Posted by Jersey_Boy on 12/18/06 10:04pm
Msg #166608
Opinions Please - Petitions
My group is putting together a petition to get the guys in Trenton (NJ's Capitol) to get their butts in gear and update our notary laws. We have no idea how many signatures we will collect... but the more the better.
Here's the question. Do you feel it would be overstepping our boundaries to request a borrower to sign the petition? Opinions, Suggestions, and bashings welcomed.
I am curious to see what everyone thinks.
| Reply by ananotary on 12/18/06 10:12pm
Msg #166610
Re: Opinions Please - Petitions...Bad Idea to solicit from
Borrowers. You are there on business and that should be the only business you conduct. Of course you are free to stand outside of a store on the weekends the way most petitions are circulated, at least around here.
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 12/18/06 10:27pm
Msg #166614
I agree...
I think it might make some borrowers feel uncomfortable. After all, you have possesion of their loan docs that they are counting on...
| Reply by ME/NJ on 12/18/06 10:48pm
Msg #166618
Waste of time..
1. Who in the goverment would make money on this deal?
2. Who in the group has a ton $$$$
You live in Jersey, unless you pay to play nothing will happen. Only way something will happen without money is if someone important was hurt.
and Yes you would be over stepping your bounds pushing your political agenda with clients.
| Reply by Kate/CA on 12/19/06 1:16am
Msg #166636
You'd be better off standing out in front of a market, at least then you wouldn't have to be worried about being black balled by the title company or signing company.
| Reply by Susan Fischer on 12/19/06 4:35am
Msg #166645
Hey, Jersey- West Coaster here...
What are the updates your group is proposing?
If you are trying to make things better for the public, then I can't see anything wrong in asking a fellow citizen, at the conclusion of business, their opinions about some notorial issues. If the public would be better served, that is, better protected, then what could possibly be 'blacklistable?' IMHO, this is not a 'political agenda.' Archaic laws not in keeping with modern society are not in the public interest generally, but trying to make a better America is.
Presented in a professional, caring, knowledgeable, and logical way, after the conclusion of the business at hand and scope of your duties, and if the people are aminable to a short discussion, I just can't see the problem others have mentioned.
If you are simply trying to raise the fees for notorial duties, maybe working with your SOS may be a more prudent and productive way to go. Are there any non-partisan groups in your state that might be interested in updating your laws?
| Reply by Ernest__CT on 12/19/06 6:37am
Msg #166649
Don't solicit borrowers' signatures. Period. n/m
| Reply by Jersey_Boy on 12/19/06 8:16am
Msg #166659
Petition details...
In the petition, we are trying to get.
1) Background Screening requirements.
2) Education Requirement
3) Journal Requirements (he have none)
4) Stamp/Embosser Requirement (Our rules only say our name has to be printed on document)5) List of allowable identification (the rule now is we must be personally satisfied).
We are not even addressing fees. Our current fee's are $2.50 for an acknowledgement/jurat, $25 for the mortgagee of RE finance docs (no matter the number of acts performed), and $15 for the grantor in RE transfer docs (no matter the number of acts performed).
| Reply by SueW/Tn on 12/19/06 9:19am
Msg #166670
Morning JB
I'm thinking you're on a slippery slope discussing this with your BO's. If I were your client and you explained the issues of journals and educational requirements (or the lack thereof) I'd suddenly get concerned about my own docs and who you were and how qualified you were; we don't want that. I would think SS, TC's and Lenders homebased there would be more likely candidates to jump on board if it meant more protection for their product. The groups that will most benefit by the change are the ones you want to solicit support of.
| Reply by hcampersFL on 12/19/06 9:33am
Msg #166682
Patrick
Maybe you could start a internet petition. Circle it with people signing their names and email address. You could print and use it for the purposes you describe.
| Reply by Susan Fischer on 12/19/06 11:34am
Msg #166709
Sue has an excellent point. BOs may not be the best
champions. I've re-thought my previous post.
I maintain that the Finance Dept (or whatever NJ calls its agency) of the SOS is a better place to start. The process for changing legislation is tedious, and nothing can happen until a propposed change is first written.
Why not compose a proposal? Educate yourself and research the current law. You can find the legislative discussions relative to the enactments in your state archives. What are the harms of the existing laws? Why are the rationales for the current laws archaic/unresponsive to current needs of the public? How do your rationales for your suggested new language address those issues?
When you have a comprehensive argument, make an appointment with the DAG (Deputy Attorney General) assigned to the Finance Dept (or whomever the legal arm is for that dept) along with the Notary Public Division person, and present your case. I would think a very short meeting would be all that is necessary.
Because in all liklihood this jurisdiction falls under agency law, the place to start is with the agency. It is not the same as trying to get a new criminal or civil law passed.
In the meantime, public awareness can be achieved by writing an editorial in the local papers. Finding examples of how the current laws are harmful, or potentially harmful to citizens, coupled with examples of how other states have updated their laws to comport with the challenges of modern needs, will help folks understand that it is in the best interests of the people of New Jersey to support such a proposal.
IMHO, your SOS is going to be your best friend here. Petition gathering seems best left to political quests for change. After all, this is no political hot potato - it is merely a logical step in updating outdated requirements for the public good.
| Reply by ME/NJ on 12/19/06 10:01am
Msg #166692
Re: Petition details...
Don't forget the big bag of money when you hand it over to your congressman. Do you think they are going to do something..
Christ if it was not for the courts mandating the civil union act, nothing would of passed before they adjourned.
Wake up..
| Reply by Jersey_Boy on 12/19/06 10:15am
Msg #166694
ME/NJ
Nobody has a big bag of money to hand over to any congressman.
Regardless, to sit back and do nothing about issues that are important to us is foolish, JMHO.
You can't make 100% of the people happy 100% of the time. Change is needed in New Jersey. If we want something done, we need to do something. To sit back and do nothing will only produce more nothing. If we try this out and it works, great! If we try this out and it fails, then I can sit back and be content that I DID something.
| Reply by Julie/MI on 12/19/06 3:33pm
Msg #166738
Re: Petition details...Why?
Why don't you address the fees?
Do you feel you have "bad" notaries in NJ?
Education, all a notary needs to know is they need to card the person and the difference between a jurat and acknowledgment. What more do you need to know?
Journal requirements. You NJ notaries have the honor of your state's government allowing you to make the determination if you want to journal or not. Why do you want the law to change with journaling?
Why do you want to HAVE to use a stamp and/or embosser? We don't have to use one here in MIchigan, and life is still good.
Personally satisifed is a win win situation for everyone, the borrower doensn't have to go out and get new ID so long as they have something, and you are have some control if someone forgot to renew their DL or state ID.
Or I suggest you move to CA, they love laws there....
I would also suggest you add that a notary public may not stuff a petition in front of an affiant as well. That is a really really bad idea.
| Reply by Susan Fischer on 12/19/06 5:06pm
Msg #166751
Re: Petition details...Why?
Julie, I don't think JB was proposing "stuffing a petition" in front of anyone, and the concensus of responders is not in favor of enjoining borrowers in the process in any case. And as for "education, all a notary needs to know is they need to card the person and the difference between a jurat and acknowledgment. What more do you need to know?" If that is true, then what are the hundreds of threads on this board dealing with myriad questions regarding our profession?
| Reply by Julie/MI on 12/19/06 6:07pm
Msg #166757
Re: Petition details...Why?
I wish I new Susan.
I was a notary long before I even knew about the nna and all I did was card people and have them sign at the title company. Life was good, no fraud, no claims on my insurance, no journaling, no worries--then comes along NNA and creates what I call "chicken little" senarios and newbies that just don't know any better fall for them hook line and sinker--
Then came CA and the CA based NNA and their mighty notary dos and don's and then came these boards and everyone seems to think CA is the standard of notary stuff and CA notaries have more questions then NJ notaries or Michigan notaries, so I have no clue--I'm still scratching my head on something that gives the notary some latitude.
| Reply by Jersey_Boy on 12/19/06 7:15pm
Msg #166776
Re: Petition details...Why?
I have no intentions nor did I ever plan on requesting borrowers to sign the petition... I just like to see how people react to different scenarios and I am very much interested in suggestions that anyone may offer.
NJ Notary laws are aweful. In my opinion, they leave too much for the notary to interpret. Our laws aren't Black & White, they're not even grey. Maybe if you hold them up to the light, you might suspect that there's something there.
If I refuse a notarization due to improper identification, technically I am refusing it because I am not "personally satisfied" to that person's identity. So the person finds another notary, and they're "personally satisfied" with the same id that I found to be inadequate, notarization performed, and I look like the @$$hole.
The laws of NJ say one thing, you go to the Notary Division's website and it say a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT thing. You call the Notary Division and they don't even know the answer. I've called them a few times, most of the time they want to refer me to MY ATTORNEY. Maybe this is because I don't ask questions like "how do I fill out a jurat"? My questions have been "what are the state's feeling on notarizing for a minor?" or "are there any requirements I have to meet to train other notaries?" - They hear these questions and just freeze up.
I don't want CA rules by any means. I just want written procedures on what's accetable ID and what isn't. Require a sequencial journal. etc. I am a B&W kinda guy. Make a rule and I'll follow it, don't make me make up the rules as I go....
Thanks to all for your ideas.
| Reply by Susan Fischer on 12/19/06 8:31pm
Msg #166788
HI, JB! OR has addressed notarizing a minor's
signature: usual procedure for ID, minor must add age after sig, notary notes 'minor' in journal.
One place you might start is to list specific procedures you wish to address. For each, state NJ law (or lack thereof), compare and contrast to other state laws - not necessarily CA's - but good, common sense procedures you feel adequately address the issue. Minors, acceptable IDs, photographs, credible witnesses, journals...
Explain why a proposed precedure would benefit the citizens and Notaries Public, as opposed to the status quo.
Meet with SOS, blah, blah - already talked about that.
Anyhoo, good for you for trying to bring NJ along. Not that I'm in favor of trying to make a law for every possible contingency, but other states need to be able to trust the validity of a notary's decisions because they are backed up by the State of NJ, not because his/her attorney rendered an unofficial opinion.
The complexity of this particular industry is ever increasing, and compounded by some state laws or their absence. JMHO.
Cheers,
Susie
| Reply by MelissaCT on 12/20/06 10:56am
Msg #166902
Re: Fees
I recently read a position article from Notary Law Institute regarding notary fees. The reason they are set so low is that higher fees create a financial interest in the transaction. By keeping fees so low that it's not really worth it, there is no financial interest involved. Mind you, this is simply a position on the topic (at least that's the way I read it).
| Reply by PAW on 12/20/06 12:13pm
Msg #166923
Re: Fees
That is totally asinine. (And I'm not pointing at you, Melissa, but to the Notary Law Institute.) A financial interest is a financial interest no matter what the amount is. Sheesh! And having a fee does not create a financial interest in the transaction. (Having a fee based on a percentage of the transaction would be, but not a flat fee.) A fee is payment for services irrespective of the benefit to the principals. Being paid for a service does not make the provider a principal nor a benefactor of the transaction.
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