Posted by Pamela on 2/10/06 1:39am
Msg #95986

Opinions Please!!!

Someone was told me that behind each real property transaction (in most states) there is a notary. That nothing can be bought. sold or transferred without a notary being involved. That Real Estate Brokers, Lenders, Appraisers, Escrow Officers and so forth, cannot finalized a transaction, without a notary.

With that said, Why is the notary at the end of the pay scale? Why aren't notaries given the same respect as a Real Estate Broker or Mortgage Banker? If a Broker can make $30,000 off a closing, why does the signing agent only receive $125.00 for a loan package?
If the Escrow Officer receives $1,500 at the end of escrow, why does the notary only receive $ 85.00 for completing e-docs? These are just examples, but if all participants in a real estate transaction are important (and everything is centered around the notary seal) why aren't notaries paid much more? Notaries/Signing Agents do just as much work (as their counterparts), yet there are signing companies wanting to pay only $40.00!

In my opinion, it just doesn't make sense!

Do notaries (signing agents) have lobbyists? If not, why not?

I'm new and still learning, but in my opinion it's unfair!

Pam

Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/10/06 2:02am
Msg #95990

Short answer - while it can't be completed without us, our part of the total transaction is fairly small. It's *not* centered around the notary seal, that's just one necessary component to the entire process. I think you're wrong about SAs doing just as much work as their counterparts, though. The other parts are much more complex and time consuming than what we do. That doesn't mean I would do an edoc pkg for $85, but that's based on different reasoning that's been discussed here extensively - not because of "importance" or lack thereof. Others with personal experience in the other disciplines you mention could probably shed more light on this.

Reply by Nd_WA on 2/10/06 2:33am
Msg #95993

"Notaries/Signing Agents do just as much work (as their counterparts), yet there are signing companies wanting to pay only $40.00!"

Not true! Why can't you be one of those big money makers instead of a NSA? The only answer to your argument is the contribution of TIME and the credential one holds. Imagine Realtor and LO spending countless hours to put a deal together and come out empty handed because the buyer/seller/borrower backed out in the end.

Signing services can pay what ever fee they want, but to accept or not is a business decision that only you can decide.

Reply by Pamela on 2/10/06 8:31am
Msg #96004

As a Realtor (new), I just had an escrow which fell through (due to Escrow Officer's delay. . .loan documents expired. . .Buyers chose not to sign new docs. . .). In comparison, I still think that notaries are not paid their worth!

It's Very time consuming and V-E-R-Y expensive to be a Realtor.

It's Very time consuming (although not as expensive) to be a signing agent.

Pam

Reply by Renee Kovacs on 2/10/06 4:10am
Msg #95994

Pam, I don't think any of your numbers or assumptions are very realistic. Especially comparing what we do to just about any other part of the Machine - I find this rather small part to be a walk in the park compared to any other part. In fact, thinking about it - even the appraisers are potentially making less than we (potentially) are, if you factor in time/effort for each appraisal. Consider that in respect to the training required to become an appraiser!

As for R.E. agents and Mtg. brokers - first, you have to remember that what you see on the HUD doesn't make it into their pockets 'un-cut'; and while it's possible for them to make tons of money ... the majority of them don't. They make more per loan than us, but they don't generally close a whole lot each month. (Btw, not sure where/how you came up with 1500 for an escrow officer's slice of the pie?! Must be including the policy premiums, and that would be in error.)

I got into this to ESCAPE the horrendous stress & work hours of being inside The Machine, and would never begin to compare what I do now with what any of the other parts do. However - bear in mind that we are all free to become any part we wish to become.

You sense of unfairness might come from the Visions of Gold portrayed by tv commercials, and I agree THAT is unfair. But the potential to make a fair living doing this does exist - you have to hustle, market, learn more every day, be committed to building your business and reputation, have a plan and a vision. =)

Reply by Sherry Harrington on 2/10/06 6:19am
Msg #95996

Pam, I'm new also but I have already learned from observation and following up with an associate that the notaries themselves are setting the reimbursement rates low in order to receive the work. I follow the NSA guidelines in setting my price and hope to gain enough experience within a year to increase my price. The signing agencies do try to set lower prices, but it's up to you to accept or decline their offer.

Reply by Shane_OH on 2/10/06 7:41am
Msg #95997

NSA Guidelines?!!!

If you are referring to the National Notary Association NSA Guidelines for setting the price, you are undercharging. Even if you are new.

Just because you are new, doesn't mean you charge less.... Just go over your package more in detail. Once you start charging low fees, its hard to change them on a SS/TC and have them not stop using you, remember that.

Their price schedule is ridiculous. Any experienced NSA will tell you that the minimum you should be charging is $75-100 per closing.

Reply by lulu on 2/10/06 3:01pm
Msg #96135

Yes it is the SA's choice to accept or decline if the fee is too low. I also agreed to a lesser fee when I started to get some experience under my belt. I believe the key here is a collectiveness among notaries. If no notary will accept a signing for $40 then they will have to pay more to get the loan signed. When I first started I too researched on the net to see what the going price was and wouldn't accept anything lower than that. If they can find someone to accept a low price that SA is going to have a five star rating with them it hurts that SA as well as everyone else.

Reply by Anonymous on 2/10/06 8:13am
Msg #96001

*** Why is the notary at the end of the pay scale? Why aren't notaries given the same respect as a Real Estate Broker or Mortgage Banker? If a Broker can make $30,000 off a closing, why does the signing agent only receive $125.00 for a loan package? ***

To put it into perspective:

How much training is required to be a signing agent?
How much training is required to be a real estate broker?

How much did you pay for your notary commission?
How much does it cost to get a real estate broker's license?

How much work does a signing agent do in a real estate transaction?
How much work does a real estate broker do?

What happens to that loan package after you send it back to the lender?

The wheels keep turning long after you have put your notary stamp away.

If you want a bigger piece of the pie, then get more involved in the transaction.

Reply by Pamela on 2/10/06 8:22am
Msg #96003

I am also a Realtor (new). Just had an escrow which fell through (due to Escrow Officer's tardiness in letting loan doc's expire. . .buyers decided not to sign new docs. . .). Still, notaries are not paid what they are worth!

Pam

Reply by Janlee_MI on 2/10/06 8:44am
Msg #96007

Realtor let the contract expire.

Pam, the escrow office didn't let the contract expire. Escrow agents don't worry about contracts they were about getting them closed. The contract is Realtor job. Being a Realtor and a Title Person. Now a SA I can tell you that this is a very small piece. Most Title Companies employees, Realtor, and Bankers are Notaries.

Reply by Pamela on 2/10/06 9:24am
Msg #96019

Janlee Re: Realtor let the contract expire.

This was a 45 day escrow (turned into 60+ days). I (represented the sellers) had all the required documents, disclosures, reports etc. . . completed and signed by the sellers, by the middle of the second week. Both Brokers (25+ and 30+ years real estate experience) told me that everything was fine. The Escrow Officer (20 years escrow experience) told me that everything was fine. That we were just waiting for the buyers agent to complete her part. . . (Unfortunately, this proved to be a major headache as the buyers' agent began to stall. I noticed that later in the month, she had just listed a similar type property (in a "better" area, which I believe she wanted to sell to these same people. . .).

Escrow was supposed to finally close on a certain Friday (by then we were two weeks over the original due date). The buyers finally signed the remainder of the paperwork on a Monday. The Escrow Officer called me that Wednesday afternoon, to explain that city permits were required (this was my first time hearing this) and that the loan documents would expire in two days!!!

The sellers were not able to meet with me until Thursday night, to sign the required forms. I walked the documents through (to the city that) Friday and paid (out-of-my-own pocket). The permits were ready on Tuesday. The Escrow Office said "Perfect!" The lender prepared new loan documents! Escrow said that all was well! However,the buyers refused to sign! Wherefore, escrow fell through! To say that the sellers were upset, would be an understatement!

Experience agents (in the office) informed me that, the Escrow Officer should have asked the lender to extend the expiration of the documents and/or could have still closed escrow although the permits were still "pending"!

Pam

Reply by Shane_OH on 2/10/06 9:34am
Msg #96023

Re: Janlee Re: Realtor let the contract expire.

Deals fall thru, anyone in the industry for any length of time will recognize that.

The fact that the buyers refused to sign, has nothing to do with extending the expiration of the documents and/or rate lock. They obviously, refused to sign for a reason.

Maybe they found another property, maybe they couldn't get the loan product they were expecting, maybe maybe maybe maybe...

Reply by Pamela on 2/10/06 9:44am
Msg #96026

Shane Re: Janlee Re: Realtor let the contract expire.

The Buyers signed the original loan documents. It's my understanding, that the Escrow Officer could have closed escrow with the same documents (instead of having new ones redrawn), if she had telephoned/contacted the lender for an extension.

Pam

Reply by Janlee_MI on 2/10/06 9:50am
Msg #96030

Re: Shane Re: Janlee Re: Realtor let the contract expire.

Well then if that the case. Borrower changed there mind and got cold feet. Why else would they not sign again. I still don't see it as the Escrow person fault.

Reply by Pamela on 2/10/06 11:31am
Msg #96076

Reply Janlee Re: Realtor let the contract expire.

Janlee,

The reasons told to me, by the experienced agents, is that it is the Escrow Officers fault because:

1.) She has 20 years in the business. She should have known that this particular city required permits, in the very beginning of this long escrow (not wait two days before expiration of the loan papers). (Broker also stated the same.)

2.) She could have still closed escrow on time, with the current signed loan docs., even though the permits were "pending".

3.) She could/should have telephoned the lender to ask for an extension on the current signed loan documents without having the buyers sign new loan papers. And still closed escrow that Friday. (Broker stated the same.)

I also say that it is the Brokers fault too.

These Realtors have hundreds (if not thousands) of transaction completed (since the 1960's, 1970's, and 1980's ) yet when my documents were reviewed, I was told that everything was fine.

There is a list of cities (in our office) which states which ones require permits. This particular city was not listed.

When questioned about it, one of the Brokers said "Oh, it's not? Must be an oversight!"

The experienced agents gave me the name of an escrow company which specializes in that city. And in the future, to always check with building and safety (first)!

Pam

Reply by Rick_NY on 2/10/06 9:19am
Msg #96016

"letting loan doc's expire. ." [Re: Opinions Please!!!

Isn't it the loan officer's job to see to it a deal closes before any loan docs or commitment gets stale? The r/e agent should also have a copy of the loan commitment and keep on top of it.

It seems to me, Pam, you are blaming everyone but yourself for your deal falling through. Get over yourself and do your job if you want a big pay check.

=============================================
I am also a Realtor (new). Just had an escrow which fell through (due to Escrow Officer's tardiness in letting loan doc's expire. . .buyers decided not to sign new docs. . .). Still, notaries are not paid what they are worth!

Pam

Reply by Pamela on 2/10/06 9:39am
Msg #96024

Rick "letting loan doc's expire. ." [Re: Opinions Please!!!

The point isn't my wanting a big paycheck. . .

The point is that notaries are not paid for what they are worth!


Pam

Reply by Rick_NY on 2/10/06 9:58am
Msg #96032

Re: Rick "letting loan doc's expire. ." [Re: Opinions Please!!!

That only happens to those who let it happen.

Most of us would be happy to do a signing, excluding edocs, for $125.00. Today I am doing a first and equity together for $200.00 with overnight docs. I will drive 20 minutes each way.

> The point is that notaries are not paid for what they are worth!

Reply by Anonymous on 2/10/06 1:02pm
Msg #96101

Been in the business 7 years, only met three loan officers that knew what the docs were and what they ment. I have also met plenty of real estate agents that didn't understand any of the closing process. I can't tell you how many times realtors and loan officers have told people not to buy title insurance which I feel is not in their clients best interest. They have more training/education perhaps but not necessarily as much knowledge about the closing process. Their also a pain in the a** to work with 90% of the time.

Reply by Rick_NY on 2/10/06 9:05am
Msg #96014

Pamela, your naivete is showing ---

You might also say that behind every successful brain surgery there is an orderly who had to clean up the operating room before the procedure could take place.

So why should the neurosurgeon make a fat six or seven-figure income and the orderly only makes $30,000 a year?

It has to do with the barriers to entry into the profession, education required, the talent of the practitioner, time involved in performing the work and perhaps, even for M.D.s, connections in the community.

A capable r/e broker or mortgage banker is worth every penny he or she earns. They also turn down transactions that don't correspond with their income requirements, as should the experienced and proficient NSA.

Sorry, I can't believe it was even necessary for you to ask the question.

Reply by MB_AZ on 2/10/06 9:41am
Msg #96025

Rick_NY You had a great analogy

"You might also say that behind every successful brain surgery there is an orderly who had to clean up the operating room before the procedure could take place." LOL

Reply by Janlee_MI on 2/10/06 9:48am
Msg #96028

The Process you will learn Experince will help.

Now that you have this happen you will not let it happen again. I am sorry that you had it a happen but it is the Realtors Fault. The Escrow person might not of even know there were permits needed until the day she got the package. The problem is you are too New to know the process. You will learn. And the way you learn is by mistakes. Escrow Officers normally don't get the information from the lender or the title side of the business 2 to 3 days ahead of time.

L

Reply by Pamela on 2/10/06 10:11am
Msg #96035

Janlee Re: The Process you will learn Experince will help.

Thank You for your words of encouragement!

I am sorry! I keep focusing on the Escrow Officer, but both of my BROKERS should have told me (as well)! When a transaction is opened, the Senior and Managing Brokers review the transactions on a weekly basics. This is a major company and the brokers have decades of experience. When my files were reviewed, I was informed that everything was fine, and that I did a Great job!

When I first opened escrow, I informed the officer that I was new to the business and still learning. She said not to worry, That she had 20 years of experience (in all types of real estate transactions) and not to worry! I talked to her on a weekly basics and was still told that everything was going well!

Yes! This has been a learning experience. As a results, I've decided to focus on loan signings (full time) due to the steady income (steady as compared to a Real Estate Agent) and do sales part time. I also want to be trained as a loan officer.

Thanks Again,

Pam

Reply by Anonymous on 2/10/06 12:51pm
Msg #96090

I always say that we have one of the most important jobs but are paid the least for it. You can close thirty deals for one loan officer/title company and make both thousands of dollars but the minute one loan goes bad they blame the notary. If the loan goes down they want to negotiate your pay when you had nothing to do with the fact that the loan officer lied about closing cost and or gave them an arm when they wanted a fixed but they still think you should lower your fee even though you did your job, spent your gas money, money for ink and paper. They never say thanks for all of the thousands of dollars you make them but they will always complain the minute a deal goes down. We should all raise are fees so that we won't have those low ballers out their trying to get us to lower it. If we are willing to spend $20 in gas, $5-$10 in paper and sometimes up to 3-4 hours driving round trip for $50 then they will only pay what they have to. I stopped taking assignments that are far away because I won't work for four hours for $10. McDonald's pays more than that. I would rather have the time off untill the end of the month when they get desperate and willing to pay.