Posted by ZeeCA on 12/7/06 11:17pm
Msg #164691

i had two firsts tonight!

I have been so lucky and never needed to have credible witnesses and tonight I found out when I got there he did not have an ID which he thought he did.... so another 10 minutes....but I got another customer from it!

and my other first
the B/O 's primary language was spanish, so I got to practice my skills a bit!

interesting night!

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/7/06 11:46pm
Msg #164695

"I have been so lucky and never needed to have credible witnesses and tonight I found out when I got there he did not have an ID which he thought he did"

Did he just forget to bring his ID? That is not a situation where you can use credible witnesses.

Reply by ZeeCA on 12/7/06 11:51pm
Msg #164696

no, he had zilch that was acceptable.. he thought that what he had was acceptable but nope it was not.

it was credible witnesses or no signing

Reply by AngelinaAZ on 12/7/06 11:53pm
Msg #164697

So what was the 'unacceptable' thing he did have? n/m

Reply by ZeeCA on 12/7/06 11:59pm
Msg #164699

Re: So what was the 'unacceptable' thing he did have?

he had an old expired calif ID card (too expired) and he told me it was an expired cdl and he had renewed it and had the dated paper....
nope...it was an expired ID Card and the paper was a change of addy from many many years ago

no passport etc

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/8/06 12:04am
Msg #164701

I wouldn't have done the signing

That a person hasn't bothered to go to the DMV and renew their ID is not a valid reason to use a credible witness.

Reply by ZeeCA on 12/8/06 12:06am
Msg #164703

Re: I wouldn't have done the signing

he had applied for a dl but has not come yet

why we use cred witnesses in these situations....

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/8/06 12:16am
Msg #164704

Re: I wouldn't have done the signing

No, we use credible witnesses when circumstances are such that it is very difficult or impossible for the borrower to obtain a proper ID.

Obviously it was not at all difficult and quite possible for this guy to get a proper ID, therefore it was not a situation where a credible witness should be used.

Reply by Larry/Ca on 12/8/06 12:18am
Msg #164705

CaliNotary you have been pointed to as an.....

expert on using credible winesses. My question is what condition, perhaps 'C' section 1185, would prevent you from using credible witesses in this case.

Reply by Larry/Ca on 12/8/06 12:21am
Msg #164706

Re: CaliNotary you have been pointed to as an.....

Thanks, I'm way to slow on the typer.

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/8/06 12:26am
Msg #164707

I'm no expert, just stubborn

I just can't believe that the notary handbook would list numerous conditions, ALL of which must be met, for the use of credible witnesses, if they really just meant "use them if the borrower doesn't have anything else on him".

And there are quite a few people on this board who vehemently disagree with me. And the email I got from the SOS office disagrees with me. And I still think I'm right and they're wrong.

And taking off my notary hat and putting on my signing agent hat, I think we owe it to the lender, who is putting up hundreds of thousands of dollars in most cases, to make sure the person signing the docs is ABSOLUTELY the right person, and not just some con artist who got 2 other con artists to say "yeah, it's him".

Reply by ZeeCA on 12/8/06 12:31am
Msg #164708

Re: I'm no expert, just stubborn

first of all I made darn sure he was who he was... I did not just say hey get two people....

it is more than he did not have it... and according to all I had read, this def qualified....

lenders very aware of the situation

Reply by ZeeCA on 12/8/06 12:33am
Msg #164709

and I had turned down one a couple of weeks ago if you had

read a prev post of mine as she refused to renew her DL and it had been renewed so many times it had been 10-15 years since it was issued.... and she had even been ticketed for an expired DL

i do not take this situation lightly.

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/8/06 12:36am
Msg #164711

Re: and I had turned down one a couple of weeks ago if you h

That's good, you shouldn't take it lightly. But IMO far too many people on this board do take it lightly and will use CWs in ANY situation.

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/8/06 12:34am
Msg #164710

Re: I'm no expert, just stubborn

"it is more than he did not have it... and according to all I had read, this def qualified...."

So then what were the circumstances that made it very difficult or impossible for him to obtain proper ID? You said he told you he had already done so, he just hadn't received it yet. Doesn't that mean that it WASN'T very difficult or impossible?

Reply by ZeeCA on 12/8/06 12:39am
Msg #164712

Re: I'm no expert, just stubborn

he was from another country and had to go thru a bit of a different process. not like you or i where we take the test pass and it is sent automatically to us

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/8/06 12:44am
Msg #164713

Re: I'm no expert, just stubborn

But he still managed to do it, so I'm not seeing the "very difficult or impossible" part. That the process is different is irrelevant. Especially since he already had an expired ID card, which means he's done it before and should already know the process and how long it takes. And should have made sure it was done by the time his ID card expired. All I'm seeing from what you've written is a guy who was too lazy to take care of this when he should have.

Reply by ZeeCA on 12/8/06 12:50am
Msg #164714

not always black and white...and according to the guidelines

It was perfectly acceptable to use cw

i hate doing it and i usually force them to reschedule after they have gotten their butt to the dmv

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/8/06 12:52am
Msg #164715

I'm still not seeing it

what in the guidelines made this situation perfectly acceptable compared to any other situation where you would have made someone go to the DMV? I would think that since he (supposedly) already went to the DMV and had a new license on the way, that would make it even clearer that it's not a CW situation.

Reply by ZeeCA on 12/8/06 12:57am
Msg #164719

Re: I'm still not seeing it

the guidelines I read even states if they have a license but not in their possession use cw... I would NOT if they have one or can get one....

in cases like this from I had been told it can take a bit but no one knows when to get a license when you come from a diff country

i have a brother who is a citizen of three countrys and then some....he renews his license when he is here and it is not a simple in / out

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/8/06 1:16am
Msg #164720

Re: I'm still not seeing it

While it can be difficult for a citizen of another country to get a US ID, shouldn't they have a passport from the country they came from? That would be valid ID. A non-US citizen certainly MIGHT be a situation where CW would be acceptable, I could see circumstances where it would qualify as "very difficult".

However, you said he had already gone through the process and it was on its way. So in this particular circumstance I would say it's definitely NOT very difficult. I think you're generalizing too much and considering the circumstances of all immigrants, instead of only focusing on the circumstances of this particular situation.

As for the guidelines you read, the CA handbook states "the person making the acknowledgment does not possess any of the identification documents named in paragraph 3 and 4". "Does not possess" and "not in their possession" are two different things. I possess a couch, but it's certainly not in my possession when I leave the house. Just because I don't have it on me doesn't mean I no longer possess it.

And I hope you realize I'm not picking on you, this is just one of my favorite arguments on this board, interpreting the way too vague wording of the credible witness requirements.

Who knows, maybe someday somebody will convince me to change my mind

Reply by MichiganAl on 12/8/06 1:43am
Msg #164722

I just read the CA manual and I think Cali is spot on

I'm not an expert on CA, but from the verbiage I just read, page 8 of the CA handbook, I absolutely agree with Cali. It says C.W. can be used if getting an i.d. were difficult or impossible and the signer doesn't possess any of the documents (doesn't possess them, not doesn't have them on him at the time). So, losing your i.d., not renewing, not having it on you, or in this case, not having it sent to you yet, doesn't qualify. I don't think you can make the claim that it was difficult or impossible for the signer to obtain since they did obtain it but it just hasn't come in the mail yet. According to Zee's argument, all foreigners can get away with using C.W. because it's so difficult for foreigners to get an i.d. I think the signing should not have taken place.

Reply by ZeeCA on 12/8/06 2:00am
Msg #164723

Re: I'm still not seeing it

i agree to a point and no, i do not mind the debate

not all have a passport as they did not come in legally and chose to do amnesty

Reply by Susan Fischer on 12/8/06 2:54am
Msg #164731

You're argument will not change Cali's mind this time... n/m

Reply by DD/OR on 12/8/06 8:55am
Msg #164754

Re: I'm still not seeing it

Cali, you're absolutely right. Thanks for posting. Its scarey to know there are notaries like Zee who will do this kind of thing. But then I wonder if she is really a notary since non-notaries can post here also.

Reply by Amalia Contreras on 12/8/06 2:26pm
Msg #164831

Re: I'm still not seeing it

CaliNotary can you give me your input in using the MATRICULA from Mexico as a form if ID for the borrower if no other form of ID. Your feedback is greatley appriciated.

Reply by Joe Ewing on 12/8/06 2:32am
Msg #164729

Oh boy no ID, primary borrower speaks very little english, wants to borrow half a million dollars, just needs a Notary to complete the deal. I would have adjourned that assignment in a New york second. How on earth did you NOT know what was there waiting for you? Didn't you contact the signer before the signing and review what was needed?

I use credible witness almost never but occasionally in the event the signer is old, sick or in a skilled nursing facility. Reasons I feel are valid ones for not having one. Even in those situations the ID exists, it's just expired.

Reply by faceynotary on 12/8/06 6:26am
Msg #164732

Mr. Joe "It's a NY Minute"

I am NYker, sensitive about things LOL...

Read the posts. I agree with most. No need to comment. I hope I never have to use credible witnesses. Cali I like your wits and you are steadfast to your beliefs... Hard to find these days.

Have a good day all.

Reply by Calnotary on 12/8/06 7:12am
Msg #164739

It could be this situation:

Many latinos that have left their CA DL expired is because they dont have a SS card. They only have an expired
license because they could not renew it! They always say that their license is on the way. So for them this is impossible to have a driver's lic.

Reply by ZeeCA on 12/8/06 8:27am
Msg #164748

had a SS card n/m

Reply by Sher_AZ on 12/8/06 8:38am
Msg #164750

Re: It could be this situation:

I agree. Too often there is a "reason" the person does not possess a current DL or picture ID because they can't get one. This is where the potential for fraudulent loan practice is a high risk if proper ID not present. Also, thread below says borrower had SS card. SS card is not a picture ID.

Reply by DD/OR on 12/8/06 8:51am
Msg #164752

Re: It could be this situation:

I recently turned down someone from Mexico, who had no DL, because I was suspicious. Everyone knows they are buying fraudulent SS cards and other forms of ID on street corners. Its all over the news. Mortgage loan fraud & identity theft is rampant. Notaries like Zee are helping to condone it. In my opinion, its notaries like Zee who pose a threat to the mortgage loan industry. She should be reported to the CA SOS office.

Reply by ZeeCA on 12/8/06 8:52am
Msg #164753

Re: It could be this situation:

he had picture IDs but none that was acceptable per the guidelines...

BELIEVE ME I DID NOT TAKE THIS LIGHTLY AND SAY SIGN .... SO I GET PAID....

I do not take a situation like this lightly

Reply by Poppy on 12/8/06 1:26pm
Msg #164816

DD, that's a bit much... I'm not a fan of CW's id and have

noted that in the past.
However I don't fault DD or think she and other like her are the downfall of the mortgage industry.
She and others have studied the handbook and concluded something different. Perhaps it's a matter of what each individual considers difficult or impossible.
The email CAL got from the SOS doesn't even seem to agree. Just because someone see's it differently doesn't make them careless or the downfall of the profession. Sounds like Zee thought this out very carefully and came to a different conclusion.
Nothing more, nothing less.
If Zee's interpretation is correct or if the SOS interpretation is correct... Then many of us turn down valid request for notarization and that is also against the law...

I think we should be a little more careful before we throw insults out....

Reply by ZeeCA on 12/8/06 8:26am
Msg #164747

you are assuming I did not speak the language n/m

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 12/8/06 8:58am
Msg #164755

Cali is absolutely 100% correct

The borrower had ID on the way so he obviously was able to go and get one. He also had an old ID. Both of these situations are reasons as stated in the CA handbook that the use of CW is not allowable.

You can disagree with Cali all you want but you can not disagree with CA State Notarial law. You need to know those laws cold. It does not matter what any coleague, friend, instructor. or SOS employee tells you; if it goes against what is black and white in CA State Notarial law then they are flat out wrong.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 12/8/06 10:28am
Msg #164777

We can't "save the world" but we CAN take steps to

protect each other as consumers. SS cards are a dime a dozen, means zip. When an illegal obtains work and has a SS, nothing happens to that person UNLESS they happen to get laid off. That starts the chain of investigation and only THEN are they found out....by that time they're on to another employer. Zee was just too eager to get the ink on the docs and in her/his defense perhaps everything will turn out just fine. If it doesn't everyone pays in the long run, lenders never really take a hit...they spread it out over everyone else. Bottom line we all pay for illegal transactions with higher rates. What I don't understand is IF a valid DL was "in the mail", why not adjourn until it's received? It's sorta like the SS that tell SA's "the check is in the mail". No one runs out and spends the money until the hard copy is in our hands, an ounce of prevention would probably have been more prudent. Now Zee will have a heck of a time if it happens again with the same lender and she/he refuses the ID, once you set your pattern it's tough to back away from the next one. How did the song go? "The lure of easy money"?

Reply by John_NorCal on 12/8/06 1:41pm
Msg #164819

No, Cali of not 100% correct.....

he may be adamant in his non use of credible witnesses and he is definitely right about protecting the lenders interest, but the problem lies in the writing of the statute. The code states that under the circumstances it is difficult or impossible to obtain ID. At the time of notarization is it possible to go into another room or nearby area to get ID? I believe it's the present circumstance that dictates how the notarization should be handled and the notary has to be diligent in acting in good faith, making reasonable judgements and documenting their actions.

Reply by BrendaTx on 12/8/06 7:29pm
Msg #164898

Joe, et al...this brings up a question in my mind...

**Oh boy no ID, primary borrower speaks very little english, wants to borrow half a million dollars, just needs a Notary to complete the deal. I **

Last time I borrowed mortgage money, the lender required my driver's license, got a copy of it, and got a copy of my SS card, too.

Now, will someone explain to me how in CA a lender doesn't know that the people have expired driver's licenses?

I am very curious about this. How do people get from the beginning of the loan process to the end of it without a driver's license or valid ID? This drives me nuts. How is this happening?

Reply by Amalia Contreras on 12/8/06 1:51pm
Msg #164824

Zee I have been in the same situation BUT did you ask to see his MATRICULA, I understand that this document is acceptable. If NO, you dont sign

Reply by faceynotary on 12/8/06 2:20pm
Msg #164829

Metricula if signer was Mexican, but still raises issues.

Not the most secure document.

http://www.campaignsitebuilder.com/templates/displayfiles/tmpl14.asp?SiteID=99&PageID=493&Trial=false
http://www.theamericanresistance.com/issues/matricula_id_card.html
http://www.house.gov/garymiller/MatriculaConsularCardsMythandFacts.html


Other countries have their own form of matriculas... but the metircula is mostly used my Mexicans.

Reply by faceynotary on 12/8/06 2:28pm
Msg #164832

I guess I Cedular would be compartive to Matricular n/m

Reply by Amalia Contreras on 12/8/06 2:29pm
Msg #164834

Re: Metricula if signer was Mexican, but still raises issues.

Thank you very much, I love this forum ,

Reply by faceynotary on 12/8/06 2:33pm
Msg #164835

Re: Metricula if signer was Mexican, but still raises issues.

No problem... This forum is beginning to grow on me. Ms. Amalia.. before I wasn't sure but I've learned so much here...

Reply by Amalia Contreras on 12/8/06 2:39pm
Msg #164836

Re: Metricula if signer was Mexican, but still raises issues.

Most of my signings I deal alot with with spanish speaking Borrowers. the website you send are going to be very helpful. Have a wonderful day. Gracias

Reply by faceynotary on 12/8/06 2:48pm
Msg #164839

Re: Metricula if signer was Mexican, but still raises issues.

No problema Senorita Amalia.

De nada!

Reply by Amalia Contreras on 12/8/06 2:57pm
Msg #164840

Re: Metricula if signer was Mexican, but still raises issues.

Senora

Reply by faceynotary on 12/8/06 3:04pm
Msg #164841

Re: Metricula if signer was Mexican, but still raises issues.

perdon- "Senora" (smile) Contreras.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 12/8/06 10:04pm
Msg #164928

I read this whole thread

and (as always on CW issues, side securely on Cali's side).

All of you that need refresher course on CW's, refer to the STRICT guidelines in the handbook.

Or take the easy road....and expect those attorney calls in the future. They are bound to happen.

At the bottom of your resources? Do call the Notary Doc. They know best.