Posted by Poppy on 12/2/06 9:59am
Msg #163450

Poll: To attach or not to attach...

I'm curious how many of us attach the certificate to the doc...
And how many of us just note that there is a loose certificate and clearly identify it of course...

I'm an upper left hand corner stapler. (Okay for those of you who take things literally... I'm not actually a stapler, but I do like to attach the cert. by staple in the upper left hand corner.)

However I've been asked before not to attach it with a staple... Wondering if others worry about complying with this request...

Reply by PAW on 12/2/06 10:10am
Msg #163452

I always attach the loose certificate with a staple, EXCEPT on deeds and mortgages, since these are recording documents that need to be scanned (at least here in FL).

I also annotate the pre-printed notary certificate on the document with a single diagonal line and write across the signature line, "See attached certificate".

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/2/06 12:53pm
Msg #163474

Re: The Florida Handbook says loose certificates

are to be stapled to the document in the left margin (just read this yesterday or the day before as a result of another post concerning attaching certs). I carry a small stapler in my briefcase and always attach the loose cert, seal it then emboss both cert and doc together.

Reply by PAW on 12/2/06 2:51pm
Msg #163491

Re: The Florida Handbook says loose certificates

>>> The Florida Handbook says loose certificates are to be stapled to the document in the left margin ... <<<

Linda,

What Handbook are your referring to? The Governor's Manual only states that loose certificates are to be attached, which doesn't mean stapled, though stapling a document certainly would make it attached. (Just like Exhibit "A" being attached, but it certainly isn't stapled to the mortgage.) AAMOF, the word "staple" is not found in the manual at all.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/2/06 3:55pm
Msg #163499

Re: The Florida Handbook says loose certificates

The Florida Notary Primer I have - and I apologize I can't give you the page number - I'm out of town for the weekend..will look when I'm at my desk Tuesday if you want.

Reply by PAW on 12/2/06 3:57pm
Msg #163500

Re: The Florida Handbook says loose certificates

Is that the one the NNA wrote?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/2/06 4:01pm
Msg #163501

Re: The Florida Handbook says loose certificates

Umm..<<gulp>>...yep...<G>

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/2/06 4:04pm
Msg #163503

Re: And upon further (very brief) review...

I don't see anything in the Governor's Manual that says how to attach loose certificates - it just says attach...

Reply by PAW on 12/2/06 4:13pm
Msg #163504

Re: And upon further (very brief) review...

Yep, just "attach". Does not state a method. In Sarasota county (and some clerks in Hillsborough and Pasco) object vehemently if a loose ack is stapled to a recording document. Reason being that all recorded documents must be scanned for digital imaging and if there's a page somewhere in the middle of the stack (such as a mortgage with riders) stapled to a following page, then it jambs the scanner.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/2/06 4:23pm
Msg #163505

Re: Understood - but I'm not crazy about leaving them loose

How about using scotch tape on the left side of the cert - then emboss together - can be scanned that way..

Reply by PAW on 12/2/06 4:35pm
Msg #163506

Re: Understood - but I'm not crazy about leaving them loose

The problem is that the scanner has an ADF (automatic document feeder) that pulls one page at a time. If there is a page that is physically attached to another, it jambs the feeder. If you use an embosser, you can still emboss both pages at the same time. All my attached certificates have a portion on the bottom that states various information, including what document it is attached to, how many pages to the document (including the attached certificate), date on the document, other signers of the document of the document (such as witnesses or principals who are signing at a different time and whose names do not appear in the notary certification) and the capacity of the signer(s). You are welcome to download copies of the Florida compliant loose certificates from my website. Then you can see what I'm talking about.

Reply by PAW on 12/2/06 4:38pm
Msg #163507

Only for recorded instruments

All other documents that a loose certificate is attached to, has that attachment stapled in the upper left corner. I don't staple loose certificates to Trust documents, POA's, deeds or mortgages.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/2/06 4:38pm
Msg #163508

Re: Yep - just like my fax/copy machine...

and I make a copy of a check the invoice (for example) by taping the check to the invoice on top of the check - both feed through no problem - <<shrug>>

So far I haven't run into needing to attach many loose certificates but those I've done with staple have gone through fine as far as I know.

Thanks Paul

Reply by PAW on 12/2/06 4:45pm
Msg #163509

Re: Yep - just like my fax/copy machine...

Yep, but they'll feed through together, if it doesn't jamb. So, if you tape the loose cert to the mortgage, then the cert won't get scanned. Then, when the files are reviewed, guess what, no notary acknowledgment!! Not a good thing.

Reply by MichiganAl on 12/3/06 3:52am
Msg #163587

Please everyone, be careful what you state as fact.

It's just plain scary to see this place flooded with admittedly new people tossing around misinformation and advice. It's been completely out of control the last couple of months. Please everyone, stick to what you know or have the facts in front of you. You don't have to prove anything by trying to answer questions you're not qualified to answer. If this is rude, so be it. It's better than the alternative.

Reply by Lee/AR on 12/2/06 10:10am
Msg #163453

No staple because

And I'm really not sure I'm right... but I think they copy/scan everything & pulling staples would be a minor PITA for them. My loose certs reference the doc so it can't be used for anything else. Only thing I staple is Checks.

Reply by Poppy on 12/2/06 10:24am
Msg #163454

Thanks guys. I feel better about not attaching the loose

certs to deeds knowing that both of you are okay with it... (sometimes it helps to have confirmation from people you respect)
I should have mentioned that I don't attach the cert with a staple to deeds, but honestly I still get a little twinge of should or shouldn't I when I don't do it...
Have a great weekend! "smiles" Poppy

Reply by Kate/CA on 12/2/06 9:27pm
Msg #163563

Read 1188 of the CA Handbook. n/m

Reply by Joe Ewing on 12/2/06 10:52am
Msg #163458

Hi Poppy. Staple the attachment to the back of the document at the left hand corner. The exception would be the Certification of Power of Attorney and that would be also stapled on the left hand corner but to the front of the document.

Loan Documents will be copied when they are returned to escrow. Staples would most likely have to be removed at that time or the documents will be damaged or destroyed by the copier. Beware... the phone call from escrow might sound something like, Ms. Poppy you failed to include the notarized page of the Deed of Trust. You will have to meet with the client and have them sign another one. (True Story)

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/2/06 11:03am
Msg #163462

I say definitely staple them. That way if they misplace the certificate and call you to tell you that you forgot to notarize the document you can point out the staple holes that will be visible in the upper left corner of the document when they fax it to you (also a true story).

Reply by Blueink_CA on 12/2/06 7:41pm
Msg #163547

Question for Cali

Cali, I respect your posts, that is why I am directing this ? to you.

I use a loose ack maybe twice a year. When oath's don't comply to CA, I use my trusty jurat stamp. When the ack is not CA compliant it is usually (99% of the time) for a lender/tc that is out of state, I use the wording given. The DOT, if it is for California property. has always had the correct wording.

The only time I have used a CA ack (for an out of state ack) is when the wording determines capacity of the signer. Very seldom.

So my question to you, how often do you use an CA All Purpose CA Ack? And why?

Reply by Jon on 12/2/06 8:46pm
Msg #163556

Re: Question for Cali

"When the ack is not CA compliant it is usually (99% of the time) for a lender/tc that is out of state, I use the wording given."

Unfortunately, using the wording given(if not compliant with Ca) is a violation of Ca state law. The only exception to using Ca required wording on an ack is if the alternate wording is REQUIRED in the other jurisdiction. It does not say any acceptable wording for the other state, it says "required" in the other state. I know of no state that requires their wording over appropriate wording from another state.

The key here is "required". How do you know if the wording given is "required"? You may want to reconsider using o/s acks without Ca wording.

Reply by Blueink_CA on 12/2/06 9:55pm
Msg #163565

Re: Question for Cali

Thanks Jon for your thoughts, but I was addressing Cali for his thoughts.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 12/3/06 1:30am
Msg #163586

I agree with Jon

Blueink_CA, Jon may not post as often as Cali, but I believe he is one of the most experienced posters who come to this board and I have a hunch has been at this longer than Cali - or most of the rest of us. He definitely knows what he's talking about (and I completely agree with his post, FWIW). I respect both their opinions and I think it would be wise to pay close attention to either one...

Reply by Jon on 12/3/06 10:34pm
Msg #163688

Re: Question for Cali

My apologies for trying to help you stop a practice that could cost you your commission. After all the years of posting on this board I should know better than to try helping.

BTW, if you use the orange button at the top that says "SEARCH" you will find that Cali has answered your question many times. If memory serves me, you will see that Cali agrees.

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/8/06 5:10pm
Msg #164873

Re: Question for Cali

Well now that I'm a few days late to this thread and nobody will ever see this response, I'll still spew one out.

I mostly agree with Jon, but I don't think it's that the other wording has to be required in order to use out of state wording, I think it just has to be something that will be recorded in another state.

The only time I'll use the out of state wording is on a DOT. I know that is going to be recorded, and I don't think I've ever seen one with the incorrect wording on it.

Other than that, I'll staple a loose acknowledgment to the document, and that happens fairly frequently. A lot of times all the ack wording on all the docs will be CA compliant except for the compliance agreement. No idea why that happens, but I see it a lot.

Reply by kathy/ca on 12/3/06 1:18am
Msg #163585

Jon, I totally agree with you, but Blueink is interested in

only what Cali thinks!

Reply by Cassandra Andrews on 12/4/06 11:00am
Msg #163736

hey cali - that also happend to a friend of mine and . . .

the staple holes were the proof!

Reply by Poppy on 12/4/06 12:14pm
Msg #163749

Thanks all... Some very interesting points of view...

It's been a quandary of mine for quite a while.
Of course like everyone else I look to the handbook first. But as we all know sometimes the handbook and the law are open to interpretation.

CA: Handbook says to endorse thereon or attach thereto.... There are no requirements as to how to attach thereto...

I appreciate the responses and very valid points made by many... Have a great day all!