Posted by Art Castaneda on 8/12/06 6:12pm
Msg #138455

Illegal Aliens revisited

I posted a message on Friday morning in regards to a transaction I did a signing on a couple weeks ago. I received alot of good feedback, some rude and crude, some inquisitive. Here is the basic situation in more detail, according to some replies, they wanted to know more information. I had a loan signing in which both husband and wife were on the loan. The husband had a valid drivers license and there was no issue with him. The wife was a stay at home mom with basically no id. She had some identification card from Mexico, but it was not on the approved list. I used the credible witness approach. The loan application didn't have the wife on the loan, but none of the pages she had to sign said anything about citizenship.

The loan got rejected because she was an illegal alien. I don't know how they found out, but I explained to the signing company that I don't feel I did anything wrong. They said that as soon as she didn't have a valid id I should have stopped the signing or inquired more about her citizenship. I haven't seen anything in the handbook in regards to this situation. I don't think that the signing company will use me again because she was upset with me. I'm don't think I did anything wrong here, and I am hoping that this is a little more clear than my first posting. I also will be a lot more careful going forward, and although some of the replies to my 1st post were very pointed, I know I didn't explain myself well in my posting. I really like the business and I know that each signing I do makes me a little smarter. If anybody, can shed some light, I'd be grateful. And if some of the feedback is rude and crude, at least maybe there will be some good information I can take with me.

Reply by Pamela on 8/12/06 7:21pm
Msg #138470

Art, Re: Illegal Aliens revisited

Art,

I'm new in the business (started loan signings this year).
However, I am also a licensed real estate agent.
I do know that there are many lenders who have special
programs for undocumented persons and will happily
approve these type of loans.

At my open houses, many of the people could
not speak english. However, getting a loan approval
(not pre-qualification) wasn't a problem.

I also know Realtors who market especially to these
people.

As a notary (or sales agent), it is not my responsibility
to determine citizenship. Perhaps this particular
lender did not accept undocumented persons.
Nevertheless, this is not your fault.
The signing company is wrong!

Pam

Please review this article:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m5072/is_3_28/ai_n16058693

Reply by Pamela on 8/12/06 7:32pm
Msg #138473

Gary, And. . .

The loan officer is the one who is responsible for
knowing his or her people and the best and type
of loan for them. The bucks stops there!

Pam

Reply by Pamela on 8/12/06 7:33pm
Msg #138475

Art not Gary! n/m

Reply by Signing_Doc on 8/12/06 7:38pm
Msg #138478

As in "Our Father...who is ART in Heaven" (groan) n/m

Reply by patricia on 8/12/06 7:39pm
Msg #138479

I can't think of any reason why the notary should be responsible for determining whether or not someone is in this country legally. It is not our job to question anyone about their citizenship.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 8/12/06 7:58pm
Msg #138491

It isn't our job to determine if someone is in this country illegally.

Reply by Life Saving Services - Doug on 8/12/06 8:30pm
Msg #138496

Yup, Sounds like another lender that would like the notary to look the other way and just notarize the person anyway. But remember it would then be your license on the line and your E&O and possibly your assets at risk. Be thankful you know this about them now and place them on your bad list. You can build your business with companies that want to do the right thing only.

Reply by CaliNotary on 8/12/06 10:35pm
Msg #138513

Why would his commission and assets be on the line? There's no law that says we can only notarize US citizens.

Reply by SharonMN on 8/13/06 8:31am
Msg #138533

It appears from your description that the wife was not even on the loan, just signing the spousal docs. I'm no loan officer, but it seems like since I'm a U.S. citizen, I should be able to take out a loan on my property even if I'm married to a Martian! Interesting. I agree the notary did nothing wrong - just ID'ed both people according to state notary law and had them sign.

Reply by AngelinaAZ on 8/12/06 11:13pm
Msg #138515

To Art...

Although it is not our job to determine citizenship... it is our job AS A SIGNING AGENT (the other hat we wear) to identify a signer to the satisfaction of the lender. Hence the Patriot Act form we fill out with two forms of ID and the copies of ID that we so often obtain. It is the Lender's perrogative to accept CW identification or not.

I have this problem alot as I am near the border and I ALWAYS double check with the people that booked me to find out if Credible Witness ID will be OK. Lenders are picky... and some will not accept CW identification at all. (Not all, but some). I hate to break it to ya, but this one comes with experience.

When I make a confirmation call I always make sure they have valid ID and ask them to have a copy made prior to the appointment. At this point, many ID issues come to light and can be alleviated. A little phone call can solve a lot. Some would disagree and argue that wasting time on phone calls is too much babysitting but ESPECIALLY for a signing service it is better to know of problems ahead of time to ensure that you get paid. It takes two seconds and it has saved me time and money.

JMHO

Reply by AngelinaAZ on 8/12/06 11:34pm
Msg #138518

But...

If you were OK'd by Lender, TC or SS to do CW identification for the wife and they are now just yapping about the illegal alien part then it's all on them. It has nothing to do with you.

Sorry if my answer was confusing.

Reply by janCA on 8/13/06 12:18am
Msg #138523

Re: To Art...

And depending on when this signing took place and if the lender and/or LO was available I think Art did the right thing. If the lender didn't approve the CW approach, the loan wouldn't go through anyway. In my experience it's always been the lender/TC to suggest the CW alternative. And also, when you have the Customer Identification Verfication Form, (not all loan packages have this form) the lender usually does not require the copies of the ID's, although this form does state that one of the ID documents has to be governement-issued with a photograph.

Reply by BrendaTx on 8/13/06 3:59am
Msg #138526

Art, I seldom run into this problem. Illegals have the right to have a signature notarized. I don't think you did anything wrong and read this as a way to get around paying you.

In reviewing the thread beginning with Msg #137990, I am still trying to figure out who was rude or crude. I think you got very good information on that thread. The closest thing to rude you were told was to study your notary rules. If the point was belabored in your opinion, understand how much better it is to have this concept reinforced by your peers rather under than the state bar association's review so that all California notaries get loan signings jerked out from underneath them as a way to earn.

When we post something on a public forum, we are not posting information which only the most diplomatic and kindly spoken will be responding to. Some folks may come off gruff out of frustration by the fact that some of the notary classes given are guaranteeing results of passing a test for a very good reason. They are basically supplying answers to the test questions at the end of the class by giving a ten minute review of what is going to be on the test and the notaries do not learn squat.

It's so disappointing, unethical and it's cranking out notaries who are in this business for the dollar and have completely lost sight of the purpose of the notary.

Some post what they do out of writing style. Whatever the case, the fact remains that we all must have a thicker skin in business than to consider a redirect to one's notary manual to be rude and crude. JMHO, Art.

Reply by AngelinaAZ on 8/13/06 5:12am
Msg #138527

I agree that illegals have the right to have a signature notarized but I still believe that the Lender has the right to demand stricter forms of identification for the Loan Package. I have seen it specified (the acceptable forms of ID) many times in the closing instructions and have had Lenders refuse to accept CW's even when it was a last resort.

Maybe I read too much or too little into his question but it surprises me that nobody feels that an SA has any greater responsibility in this.

For me, it doesn't have anything to do with the illegal status, it has to do with the need to use CW's. When I have to use them, I always call and get the OK, that way, if there is a problem later... my i's are dotted and my t's are crossed. But, maybe nobody else works for picky lenders...

Reply by BrendaTx on 8/13/06 7:28am
Msg #138529

Re: Illegal Aliens revisited - Angelina

I am basing my comments on his legal status comments.

Art said: **The loan got rejected because she was an illegal alien. I don't know how they found out, but I explained to the signing company that I don't feel I did anything wrong. They said that as soon as she didn't have a valid id I should have stopped the signing or inquired more about her citizenship. **

Angelina - The lenders I work for have decided on the loan being approved or rejected before I get there. If they want a copy of the ID, I get it. If they don't want credible witnesses, then they need to say so to me before I get there because as a Tx Notary, I am going to use a witness (not two, one) if I need to.

It would seem bordering on discriminatory for me to inquire about citizenship.

Lender's requirements may be different than the notary's requirements, of course. Haven't seen him mentioned there was a requirement before the signing.

Now, the reason I say this sounds like an excuse is because they are using "illegal alien" as the excuse. A notary doesn't not need to know that. All the notary needs to know is the issue with the ID will keep them from being paid.

I draw this conclusion because businesses with a "clue" don't speak in terms like that unless they are trying to baffle the notary with BS. The probably probably was they were supposed to put instructions that he MUST collect copies of the ID at closing and they didn't...or that this lender requires two forms of ID, etc. Only a goober company would say the loan did not fund because the notary did not inquire into citizenship status. Big red flag to me that they are BS artists, albeit not very good ones.

Reply by AngelinaAZ on 8/13/06 11:19am
Msg #138560

Re: Illegal Aliens revisited - Angelina

I agree with you on all points about the illegal status it's ridiculous to think that we have any responsibility in this area.

Maybe nobody else has had problems with picky lenders about CW's but I have. Just as I would ALWAYS make a Lender/TC/or SS aware of someone signing with a POA, I also make them aware of when CW's are used.

Maybe it is just my personal experiences that has made me leary in this area. I'm just trying to help him head off a problem.

Reply by Raimond on 8/13/06 10:51am
Msg #138554

I have seen many illegals with a valid drivers license.

So, if we go to a signing and the signer has a valid DL do we have to ask about legal status? No.
As a notary we are held to the state standards... Gov issued ID.

In this case, we get the loan signed, notarized and complete the PA according to the requirements. After the package gets returned to escrow, they discover the BO/ Co-BO/ Spouse is not legal. Are they going to blame the SA? We did our part according to the law.

I work for a government agency and look the other way every day when someone tells us they are an un-documented alien. We can be fired for turning them into the INS....

Reply by thnotary_NY on 8/13/06 11:56am
Msg #138565

I would think that this type of inquiry would be made at the very begining of the loan app..

Reply by BrendaTx on 8/13/06 4:57pm
Msg #138585

Re: Illegal Aliens revisited...that's all *I'm* sayin' n/m

Reply by Gary_CA on 8/14/06 1:59am
Msg #138603

Re: Illegal Aliens and CA notary law

Now that Pamela called me out, I guess I gotta respond.

First off, I lived in Mexico 8 years...5 of those as an illegal alien, and all of them living with the families of some of the good folks who come here to work their butt off and chase their dream. Boy I don't want to stir the pot about the immigration situation in general (probably too late) but I will say that the situation we have now isn't working and putting 11 million people on 250,000 buses isn't a solution --that's a complex mess that will never be solved by idiots that can't see past the next election --from either party. (Okay, so I guess I did want to stir the pot.)

Good bad or indifferent, illegal aliens have been denied CA drivers' licenses.
A Mexican passport is valid ID ONLY when stamped by US INS
A Mexican "Matricula" (an ID card issued to Mexican nationals by their consulates here in the US) is specifically left off the list of valid ID's.

This is not to say they don't have a right to a notarization... but our notary laws do make it pretty tough to ID them. The notary laws would seem to put purposeful road blocks.

On the citizenship issue... you're right, not our job to prove or disprove that. However, from practical experience, any time someone hands you a Matricula Consular, their residency status isn't much of a mystery. It's not proof positive they don't have legal status, but it's a 95% good hint.

I know of at least one case in Real Estate where the file was sent back because of a bad ID... I think by the lender before it got to sign off, but I could be wrong.

P.S. Whoever put the wife on the loan in the first place was a bozo.

Reply by Joan Bergstrom on 8/14/06 11:08pm
Msg #138703

Re: Illegal Aliens and CA notary law

You can use a Mexican Drivers license (Calif) if the license was issued by an agency in Mexico authorized to issue drivers licenses.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 8/15/06 12:07am
Msg #138708

Re: Illegal Aliens and CA notary law - Gary

***Boy I don't want to stir the pot about the immigration situation in general (probably too late)***

Uh, yes. Way too late.

***You can use a Mexican Drivers license (Calif) if the license was issued by an agency in Mexico authorized to issue drivers licenses.***

Joan is quite correct about Mexican Drivers license, in regard to your statement about valid Mexican ID. That in and of itself grants Mexican's "a right" to notarization. If they don't have the legal requirements for CA notaries.....then they don't have "the right". The State of CA has been MORE than accomodating.

***but our notary laws do make it pretty tough to ID them. The notary laws would seem to put purposeful roadblocks***

What? Did you not read the handbook about a CA notary using a Mexican ID? It seems to me that California bends over backward to accomodate Mexicans...right up to giving them free healthcare....no - won't go into all the gory details about that.

We as notaries aren't given the responsiblity of proving citizenship...yet. But the schools do...I think it's only a matter of time.

And...Gary? Pamela hasn't exactly earned the notary of the year award - nor have I. If someone "calls you out" I suggest you grab the handbook and your common sense. You'll be able to answer the Pamela's of the world quite well.