backs for $13!**

If it sounds like a smoke screen, it probably is. Then, there's the word "fog" meaning that people will try to get you to do things by

Fear (Everyone else does-you will starve and freeze in the dark if you don't.)

Obligation (you are the only one available...please drive 58 miles one way/edocs - $66+10, okay)

Guilt (If you don't send back three acks the bwrs might lose their lock.)

Reply by BatmanWA on 4/6/06 5:00pm
Msg #111654

Re: I second that!..Brenda

Attiude is not an acceptable form of conduct in providing a professional service. You're simply making changes to policy and SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) for your BUSINESS.

You've got that right, I am a sole proprietor (a business) working for profit. If a company want to contract (not employ) me for a service then by all means, my quoted fee does not include fax back hidden in the instructions or not disclosed at time of contract.

Anyone who has been in business long enough to know only the "cheapos" require fax back (belabored our time) because they are sitting in a hot seat with fear of loosing their customers. TC/Lenders on the other hand required fax back because of bad past experience with the clueless SA who may have work for peanuts. Bottom line is you/I/TC/Lender/SS will have to pay a price our not making sound business decisions.

I've said this long before and again. Being in business is like being at war, you've got to know your battle and your enemies. It's a mean mean world out there.

Reply by BatmanWA on 4/6/06 5:03pm
Msg #111656

Oops.."pay the price FOR..." not our... n/m

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/6/06 5:07pm
Msg #111658

Re: I second that!..Brenda

*Attiude is not an acceptable form of conduct in providing a professional service.*

Batman means that in the very best possible way.

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 4/6/06 7:22pm
Msg #111683

Brenda-Slight thread hijack/good news

My hubbys work finally made it through the red tape. We should be flying out in a couple of weeks to go house hunting.

Reply by MonicaFL on 4/6/06 4:25pm
Msg #111644

Re: I second that!

I have been chargin for faxbacks for almost a year now. And, when a company tells me there are no faxbacks and then I get instructions from a title company telling ME I have to fax back certain items I call the signing service, inform them of the title company's request and tell them what my fee is and if they want me to do the closing I need a NEW confirmation with the faxing charge included. haven't had too many people balk at it - some but not very many and haven't lost any business because of it. Just thought I would share with you what I do.

Reply by BP/WV on 4/6/06 8:17pm
Msg #111692

I do remember when fax backs were not required.

You just sign and drop....boy, those were the days

About a year and a half ago I started getting request for just a few docs to be faxed. Almost at the end of last year, I started seeing more requests for 30 plus docs...Now, some requests are in the 50's.

Give'em an inch...they'll take a mile.

I stand my ground on this issue and I wish more would as well. Before you know it, the entire loan package will be fax requirement.

Will I do it then? Sure I would...If I'm paid for it.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/6/06 8:57pm
Msg #111706

Re: I second that!

Thank you Monica. I promise not to bring this back up for at least half a day.

Reply by Dorothy_MI on 4/6/06 5:24pm
Msg #111663

Our time and knowledge

is what they pay us for just like the attorney who didn't want to pay you for that. You know very well that he keeps a log and everytime a client calls him on the phone, he logs it and bills them for his consultation.