Posted by Larry/Ca on 12/2/06 6:52pm
Msg #163528
A rant and rave and a question.
Why O why would the State of California write notary laws on the topic of identification and fail to address acceptible NAME and SIGNATURE issues. I've had a long standing practice of using credible witnesses to complete signings when the ID of the borrower was unacceptible because of the printed name on the ID. I now realize that it was an inappropriate use of credible witnesses and will no longer use them.
My gripe here is first, after 5 calls to the SOS and getting different answers to the same question, all of which came from supervisors, one a senior supervisor, I'm left to consult with an attorney to answer a simple notary question. Second, why will the SOS not accept e-mails so I could have a written record of their ridiculous answers.
The widespread acceptance of a signers name with less than is printed on the identification used to indentify them is not grounded in notary law. This practice may seem obviously correct as many people do not have their FULL legal name on their ID nor do they normally sign using their FULL legal name. The SOS will accept less than your full legal name as both your official notary name and signature.
There is no deductively valid reasoning that would allow you to conclude that John is the same as Johnny. Simply speaking a name consists of sequential letters and any name that contains more, less or different letters is simply not the same name, a nickname an abbreviation perhaps but not the same name. It would seem, since our only job as notaries is to identify signers and witness their signatures, that ID names and signatures would be core elements of notary law. It seems to me that any permitted use of nicknames or abbreviated names for ones legal name should be covered by law.
My question, are their any other states in which these issues are cover by their notay laws?
Thanks all Larry
| Reply by SueW/Tn on 12/2/06 7:19pm
Msg #163535
Evening Larry
I have been reading your posts and each one brings one thought to my mind instantly "where's Cali on this issue"? I say that because the topic of CW's in California usually brings him out with both guns smoking. He's got rock solid information on this topic and I suggest you do a search on his posts.
| Reply by BarbaraL_CA on 12/2/06 7:49pm
Msg #163550
Re: send emails to sos...
"...why will the SOS not accept e-mails so I could have a written record of their ridiculous answers."
They DO, I send emails every so often and get replys.
You can email them at [e-mail address]
| Reply by Larry/Ca on 12/2/06 8:00pm
Msg #163552
Thanks Barbara I could't find that...
e-mail anywhere on their site and when I asked them on the phone for an e-mail address for questions I was told they didn't have one. The only e-mail I could find on the site was for the webmaster.
Larry
| Reply by BarbaraL_CA on 12/3/06 1:00am
Msg #163580
Re: FYI - finding SOS email....
When you are logged into NotRot you can click the blue "Home" tab and at the bottom is the address, phone number, and email for your state's SOS 
| Reply by BrendaTx on 12/2/06 8:53pm
Msg #163559
Larry, in Texas we ID the signer.
We are not required to specifically "match" anything . We can use ONE witness...don't need two. Our rules say to take the ID info down...it does not mention refusing notarizations. In fact...I feel our rules say exactly what they should:
"The primary duty of a Notary Public is to show that a disinterested party (the Notary Public) has duly notified the signer of an instrument as to the importance of such document, and
-->the *signer* of such document has declared that the signer's identity, signature, and reasons for signing such instrument are genuine.<--
The signature and seal of a Notary Public do not prove these facts conclusively, but provide prima facie proof of them, and allow persons in trade and commerce to rely upon the truth and veracity of the Notary Public as a third party who has no personal interest in the transaction."
Our lawmakers told the NNA, "No. We do not need you to educate us." Thank goodness.
Tx notaries often truly do not understand that they are not ID Nazis who need to make a match to vesting of title as it is...omg...if the NNA would have become the primary educator of notaries in Texas it would be fear of fraud to the nth degree...IMHO they sell this "FRAUD IS OUT TO GET YOU" idea so that we call them and feel like we need their authority and ID fraud tinker toys to determine a real ID from a fake...IT'S SELLING WITH FEAR!!!!
The notaries who get in trouble for this fraud kind of thing are crooks along with the signers!!!! In Texas, we are notarizing signatures and getting ID down in our journals. The signer declares (truthfully we hope) that they are the right person....not US....however, we do record their information...If I had a blatant fraud attempt, I'd report it as a crime. Period...end of story. If it isn't fraud then I notarize.
I know this one guy who has yet to be able to understand that his stringent notary rules come from the NNA's playbook...NOT Texas law. It's almost like it is INGRAINED into notaries with our first brush up against their handbook...reading the boards...etc...but when you look at the handbooks in Tx, ours is nothing like the stage they have set for the Chicken Little Syndrome and FRAUD, FRAUD, FRAUD to take us over.
It's crazy-making...and often makes me feel like somewhere we have grasped a little more authority than we actually have by insisting that the title vesting name must be the same as a driver's license or passport name. Apples and oranges.
If you take down all the info in the journal and make a reasonable decision, your part is done.
| Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 12/3/06 6:48am
Msg #163589
Gee...
...when you come out of the closet...you come out of the closet! I'm glad you preface your remarks with the fact you're referencing this whole ID issue from a Texas perspective & I'm doing likewise from the Missouri side. I totally agree with your statement we need to make a "reasonable decision" (i.e. use common sense). However I disagree with your labeling of a Notary who chooses to ensure the signer's ID matches exactly with the document being notarized as an "ID Nazi". One of the primary reasons the office of Notary Public exists is to deter fraud & it starts with the ID process. No, a Notary cannot "guarantee" that the person standing in front of them is who they say they are by reviewing ID & having them acknowledge who they are. But you can take "reasonable" measures & I fully believe one of them is matching names on ID with the documents presented. If you feel it's reasonable to extrapolate, lengthen, or shorten a name to fit the situation you're presented with & Texas law allows that freedom...I say go for it. But by the same token if someone else chooses to set their bar a little higher (& if it happens to agree with the NNA so be it) they shouldn't be criticized. If Texas law allows you to be less stringent than someone else, it also means the other Notary has the latitude to be stricter than you. Neither one of you will be "standing in" for the other in a court appearance when you're presenting the signer's ID evidence you collected. That's the "fear" I take into account when I'm identifying a perfect stranger & not what the NNA has instilled in me.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 12/3/06 1:47pm
Msg #163624
Re: Gee...
Dennis, I really do appreciate your comments and your debate. It's good thinking stuff.
**One of the primary reasons the office of Notary Public exists is to deter fraud & it starts with the ID process. **
Deterring fraud is not mentioned in my handbook or yours, nor Florida's, as far as I could see. I have not looked at Ca's...I am not splitting hairs...just raising awareness. We are not stated to be a line of defense of fraud such that I could find. I see that in the NNA newsletters though.
The Patriot Act does not require us to match ID to vested name...only to collect the information and get it back with the package.
And, to the credit of Texas, the handbook for us (tx) requires both the land transaction participants info and the signer's ID info. That indicates to me that Texas is clear that these two will not always match. Texas, I said!
People need to read their handbook, refer to their handbook and not do more than stated while being a notary public. We personally set our bars on ID, but while we do so, I feel we really do need to remember we are public servants and not public accusers of citizens who have the "wrong" info on ID or a "badly" vested title name. Is it that person or not? If yes, then do it.
Here's where I am on this situation with fraud.
Fraud is a crime and if I know it may be happening as a citizen I need to report it. If I don't do a package it is because I suspect fraud. I am going to report it until I get satisfaction that it is looked into.
If I do a package, it is because I have satisfactory evidence by my state's laws (not the NNA's) that the person is who they are supposed to be...it's not my job to determine that vesting on title is identical to the ID presented. My described fellow Texan is an ID Nazi. He neither cares where the vesting came from, nor cares what the reality of the law is...he just likes to be important, condescending and show his great and vast authority over the moment. I see a lot of that in posts here and in calls I get from notaries telling me how I JUST SHOWED THEM and did not sign their loan because of blah, blah, blah.
They are disappointed when I cannot agree to see it their way just because of a missing initial.
To me, it is very black and white. I see that to others it is not...and, I still firmly believe the confusion on properly IDing to sign a DOT where their vested name is stated is a NNA promoted concept and could be a problem to notaries who haven't paused to ponder the difference very carefully.
I will leave with this thought. If we are going to act as a line of defense against fraud, we really should stop talking about fraud and act on it if we believe we see it. We should not just wash our hands of it and pass it on.
Sorry you took offense about the ID Nazi comment. I believe they exist.
| Reply by cassiewi on 12/3/06 2:00pm
Msg #163626
Out of curiousity
What would you do if in your acknowledgement on a mortgage it stated John Doe and Jane Doe, husband and wife? I understand that your reply is based on Texas law. This sometimes happens to me and my handbook does not specifically address this. I put a line through the husband and wife and initial it. I'm talking about in my acknowledgement not on the front page of the mortgage. My reasoning is that their identification does not state husband and wife. They've always recorded, however I got a call saying that a loan won't fund because I did this. I guess I just wanted your opinion. Am I being an ID nazi?
| Reply by BrendaTx on 12/3/06 2:55pm
Msg #163636
Re: Out of curiousity
**Am I being an ID nazi?**
No ma'am...that's a confusing one...I am not sure why they put that in there just out of the blue sometimes, but Texas attorneys draft loan docs. I cannot second guess them. It is my understanding that the signers are representing this status to me. They declare this, but they do not have to prove it to me. (I have a lawyer written book at work which shows all kinds of circumstances and execution lines...I wish I could locate a copy of it. It's actually just a notebook with pages in it written a few years ago and distributed at a conference...wish I could find it for sale for my reference at home.)
It's okay to have marital status and any number of other little things put into a notary certificate in Texas. When I notarize "husband and wife," it's saying this is what they presented their status to be. I don't have to certify it. Kinda like I don't have to certify that in Joe Blow's capacity as Independent Executor of an Estate. He may also sign off individually on that same document.
They may do a combined ack, or they may have one ack which will say:
"...appeared before me Joe Blow, Independent Executor of the Estate of Jane Blow, Deceased, ..." as well as ack for signature line for himself individually.
Don't know about Wisconsin.
=======================
See below...
Tx Civil Practices and Procedures
§ 121.006. ALTERATION OF AUTHORIZED FORMS;
DEFINITION. (a) An acknowledgment form provided by this chapter
may be altered as circumstances require. The authorization of a
form does not prevent the use of other forms. The marital status or
other status of the acknowledging person may be shown after the
person's name.
| Reply by cassiewi on 12/3/06 3:04pm
Msg #163637
I think it prepopulates with the info
Thanks, I was curious. I've only been questioned twice by companies I work for when doing this. Our handbook is not extensive nor crystal clear. We're trying to change that. I've been told I was being too picky. But they have all recorded, so I don't understand why they have an issue with it. BTW, did you get the message I left yesterday? I was hoping I hadn't done anything to make you mad.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 12/3/06 4:17pm
Msg #163649
Re: I think it prepopulates with the info
Cassie, I did in fact get your call but I was doing a wedding task with two others. There has been a great deal of activity this weekend in preparation of my son's wedding. I have spent the better part of the weekend with his dad and his wife running our errands, shopping, etc. Then, I made my visit to take Foxy out to see the lady I adopted him from who now lives in assisted living...after that I went to Wal-mart to seek a selection of organza wine bags...got home...called Mom, talked to the wife in law again...tried to chill out and just listen to the peace and quiet. This morning we were at it again.
Getting time just to post here and there has been a luxury...I am not used to being with people so much and my talker gets worn down. If you want to call me around 8 pm tonight I will probably be in more of a talkworthy state.
----------------
In the meantime, tell her the competition is so stiff that your professional network has pretty much agreed on a policy which is good for the entire group. It being that you are no longer actively assisting new people into the field no matter where they live in your state because they'd be competition for someone in your network ... and it's not a sensible thing to do from a marketing standpoint.
You will make people mad when you do this, but it's part of appearing competent. People will contact you with the inane idea you should hand everything over to them.
That was a rule I set with my group about the third time one of the members referred someone to me to tell them how to get into the biz and the person's sense of entitlement was bigger than this state.
With these types, it does not matter what reason you give, if you do not give her three hours of your time and all of your contact info, you best clients and a 2 liter bottle of Dr. Pepper, she's going to be po'd.
Another idea is to tell her that you coach notaries on how to get started for $125 an hour, payable $250 up front / min. of two hours...that there are so many people wanting to fill up the already crowded landscape that you feel like you are scamming people by doing it...you'll let her know.
| Reply by cassiewi on 12/3/06 4:27pm
Msg #163650
Whew, I was tired just reading it, lol
I figured you were really busy or I had done something to offend you. Glad it wasn't the latter of the two. Thanks, I did end up sending her the link to your handbook, but she didn't reply even with a thank you. I'm supposed to do her signing on Monday, so we'll see. Thank you for the suggestions, I appreciate it. I'll try to give a call so we can talk more then, there are a few other things about the situation I don't want to post here. Thanks again and hope to talk to you tonight.
| Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 12/3/06 3:32pm
Msg #163640
No Offense Taken...
...on my part to the word Nazi, I just disagree with your usage of it in this context. Nazi is an extremely negative, inflammatory term usually coined to categorize an individual as a mindless militant dedicated to a violent cause. Just because someone differs with your interpretation of the proper way to ID hardly reaches the accusatory level of "Nazi", especially when you've already stated your Texas handbook leaves a lot of leeway in this area.
As for deterring fraud, that specific word doesn't have to be mentioned in any state's handbooks for it to serve in that capacity. The "end result" of what we perform as Notaries is the deterring (not necessarily preventing) of fraudulent activity. Our acting in an impartial manner (neutral referee) CAN prevent someone from taking advantage of someone else in a legal situation. I equate it to being a referee in a football game. You normally don't think of a referee as someone who "deters cheating" (and you won't find it defined as such in the NFL rulebook), but that's the end result. They make sure the rules are enforced for both teams equally. In the same manner a Notary Public ensures their State's Notary statutes are being enforced so one party doesn't take advantage of the other. The end result is that it deters fraud. Does that mean as Notaries we'll prevent every fraudulent situation? No more than a referee catches every infraction in a football game. You do the best job you can & enforce the rules (statutes) to the best of your ability every single time. It's not a perfect system, but it's the only one we've got at the present time.
BTW, I'm as anti-NNA as anyone but I don't blame them for ALL the ills of the world at large.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 12/3/06 4:00pm
Msg #163646
Re: No Offense Taken...Re Nazi
Nazi...in this context the word is from pop culture/Seinfeld.
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soup_Nazi.
Elaine (on Seinfeld) makes an ordering error in front of the "Soup Nazi," and is banned for a year...The Soup Nazi was a stone-faced immigrant chef with a thick Stalin-esque moustache, who was well-known throughout the city for his delicious soups.
He demanded that all customers in his restaurant follow his meticulous (and seemingly arbitrary) soup-ordering instructions to the letter, lest they be refused service by his insistent admonishment, "No soup for you!"
| Reply by PAW on 12/3/06 6:52pm
Msg #163670
Florida's manual states:
>>> Deterring fraud is not mentioned in my handbook or yours, nor Florida's, as far as I could see. <<<
Au contraire mon sheri. The Florida Governor's Reference Manual for Notaries states on page 28:
The basic role of a notary public in our legal system and in the world of commerce is to prevent
fraud. Notaries deter fraud when they perform their duties with diligence and obey the laws
governing their duties.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 12/4/06 12:17am
Msg #163699
Re: Florida's manual states: Thanks...must have
been looking at the wrong part of the book. I stand corrected.
| Reply by Kate/CA on 12/2/06 9:07pm
Msg #163561
Hi Larry,
I started using credible witnesses when I went to renew my test last time and one of the questions was as such:
Mary has lost her purse, what can the notary use to identify her.
1, SS card
2, CCard
3, Birth certificate
4, Two credible witnesses THIS WAS THE RIGHT ANSWER
Now when someone looses their ID we can use credible witnesses and it is O.K., and we haven't a clue as to how the name listed is on the ID document. I made many calls to the SOS and those that say no, when really put on the spot, will change their minds. Before the use of ID the standard form of identifing someone was credible witnesses.
| Reply by Gary_CA on 12/3/06 10:10am
Msg #163603
One of those questions is self-answering...
>>Second, why will the SOS not accept e-mails so I could have a written record of their ridiculous answers.<<
That's exactly why.
Years ago I worked for an insurance company, during the 89 earthquake the VP of Claims told us "everybody screws up... don't confirm your errors in writing."
| Reply by Cassandra Andrews on 12/4/06 10:52am
Msg #163732
the nickname issue
you don't know that johnny is for john. i know someone named vickie NOT victoria. so if it's not on the ID . . . . in the absence of other acceptable ID, if asked what 'proof' you have that john is johnny you'd be hard pressed to produce evidence.
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