Posted by Pamela on 12/8/06 8:55pm
Msg #164909

Undermining Profession

A few days ago, I had a telephone request to do a public notarization.
The signer stated that his name was John Doe. Said that he needed documents
notarized for employment with the Highway Patrol. Asked if he had (legal)
identification, he said, "Yes." So far, so good. Appointment was set.

Later he called back and stated that, identification had "Gizmo Smoe"
as legal name. Stated that he was "in the process" of becoming a U.S. citizen
(and of legally changing his name to "John Doe", and therefore wanted
to use his "new American name" of John Doe. That he had explained
this to the Highway Patrol and they told him that this was okay, as long
as he attached proof.

I stated that if I were to complete the notarization,
I would have to identify him as Gizmo Smoe and write that
information on the loose notarized certificate.
He said no, he only wanted the name John Doe to be notarized.

Due to the urgency of the matter (he had a deadline to submit
the documents, and had no legal identification to show John Doe),
I asked him if he could provide two Credible Witnesses. He
said "Yes." That everyone knew who "Gizmo" was. I asked,
if anyone knew him as John Doe, "No, but they could witness
anything you wanted them to witness."

I politely declined.

The next evening, he telephoned me to let me know
that another notary had notarized his documents as
John Doe WITHOUT any legal identification (However,
he did show her the court documents to verify that
he was in the process of having his name changed).

He remarked that his "explanation was good enough for her
. . .and because he was going to be a CHP officer. . ."
He also wanted to know, why I made "something so simple
so difficult". He told me that I shouldn't be "so uptight. . ."

I do not know all the details of this notarization, as this is what the
signer told me. However, if this is true, I detest the action
of any notary, who would identify someone because the explanation
"sounds good" and/or due to the profession that person may be in,
or going to be in.


Pam

Reply by Traveling2U on 12/8/06 9:03pm
Msg #164911

Re: Undermining Profession h..um

I hope that notary never pulled over by only to find out he was on America's Wanted. That's how criminals slip the the cracks due to notaries like that. So he felt the need to brag ;-)

I would save that assigment...scary

Reply by Pamela on 12/8/06 9:15pm
Msg #164914

Re: Undermining Profession h..um

So very true.
But he actually "scolded" me (more or less).

Pam

Reply by Traveling2U on 12/8/06 9:26pm
Msg #164918

Re: Undermining Profession h..um

Well when you know you done the right thing. Step back and say thank goodness you're not blinded by money. I hope the notary doesn't get called to the red carpet one day.

That is truely scary

Reply by Kate/CA on 12/9/06 12:20pm
Msg #165040

Wasn't blinded by money..

just studipity. It is amazing how many notaries out there, especially those that don't frequent these boards are so uninformed. They think they are doing it correctly.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 12/8/06 9:05pm
Msg #164912

An officer of the law unwilling to uphold the law? I doubt

he will finish training. What other laws will he be willing to break?

Reply by Susan Fischer on 12/8/06 9:08pm
Msg #164913

BTW, well done! n/m

Reply by Pamela on 12/8/06 9:23pm
Msg #164916

Re: BTW, well done!

Thank You Very Much!

It is very irritating when you know what is correct,
yet, all the while, someone else is undermining the
very same profession (and its laws). And as in this
situation, made me look like the "bad" person.

Pam

Reply by Traveling2U on 12/8/06 9:34pm
Msg #164919

You done the right thing we need 10 more like you!! n/m

Reply by Pamela on 12/8/06 9:54pm
Msg #164923

Re: You done the right thing we need 10 more like you!!

Thank You and I Appreciate the feedback.

I've been literally screamed at by (a few, though not many) signing
company reps (who are "long-time experienced" notaries), because
I refused to do an illegal act (though in their book, "every notary does it"
and because they have "much more experience" than me). I even had
one person gasp outloud, as if in shock. . .(

Again, Thank You!


Pam

Reply by John_NorCal on 12/8/06 10:40pm
Msg #164946

Gonna throw some gasoline on this fire folks.....

Ordinarily my first instinct would be to refuse. However you state that they showed court documents, if in my opinion the documents showed that the name had been changed and was basically waiting for the legal publication, then I would have notarized. The documents would have to have the court seal on it showing the judge had signed it.

I presented something in the same vein to the SOS office and I think there response has the answer to this:

**There is nothing in the law that specifically says you can or cannot. I can only refer you to Civil Code section 1185 (3) which states "Reasonable reliance of the presentation to the officer..." It is normally reasonable to believe that if "Chris" is on the document, is short for Christine, which is on the identification, however if the id shows just Chris, the document could show Christina, Christine, Christopher, etc. Again, you need to have reasonable reliance that the person appearing before you is the same person who signed the document.

Mary Ingham
Notary Public Section

Using the Civil Code as Ms Ingham quotes it, I might have conducted this notarization with all things being equal. The operative phrase being, "reasonable reliance of the presentation to the officer......."

The question I posed is in thread 163036, it is a bit different than this thread, but I feel the general question is the same.

Reply by Pamela on 12/8/06 11:07pm
Msg #164955

Re: Gonna throw some gasoline on this fire folks.....

It's my understanding (I did not see any paperwork) is that he submitted
documents to the courts, for his name to be changed. He had not received
anything back.

Still, I use the CA notary Handbook as guidance as to what is required to
identify someone.

For example, if Doe Smith is now married and her new name is Doe Blitz,
I cannot accept her marriage license as a form of identification, to show
that she is now Doe Blitz (Which is why I asked for the two Credible
Witnesses.).

There is way too much fraud, and I would rather err on the side of caution.

Pam

Reply by Susan Fischer on 12/8/06 11:12pm
Msg #164957

Re: Gonna throw some gasoline on this fire folks.....

Just an observation, but I didn't see where the gentleman offered Pamela the court's document. Perhaps if he had, she would have accepted the court's order. JMHO

Reply by Pamela on 12/8/06 11:25pm
Msg #164963

Susan,

No, I did not see any documents. This information
was told to me by telephone.

The signer had submitted his information to the courts, but had
not received anything back.

Pam

Reply by John_NorCal on 12/8/06 11:29pm
Msg #164966

Re: Susan,

**The signer had submitted his information to the courts, but had
not received anything back.**

Then I would agree with you on this. Just wanted to throw another perspective on this.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 12/9/06 12:19am
Msg #164991

And a fine perspective it is! n/m

Reply by NotaryDoc on 12/9/06 3:32pm
Msg #165049

Re: Susan,

If he has not received anything back, then the name change is not yet legal...You did the right thing.

Reply by John_NorCal on 12/8/06 11:27pm
Msg #164964

Re: Gonna throw some gasoline on this fire folks.....

As I said IF there was official court documentation, meaning a judges signature, the court seal then I mjay have notarized, not would have. It depends on what is presented.
As for Pam's post above, I won't buy her argument about the marriage certificate. If a person presents ID in her maiden name as well as her marriage certificate showing she was just married, isn't it reasonable to reasonable to assume that she is in fact who she said she is? As the Civil Code says, "reasonable reliance on the documentation presented to the officer."

Reply by Joe Ewing on 12/8/06 11:44pm
Msg #164973

Re: Gonna throw some gasoline on this fire folks.....

Yes John that's what a reasonable person would do. But wouldn't it be better to be unreasonable and just have the signer get 2 persons to swear under penalty of purgery which is a Felony punishable by 2,3,or 4 years in prison that that is the married name of the signer?

Reply by John_NorCal on 12/8/06 11:53pm
Msg #164978

Re: Gonna throw some gasoline on this fire folks.....

Joe, I have no problem with CW's either, within reason of course!

Reply by Pamela on 12/8/06 11:50pm
Msg #164976

John, Re: Gonna throw some gasoline on this fire folks.....

Good point.

However, in my opinion, relying on the marriage certificate
(which may or may not be authentic ), is using it as an aide
to identify someone. That being the case, one could argue
that a birth certificate or divorce papers could also be used
to show someone's maiden name (for a divorcee who has not
had the chance to change her married name to that of her
"maiden" name).

Pam

Reply by John_NorCal on 12/8/06 11:55pm
Msg #164979

Re: John, Re: Gonna throw some gasoline on this fire folks.....

A divorce decree usually has an order by the court allowing reversion to the maiden name.

Reply by Pamela on 12/9/06 12:04am
Msg #164983

Re: John, Re: Gonna throw some gasoline on this fire folks.....

Yes, I understand.

Again, perhaps I'm being too overly cautious.
But I just want to adhere as close to the handbook
as possible.

Have you seen this website?

Http://www.mortgagefraudblog.com



Pam

Reply by TitleGalCA on 12/9/06 10:47pm
Msg #165079

John NorCal is an experienced, respected notary

You should pay attention to what he says and learn from it.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 12/9/06 10:55pm
Msg #165081

Re: John NorCal is an experienced, respected notary

further, another respected notary has backed him in a difficult situation.

It's not all about black and white. Those notaries won't last long - the ones that can't make a decision.

Reply by NotaryDoc on 12/9/06 3:28pm
Msg #165047

I would call the CA Highway Patrol Backgrounds investigation unit and report his behaviour and comments to you. I wouldnt want him carrying a gun and badge on our roads, who know what his morals really are. And then report him to the Secretary of State, and that he is becoming a CHP officer, and again, what his comments were and that the CHP is accepting an illegal notorization. Just my opinion though...

Reply by Signing_Doc on 12/9/06 5:18pm
Msg #165063

Notarydoc...contact me...my legal dept may want 2 talk 2 you n/m

Reply by Susan Fischer on 12/9/06 9:53pm
Msg #165074

No sh*t. n/m

Reply by NotaryDoc on 12/11/06 2:48pm
Msg #165270

Re: Notarydoc...contact me...my legal dept may want 2 talk 2 you

please,YOUR legal Dept... I am entitled to MY opinion. Its ridiculous, so many people here complaint about how they are treated so bad, expected to do so many illegal acts, yet NONE of them are willing to DO anything about it. Get over yourself!