Posted by SLB SIGNING SERVICES, INC. - Sherry on 8/7/06 11:56am
Msg #137461

Closing fee listed on the HUD and what a SS REALLY gets

Hi all...We did a little experiment recently and I wanted to share. There has been some discussion in the past about SS's collecting $xxx and only paying the signing agent $xx. We decided to have our agents when submitting their closing completions, tell us what the fee for the closing was on the HUD so we could see what our clients were charging versus what we were actually getting paid. HOW INTERESTING THIS WAS...90% of the time, our clients were charging anywhere between $200-$400 for the closing and we were only collecting $150...the other 10% of our clients actually charged the $150 and paid us $150. So where that extra $50-$250 goes, its anyones guess...but this proves the point that just because it states it on the HUD, it doesnt mean that that is what the SS is getting paid.

I just thought this would be neat and enlightening to share.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 8/7/06 12:15pm
Msg #137463

Thank you! n/m

Reply by PA_Notary_II on 8/7/06 12:48pm
Msg #137466

Sherry...FYI the one we just closed for you (through TSS) had a closing fee of $325 PLUS a
"disbursement coordination fee" of $160 PLUS a "release fee verification"? of $85.
Must be one of those Fee Fi Fo Fum whatever fee we can get companies.

Reply by SLB SIGNING SERVICES, INC. - Sherry on 8/7/06 1:25pm
Msg #137471

Gotta love it....the sad thing is, if I attempted to raise my fees based on this information that I obtained, they would find another SS that would charge the $150 that I am now...

Reply by ewing2surf on 8/7/06 1:52pm
Msg #137481

Your point?

I estimate that over the last 8 years collectively the various signing services I have taken assignments from have made over a quarter of a million dollars from Notary fees on loans that I notarized.

Reply by LkArrowhd/CA on 8/7/06 1:53pm
Msg #137483

Re: Thanks Joe........ n/m

Reply by SLB SIGNING SERVICES, INC. - Sherry on 8/7/06 1:59pm
Msg #137486

Stop complaining Joe.....

and quit taking work from SS's if you are upset with getting a job that you never would have had had it not been for said SS....If you dont like working for SS than dont. That has nothing to do with my reasoning for posting.

My point was to post some interesting information for those who care.

Reply by CaliNotary on 8/7/06 2:14pm
Msg #137493

Her point seemed pretty clear to me

That what we see on the HUD isn't necessarily always the full story. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 8/7/06 4:23pm
Msg #137518

Also true in my case. However, I have made a lot more.......

than that.
If they are not making money, then they are not
going to be around for me to make money.
In all due respect, Joe, that is the idea.
So long as I am making, what I deem to be, a far profit, I
am not going to begrudge a fair profit to my customers.
Do you know whose business is EZ? Everyone elses'.
A whole bunch of bwrs have asked me. "All you do is drive arond to
peoples' houses and they pay you for that? How can I get
into that racket?
I have been involved in all aspects of this business.
Believe me, the SSs and TCs have more than their share of probelms also.
I am only referring to the good ones, the bad ones, for the most part,
create their own problems.

Reply by ewing2surf on 8/7/06 5:11pm
Msg #137525

Yeah Bob I have worked for over 100 signing companies

They score when I agree to carry their clients paper.

It's no secret that signing Agencies low bid one another to get contracts. Some bid as low a $100 a loan flat fee. That is what they get no matter what the HUD says. They also disappear and you never get paid. How many unpaid SS invoices are you still holding on to? And each week I still agree on a fee split with a dozen a of my favorite Signing service clients. It's no secret that SS owners think of us a cattle and even the nice ones like Sherry show their true colors when one of the cows dare to agree.

Reply by SLB SIGNING SERVICES, INC. - Sherry on 8/7/06 5:26pm
Msg #137528

Re: Yeah Bob I have worked for over 100 signing companies

Joe...this post was not intended to start a bash the Signing Service thread...I was simply posting with some interesting information that some posters may like to see. You took a thread that was explicitly meant to inform and made a mockery of SS's. Although I dont lump myself in with all SS's, yes I do take offense when someone decides to bash SS's in a thread that was only meant to inform.

And you are wrong...not all SS's "low bid" one another - I for one dont change my prices for anyone..in fact should a notary require a larger fee, I have no problem passing that along to my clients. And mind you, most of our business is from referrals (from our clients and notaries). Secondly, all of my checks have been cut up through 8/2/06 and will be in the mail tomorrow. And last but not least, I am confident that every notary that we contract with will tell you that we DONT treat them like cattle....we understand that they are just important to us as our clients are and we let them know that quite frequently.

So in a nutshell...yes my true colors come out when you lump me in with everyone else so when you decide to spew off next time about how horrible SS's are, please dont include me in your spewing.

Reply by BrendaTx on 8/7/06 7:14pm
Msg #137539

Re: Yeah Bob I have worked for over 100 signing companies

**And you are wrong...not all SS's "low bid" one another **

I hope you are right Sherry.

Because there are plenty out there doing exactly that. It sickens me as this is exactly what brought to the forefront and advertised to the title companies that if a signing service will accept $100 - $125 for a signing that means a notary takes less, probably 1/2 that.

Hence, some title companies went sour and started playing the game also with in-house signing services. They now populate our field and offer $50 for signings. And, if you won't agree to it, well...you're just scoffed at and ridiculed because "someone else will take it." Whatever.

I drive across town, do my notarial duty with a doctor's office and make that all happen in a total of 30 stress free minutes. Sometimes it costs me $.39 and an envelope to drop the papers back into the mail. (If an appointment is required with the doc's office, I always charge at least $50 because it requires "real estate" on my schedule where nothing else can be booked. This as opposed to a rate of $35-$45 drop by when it's convenient.)

With new ss's each day cropping up, what *will* the good signing services do to keep their footing in a bloated market with $100 signing services on every corner? How can you compete with that?

Reply by SLB SIGNING SERVICES, INC. - Sherry on 8/7/06 7:36pm
Msg #137546

Re: Yeah Bob I have worked for over 100 signing companies

It is insane to think about Brenda...I think the SA and the SS are in the same boat...low balling SS's and SA's dont do anything for the longstanding veterans. My only hope is that I have built solid relationships with a lot of my clients and they know our reputation. Hopefully that will prevent them from choosing the $100 SS over us. Its working so far...I guess time will only tell...

Reply by CaliNotary on 8/7/06 6:39pm
Msg #137533

Re: Yeah Bob I have worked for over 100 signing companies

And of course this is coming from the guy who teaches the classes that are flooding the CA market with new notaries who are all competing for the same business. And of course we all know the basic economic principles of supply and demand. A larger supply of a commodity (signing agents) combined with a lower demand for that commodity (the slowing of the real estate market) equals what? That's right, a lower price for the commodity.

So get the hell off of your high horse Joe, you're directly contributing to the lowballing that we're seeing more and more of in this industry.

That's just part of dealing with a free market economy; you're entitled to make money off of training notaries, and the title companies and signing services are entitled to adjust their fees to be more competitive in the market that you're partially responsible for creating. And all of us are free to accept these fees or free to tell them where to stick it.

Reply by ewing2surf on 8/7/06 6:59pm
Msg #137535

Re: Yeah Bob I have worked for over 100 signing companies

Did you even read my last post Brian?

Reply by Brescia Mobile Notary on 8/7/06 2:38pm
Msg #137501

HI Sherry :) ...

Thanks for sharing that information, I was wondering why you had that there

an FYI for you, your not the first to request that information, however you were the first to
disclose why you wanted it and I personally appreciate that! when you keep me (the notary)
in the loop you make me happy to work for signing services. I feel very much like a team and not
a used asset.

any..who... thanks! for sharing'

M.A. Brescia

Reply by NICOLE WELCH on 8/7/06 4:19pm
Msg #137516

Sherry is correct..

I hate having a story of a friend of a friend who who works for.. story, but here goes.

I have an associate who currently works with me at my full time job, she states that the notary fee listed on the hud is not neccesarily what is being paid out. I know this is outrageous, but she alluded that this is a common practice in the title /escrow business to cover incidentals. She also states that what is not paid out at settlement is kept in a reserve. The reserves are for the borrowers missed collections, judgments, garbage liens/fees, etc and if there is anything left, the money is given back to the "B" in a check on placed on their impound account if one was requested.

I did work out a deal to be listed directly on the hud for one of my lenders. It is a small operation and they only close about 6 locals a month. (thank goodness they have other business ventures, because I can't believe that they are still in operation) When you are listed directly with an actual name, the amount placed there is the amount that is sent out.

Look at some of the Title/SS if you check the notary line, you will see their company name listed. This is true for Servicelink, NCS, and other companies. I think their situation is different from operations like Sherry's. These companies are becoming a trend, where they do the title, escrow and then kick the loan over to their inhouse SS to close the loan.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 8/8/06 4:33am
Msg #137577

Re: HUD fees - a little insight on deciphering

The Closing/Settlement fee on the HUD encompasses more services than what WE think of as the "closing" - it is the primary place for the settlement agent's processing, beginning to end. Some settlement agents lump everthing onto that line and others part it out, but regardless - it isn't just the fee to "close" under the SA/SS definition of the term. Title/Settlement agents perform a lot of duties, have a lot of processes and time investments on every file. The policy premium is parted out on a separate line because that is paid to the policy underwriter.

When a file is signed by a SA and/or thru a SS - that adds to the total that needs to be collected, obviously. It might be added into the "Closing" fee, might be listed separately and defined as something WE can decipher - or not. There are certain fees they have the discretion to charge for (such as release fees) and certain fees some lenders won't allow on the HUDS.

Additionally - as they're working up their HUDS, and sending to the lender for approval, and TRYING to have things listed appropriately enough as well as having the TOTAL they're collecting equal the amount they need - they're having to dance around the specific HUD lines/definitions with respect to the APR. Some fees are IN the APR, some fees are NOT, and that matters.

The "Notary Fee" is NOT in the APR. That makes it a very popular/convenient line choice to use, when the APR becomes an issue. The APR is one of the triggers on a "Section 32/High Cost Loan" calculation. If the APR hits the limit of that trigger, sometimes it can be solved by padding a non-APR fee (such as Notary Fee or Atty Fee) and lowering an APR fee (Closing Fee).

The gist of this is to illustrate that you can't go by the line descriptions, and that sometimes it's a semantics game, and that a lot of people do a lot of things to earn their income that we are not all aware of.

Now - that all said, what really fries MY cookies is seeing a 'fair' set of fees listed, and an ADDITIONAL $300 for "mobile closing fee", when it's a direct hire. I wish!!

Reply by LkArrowhd/CA on 8/8/06 9:50am
Msg #137585

Re: Renee well defined and valued information.....Thanks n/m