Posted by Rhonda Skansi on 12/12/06 7:16pm
Msg #165463
please tell me....
I've been through about 3 situations regarding the same issue.... Non Borrowing Spouses! I've assumed that one should sign per Wa State and docs had to be redrawn and I go out for free next time. I've not had NBS sign because wasn't told to and then was lectured that I should have known to even though not told. This weekend went to signing for Title Co. and all docs just have the borrower (wife) on everything. We contemplate having nbs husband sign Deed and few other docs per WA State, but did not because it wasn't part of my instructions and I asked borrower if anyone told her that he needed to sign and she said "NO" so I do not. I get call from Title that hubby was suppose to sign and now she's faxing me QCD and Deed to get signed. What's your opinion??????
| Reply by PL on 12/12/06 7:36pm
Msg #165464
I follow the instructions, but if I see a spouse listed on the instructions or when I call to confirm and I get the spouse on the phone, I do call the TC and ask. If they state, just as written, I ask for that to be emailed and I do as instructed. I too have run into this and always get "in California, blah,blah" I state we are not in California and then they pay to fix it.
To just go out on your own and have them sign, might put you in jeopardy of UPL. jmho
| Reply by SueW/Tn on 12/12/06 7:48pm
Msg #165466
I follow PL's thought process. To do what you KNOW is right can get you in trouble with the UPL police. It's a catch 22 but as PL states, go over it with Title, get a hard copy of how they want you to handle that situation SHOULD it come up...and you're covered even if you don't need it.
| Reply by Rhonda Skansi on 12/12/06 7:55pm
Msg #165469
alright... cover your butt before an issue arises. good advise
| Reply by Rhonda Skansi on 12/12/06 7:48pm
Msg #165467
PL of WA....in the last situation....
if you did not know about husband until arriving at door and your instructions didn't say anything about him, then you would have done just what I did (or didn't) ? So Title is overnighting the original deed for him to sign and e-mail a QCD for her to sign. How would you charge accordingly?
| Reply by PL on 12/12/06 10:31pm
Msg #165493
Re: PL of WA....in the last situation....
2 weeks ago I walked away, because it got very hot between the 2 parties, when one thought the other was doing them wrong. When in reality, the TC did both of them wrong, by thinking that it wasn't a big deal in Washington if both were listed on the DOT. Well it ended up a big deal and it wasn't pretty.
My policy now is to casually ask will your spouse be there and that makes sure I don't waste the time, with the above scenario. Good luck
| Reply by cara on 12/12/06 8:21pm
Msg #165473
I am in CA where the non-borrowing spouse must sign (community property state). However, it is up to the lender who prepares the docs to provide required instructions. If documents do not instruct regarding a non-borrowing spouse, I do not inquire. (Lots of people refer to partners as “spouses“whether legally married or not.) If the loan package does not include instructions regarding a non-borrowing spouse and there turns out to be such a person, then it is their mistake. Notary should get paid a separate fee to go out and fix the problem (if so requested). If non-borrowing spouse instructions are included in the package and notary overlooks them, then notary is obligated to go out and fix the problem without additional payment.
| Reply by Larry/Ca on 12/12/06 9:27pm
Msg #165481
I agree with cara here....
I am not an attorney, but was once in a fantasy football league with one, and it seems to me that when people say that the non-borrowing spouse must sign whatever docs, that they assume by community property laws the spouse has a financial interest in the property. There are ordinary circumstances, pre-nups, signed grant deeds, whatever that would supersede this financial interest. I have called LO/Title to give a heads-up to avoid problems and have felt foolish because they made it clear to me that this was their job and if the spouse needed to sign they would have put their name on the docs. Never again, if they make the mistake they can pay to fix it. I will do my job.
always a fool, Larry
| Reply by Sharon Taylor on 12/13/06 12:06am
Msg #165512
TN is a partial homestead state, so I always have NBS sign
certain documents as it is standard that the Non-Borrowing Spouse MUST sign at least these documents: DOT, Riders to DOT, TIL, RTC, Itemization. I also have the NBS sign the Correction Agreement since obviously if any of the other documents signed by the NBS require correction of minor typographical or clerical errors, Title will need the NBS' permission to do so. If the NBS' name is not on those documents, I always have him/her sign them anyway since I KNOW those are required docs. There may be other docs that Title wants signed by the NBS, but unless they have his/her name on those docs or have them listed in the instructions, I have no way of knowing, so nothing else gets signed. And yes I call Title or the Signing Agency or the Loan Officer (whoever is available at that hour) to let them know and receive their permission/approval. Too often, docs arrive at the last minute or late, and there's barely time to print and run to the closing, although I do try to take a quick check of the docs as they come off the printer. If no one is available to give permission, I still have those docs signed by the NBS since I know that is TN requirement.
You really should know the basics of whether or not your state is a homestead state, partial homestead state or non-homestead state, and which docs a NBS must sign, if any, in your particular state. That's NOT UPL, it's common sense.
| Reply by Sharon Taylor on 12/13/06 12:19am
Msg #165516
Clarification of TN requirements
I have been told by title companies and an attorney that I worked with that it doesn't matter in TN if the NBS is not on the property title, has quitclaimed his/her interest to the borrower, if the borrower owned the property separately prior to marriage, or whatever. The law apparently states (I've been told) that a spouse has a vested interest (homestead rights) in the marital real property up to X dollars and therefore must give consent to whatever is done with the property. It is the fact of the marriage that establishes the NBS rights in the property, not whose name is or is not on the property title, I was told.
| Reply by Larry/Ca on 12/13/06 1:10am
Msg #165527
The last time I called...
because borrower was married and not on any docs, I was told that borrower was sole person vested and NBS did not need to sign for that reason. Perhaps someone like TitleGal will speak to this for California.
Larry
| Reply by Kate/CA on 12/13/06 1:51am
Msg #165532
Re: The last time I called...
When the title shows married and sole and separate property, the other spouse has already signed away their rights.
| Reply by Larry/Ca on 12/13/06 12:57am
Msg #165524
My take is that vesting....
tells all, and i am in a community property state, if it were vested as sole and separate I wouldn't be much concerned about signing the NBS. I am not an overly important person beyond my role as notary.
Larry
| Reply by Nancy Korb on 12/13/06 1:26am
Msg #165528
Re: TN is a partial homestead state, so I always have NBS sign
It seems to me that we are not supposed to know...or at least we are not supposed to direct. That is practicing law, is it not? It is the job of the Title company to DIRECT us where things are to be signed. We're there to have it signed where they direct us to have it signed and to notarize. That is our job. Anything else is against the law for us to do. We are notaries, not attorneys.
| Reply by Nancy Korb on 12/13/06 1:26am
Msg #165529
Re: TN is a partial homestead state, so I always have NBS sign
It seems to me that we are not supposed to know...or at least we are not supposed to direct. That is practicing law, is it not? It is the job of the Title company to DIRECT us where things are to be signed. We're there to have it signed where they direct us to have it signed and to notarize. That is our job. Anything else is against the law for us to do. We are notaries, not attorneys.
| Reply by ReneeK_MI on 12/13/06 3:03am
Msg #165535
uPl, NBS, and the games we play ...
uPl is "unlicensed PRACTICE of law", key word: practice. You can learn the laws & know the laws without PRACTICING law, and that is IMHO just one more way to out-shine your competition in this HIGHLY competitive market.
Alternatively, you can decide it's 'not your job' and if docs are wrong, goodie - maybe you'll snag a return trip to do it the right way. Same as the waitress who says "Sorry, this isn't my table." It's perhaps not the most successful way of building a solid relationship with clients who WANT to rely on you, trust you, and pay you for your expertise.
You have to keep in mind that many times Title NEVER SEES the loan docs until after you've had them signed - you're then given the OPPORTUNITY to provide some QC. Is it your "job"? Depends on what you want. You want to shine, seize every chance to illustrate WHY they should call you first, show them WHY you are "the best"? Maybe that's just not what you want, and if not - then fine, you're not wrong, it isn't "your job" and it isn't your hands typing the documents and no, you're not a lawyer.
If you WANT to shine - learn your laws, read the statutes, get to know a LOCAL title attorney who can go over the fine points until you feel confident about what your state protocol is. Then - learn to play the game ...
Here's the game - Title/escrow officers (and most people!) don't feel all warm and fuzzy about being TOLD what's right/wrong/legal/whatever. You have to approach things in a more light-handed, "head's up" kind of way. THIS avoids the whole UPL issue, as well.
I know MI laws regarding Non-B title holders. MANY times, the docs aren't showing the NBS - I ALWAYS give Title a "Head's up" in this manner "Hey - just a head's up, NBS isn't shown on docs, did you want them hand-revised or just signed 'as is'?" This way - you're putting them in the driver's seat, but giving them a much-appreciated chance to have it closed once, and closed correctly.
| Reply by Ndwa on 12/13/06 6:15am
Msg #165538
Heads up...Exactly Renee
Hello EO, thought I'd let you know that NOBS name isn't anywhere on docs. While I'm unable to get a hold of you or, I know it maybe take sometimes for you to get back to me. Until then, I'm going to cover both bases by asking NOBS and BRW sign together on a separate form.
10/10 times the NBS is required to sign security docs in WA (community property) if they confirm their marital status.
| Reply by Ernest Adams on 12/13/06 8:05am
Msg #165548
I'm with ReneeK!
I NEVER tell. I always ASK. Title usually catches on pretty quickly that I'm playing dumb; if they don't seen to be getting the picture, I say "Of course I can't give you legal advice because I'm not an attorney, but in the past ...."
| Reply by SueW/Tn on 12/13/06 9:04am
Msg #165558
Re: I'm with ReneeK!
I'm also in Renee's court, thought I made that fairly clear in my above post. I always ask during appointment confirmation "IF there is a Mr./Mrs. Smith I will need a copy of her/his DL also" and it's normally at this time I will here "nope, no Mrs./Mr. here". In my state NBS doesn't have to sign if the home was purchased prior to marriage in spouse's name, IF it's an inheritance, etc. and that just isn't info I'm privy to and frankly don't/won't ask about. Once I've notified Title about the marital status, that's it for me...I consider that my common sense stance. And bottom line? I've learned it's entirely up to Title what they want to do, if they chose wrong....someone goes back. I signed a close friend of 10 years a few months ago, knew his history inside out. He purchased home 3 years prior to marriage, he and Mrs. had rock solid pre-nup drawn up...common sense said everything was in place. Lender REQUIRED NBS to sign! He went to his attorney, she went to hers....nothing to be done, was a requirement of the lender (one that always has those splits, fax backs, wait for authorization etc). Our job isn't to make a final determination but to follow Title's requirements, to alert Title about any irregularities to help them arrive at proper instructions and to follow said instructions.
| Reply by VickiWA on 12/13/06 7:43am
Msg #165547
Hi Rhonda, As per instructions I have had NBS sign and sometimes NBS does not sign. I think in the situation where the NBS did not sign the property was her inheritance and was part of an estate situation. I also got a call to go to a home in my neighborhood and have a few docs signed by a NBS on a loan that had funded. The NBS name was not printed on the docs. I did not do the original signing. The hiring party said that we should always have the NBS sign in our state. But it seems this is not always true. This is confusing. I like the plan to give title a heads up and then get their feedback. I feel your frustration.
Happy Holidays to you and your family.
| Reply by Rhonda Skansi on 12/13/06 11:33am
Msg #165595
Andy.....
I was laying in bed last night and thought of that. That I will have 2 versions....1with both signed and 1 with only borrower (those particular docs). And I wake up to your post yeah
| Reply by Rhonda Skansi on 12/13/06 11:34am
Msg #165596
Vicki.... Happy holidays to you too! n/m
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