Posted by Linda A. Northey on 1/9/06 6:28pm
Msg #87192

Doc Date -vs- Signing Date

Question: Docs are dated 01/06/06; customers sign (and I notarize) on 12/31/05. On 01/09/06 I get a call from SS indicating that the entire package needs to be re-signed because "docs can't be signed BEFORE print date". Hmmmm. I've been a Closing Agent for 10+ years and have never heard of this before. Feedback, please.

Reply by Janlee_MI on 1/9/06 6:37pm
Msg #87198

Your notary date must be the same date as the documents or you needed to change the date on each of the document to show the correct date. The recorder will not accept the Mortgage with the dates being different. Because it can be looked at they signed something that didn't exsit on that date.

Recorders are very picky people. I have them turn docs away if they are even 1/32 off the margin. It is lender who should of changed the date. But as closers we should always look at dates.

Hope this helps.

Reply by Becca_FL on 1/9/06 6:49pm
Msg #87205

Janlee_MI

>>>Your notary date must be the same date as the documents or you needed to change the date on each of the document to show the correct date.<<<

Huh?

What do you do with HELOCS that are not date sensitive? IMO, you should never change any date on docs unless instructed to do so by the lender or TC. Maybe it's a MI thing, but here in Florida, (and from what I can remember CA too) the date on the 1st page of the Mtg. does not have to match the Ack date.

Reply by Janlee_MI on 1/9/06 7:03pm
Msg #87212

Re: Janlee_MI

Becca, I have been a Title Agent for over 10 years in 5 different states. I don't know about Fl or Calf. But in Indiana, Illinois, Ohio, Wisconson and even Michigan. Recorders always look at the date of the document to make sure they match when they are signed. Normally the Lender prints docs so that the date they are signed. I have always changed the documents, because that difference between be a Closing Agent and a Signing Agent.


And yes you should call the lender first. But sometimes you can't and are you not going to get the docs signed if you know what to do.
.

Reply by Becca_FL on 1/9/06 7:25pm
Msg #87219

Re: Janlee_MI

>>>because that difference between be a Closing Agent and a Signing Agent.<<<

Well Janlee, nothing to get your panties in a wad about. I too have been a Closing Agent/Title Agent/Escrow Officer (call it what you will) for an atty. and a couple of TCs and that is exactly why I DO NOT change anything on docs until I speak with someone. A very smart lady that has been in this business for sometime now gave me excellent advice that I still follow today. As a (lowly) SA you need to take off your Title hat and not try to fix everything yourself.

I'm glad you are so proud of your self proclaimed title. Just remember, everytime you get a call for a job the company calling is looking for a Signing Agent.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 1/9/06 9:21pm
Msg #87248

Becca, you are dead right.

***As a (lowly) SA you need to take off your Title hat and not try to fix everything yourself.***

Truer advice has never been spoken. I can't tell you the struggles I've had in that regard. You are the SIGNING AGENT, only....lowly or not. No LO or EO will appreciate your experience or your 'advice', trust me.

Been there, done that, and I won't go there again.

Reply by Becca_FL on 1/9/06 9:26pm
Msg #87249

No TitleGal - Sylvia was right :)..................n/m

Reply by TitleGalCA on 1/9/06 8:28pm
Msg #87233

Re: Janlee_MI..

One golden rule....A notary is not responsible for the contents of a document including the date. For every California Recorder I've ever dealt with, they do not look at the date of the document and compare it to the acknowledgment date.

It's the lender that has concerns about the dates. I would not change a doc date, ever, without direction from the LO, and not because I questioned it.

To say a document doesn't "exist" because the date is forward from the ack date contradicts the very real document in hand.

Janlee has title experience in the states she mentioned, and I don't. Not refuting it - it just surprised me, alot.

Reply by O/CNotary on 1/9/06 6:50pm
Msg #87206

Not true! I have had a very reputable lender date the docs

in the future of the signing. I questioned it at the time as wa told "no problem". Docs got recorded. There was a long thread abut this several months ago and those in the know stated it didnt matter if the docs were future dated.

Reply by O/CNotary on 1/9/06 6:51pm
Msg #87207

P.S. And the dates on the docs absolutley DO NOT have to

match the signing date. Where did you ever hear that one?

Reply by Julie Williams on 1/9/06 9:48pm
Msg #87254

Janlee, you are newer to the boards, to the best of my knowledge.

I was a settlement agent and worked for Macomb County Register of Deeds, as the "picky" recorder for 7 years.

Rejecting a document generates a lot more work and we county employees do not want more work. It was a pain in the a** to reject documents if I saw a pack come from Comerica or Huntington Bank, it went to the bottom of the stack. They were so bad and the funds never matched.

There is nothing in the MCL that states the date of the the document cannot be after the notarization date. This as you know, would fall under title work or a lender requirement.

Just an observation.............correct me if I'm wrong. ;)

Reply by CarolynCO on 1/10/06 7:43am
Msg #87296

Re: Your notary date must be the same date as the documents

Coming in late here, but this statement is NOT true. Notary date only reflects the date docs are signed.

Reply by Becca_FL on 1/9/06 6:43pm
Msg #87201

It really depends on the lender. Generally speaking, docs can not be signed before the creation date. I have only had one signing that had a future date on the docs. The loan was a commercial loan for a property in DC and the docs were dated for the disbursement date and not the signing date. When I contacted the TC they said the docs were correct and to go ahead with the signing.

Again, it depends on the lender.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 1/9/06 7:46pm
Msg #87225

I have done many loan packages later than the date printed without a problem. But before the date in this county wont work.

Reply by O/CNotary on 1/9/06 8:08pm
Msg #87227

Glenn, what county are you in? Never been a problem in O/C.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 1/9/06 8:19pm
Msg #87230

Re: Glenn, what county are you in? Never been a problem in O

San Bernardino.

Don't know if I posted clearly last time. . The loan docs can have a date earlier than the date I notarize, the not have a later date than I notarize. We have an anal county recorder. The way it was put to me was "How can you notarize a document that, by the dates on them, could not have been created yet?" Only ran into that once, and the once, it was rejected. But what do I know ..

Reply by TitleGalCA on 1/9/06 8:32pm
Msg #87236

Re: Glenn, what county are you in? Never been a problem in O

Glenn, I know what you mean - and have a lot of experience with the SB County recorder when I worked for the golden eagle downtown. They, IMO, go waaaaay past their responsibility as recording clerks. I had to challenge them on more than one occasion, as a TO.

They are quite wrong, but unless challenged, they enjoy their dictatorship.

My weapon of choice was the California Recorder's Handbook. Very handy when dealing with those ladies at the Recorder's office.

Reply by Janlee_MI on 1/9/06 8:43pm
Msg #87240

Re: Glenn, what county are you in? Never been a problem in O

Glenn, You stated they way I wanted to say it but I stated it wrong. Thanks. Docs can't be signed before they exist.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 1/9/06 9:09pm
Msg #87245

Re: Glenn, what county are you in? Never been a problem in O

If docs are dated for tomorrow but arrive by Fedex today, does that mean they weren't delivered becasue they don't exist? If I have a piece of paper in my hand, by George, it exists, regardless of what's written on it.

Reply by Brad_Ca on 1/9/06 8:46pm
Msg #87241

California Recorder's Handbook

Where might one obtain said handbook? I would like to add it to my Notary Library.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 1/9/06 9:03pm
Msg #87244

Re: California Recorder's Handbook

A division of the State of CA. I'll double-check tomorrow at my office, and post back.

I'm not sure that it's something available to the general public, but I'll find out. For me, it's required reading when I have a problem.

I have to say, SA's should be able to have any questions regarding recordability by the title company. If a doc can't record, it's THEIR (the TC's) problem not yours - no SA is expected to know what the local recorders office requires.

Still, I agree it's nice to have resources to be knowledgable.

Reply by Brad_Ca on 1/9/06 9:14pm
Msg #87246

Re: California Recorder's Handbook

Thank you. It would be a nice reference/resource to have at my disposal.

Reply by Janlee_MI on 1/9/06 8:47pm
Msg #87242

Title Girl, I agree with you.

You are right. They are supposed to record how presented but you know in real life that doesn't happen. They can be real pains. We had a really horrible one in Illinois.

Reply by Julie Williams on 1/9/06 10:01pm
Msg #87258

This will probably post in the wrong spot, but

as one of the "ladies" here in Michigan, we HAVE to follow the law regarding the recording requirements and if the document is missing an element WE CANNOT BREAK THE LAW AND LET IT RECORD!

For all the notaries out there that are so picky about sticking to notarial laws, (which we all should) how come everyone beats up the recorder for doing the same thing--following the law? If you are peeved enough, take it up with the county's corporation counsel, they are the ones that will defend the clerk if the law it not being followed.

It is not a dictatorship, at least here in my county. As I said above, it generated more work, and if the boss caught a document we recorded in error, we would be banished to the dusty book room--well I'm exagerrating here, the union wouldn't allow us to work beneath our classification, but we did get annoyed when the same title companies, lenders and lawyers' offices always brought in unrecordable instruments.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 1/9/06 10:12pm
Msg #87261

Julie

You and I can be on opposite sides in our day jobs. Obviously the Recorder's Office needs to stick to the law - sometimes we at the title company are thrilled when you reject a document that we've already said to the client "won't record". You validate us.

Yes, County Counsel is the one to take it up with, especially when one 'lady' decides to add more authority to her position than is required. It happens here..... doesn't it happen in Michigan?? Just like you validate the title company, you can also embarrass us with unreasonable requirements that aren't supported by policy, procedure or law (at least that's the way it is here in my County and also exists in San Bernardino County).

Not a bash, but the reasonable position your Recorder's office takes isn't always the same in other places. That is all I was trying to say.

Reply by Julie Williams on 1/9/06 10:23pm
Msg #87267

Re: Julie

As I said, there is absolutely no benefit to reject a document. If your recording clerks like to invent laws, that IS a problem. We don't like to invent new laws here; there are just too many liber and page numbers to adhere to!

Our title companies make sure the people sign as typed as we don't want any flack from the underwriter. None of this garbage form the borrower that "This is my legal signature" if it's on a recordable instrument.

So I agree that different states, counties may have different employees doing different things. However, I've been on these boards for 5 years and no one ever shares the side of the recorder--they always assume we like to be dictator-like.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 1/9/06 10:32pm
Msg #87269

Re: Julie

It does get old when you're always the bad guy.

To expand on what I said earlier about validation... I'll say that 95% of the time, the TC and Recorder's Office are in sync. If we're not, there's a serious lack of communication going on.

Those rogue recording clerks make us at the TC crazy. I'll bet just like the 'ladies' at your office, those TC's that can't figure out how to get a document of record makes you crazy.

Without these challenges, I suppose we'd take each other for granted.

Reply by Becca_FL on 1/9/06 10:50pm
Msg #87276

Re: Julie

I'm sending love your way! I dig the gals in my county recording department. Heck. I've even brought them cookies and brownies. My recording gals went to bat for me when a PA TC said that my county required witnesess on a mortgage.

I'm sure you do an excellent job and I thank you for that. Chin up girl!

Reply by Marlene_USNA on 1/10/06 9:44am
Msg #87305

Re: Julie

We support you, Julie, and thanks for the input from the recorders' side of issues. We tell our member notaries not to notarize post-dated docs - why risk problems with the documents down the line? We understand the LO/SA side of this issue, but advise caution before convenience in this particular case.

United States Notary Association
www.enotary.org

Reply by Jon on 1/9/06 9:55pm
Msg #87256

Re: Glenn, what county are you in? Never been a problem in O

I have signed several loans to be recorded in SanBerdu with dates after my notarization and never had one rejected. Ca law is very clear that notaries are not responsible for the content of the documents, including the date.

I agree with Paul below, if I have the document in my hands, it exists. It takes a total moron to say that because the date of a doc is after date on the notarization that it doesn't exist. Show the county recorder this message, dated Feb 2, 2009. Oops, I forgot, based on the date, this post doesn't exist!!!

Seriously, how ridiculous can a person be??? They should learn to use some common sense. I can create a document with any date I want. The date on the doc does not determine whether or not it exists. Whether or not it's legal is a different question altogether, but we as notaries, or SA, should not make that determination.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 1/9/06 10:12pm
Msg #87262

Re: Glenn, what county are you in? Never been a problem in O

Yeah, I know, but the fact remains, I had to take a new DOT to have it signed again. It was early on in my signing carreer because the old one is post-dated. The way it was put to me was "you would not take a check dated for tomorrow, would you?" Which is true. A posted-dated check is not valid until the day it is dated. I shrugged my shoulders took my beating and finished the job. It's impossible to argue with bureaucrats and not worth the time.

Reply by Jon on 1/9/06 10:21pm
Msg #87266

Re: Glenn, what county are you in? Never been a problem in O

Actually, a post-dated check is just as valid as any other check. I was told by my bank that they are required by law to honor a post-dated check, regardless of when it is cashed.

Reply by Janlee_MI on 1/9/06 10:25pm
Msg #87268

Title Girl

Ok. I have one question. If the Mortgage is dated before the Mortgage date and the Deed is signed on the date of Mortgage is it still a valid lien? (Just Kidding) I guess I need to stop thinking about Clearing Title and Issuing Policy on this board and just think like an Signing Agent.

Unfortually, I have had to fix to many mistakes so that I could clear title or issue a policy.
If you know what I mean.

Reply by Becca_FL on 1/9/06 10:38pm
Msg #87270

Re: Janlee

Many of us know what you mean, which is why in this field you can not think as an EO/TO. I can't tell you how many times I've done something that I know for fact would screw Title up, but had to do it because that's what the lender told me to do. I always get those requests backed up by an email or a fax so Title won't think I'm an idiot.

If you want to continue in this line of work, it's imparative that you take off the Title cap. SSs, lenders and TCs don't like know-it-all Notaries. They do however, like Notaries that are savy enough to point out descrepancies (sp).

JMHO and my working knowledge FWIW.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 1/9/06 10:45pm
Msg #87273

I'll back Becca here, Janlee

The TC hat must come off or you won't fit in to the mold that SS/TC want to see in a notary; all the while appreciating the occasional "big" problems.

It's a balancing act, done with tact and discretion. The better you do it, the more successful you'll be.

Words from the horse's mouth (Becca and me) are worthwhile. Good luck to you =)

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 1/9/06 11:13pm
Msg #87279

Re: Glenn, what county are you in? Never been a problem in O

Now that I know about. Worked in the business for 38 years. A post dated check is not legally valid until the day it is dated. I have seen too many get thrown out of court when my company tried to collect when an employee did not pay attention to the date on the check, cashed it, and then it bounced. Not a legal leg to stand on in California under those circumstances.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 1/10/06 7:48am
Msg #87298

Re: Glenn, what county are you in? Never been a problem in O

>>> The way it was put to me was "you would not take a check dated for tomorrow, would you?" Which is true. A posted-dated check is not valid until the day it is dated. <<<

I have had lenders and title companies actually instruct the borrowers to write a series of checks, all dated for some future date, to be included in the return package. Those checks are legal and binding as a check written yesterday. Just ask any banking official. A teller may or may not honor the check until the date written on the check, but dating something in the future does not make it invalid or illegal; just may or may not be acceptable to the recipient.

Reply by Marlene_USNA on 1/10/06 10:06am
Msg #87315

Re: Cashing a post-dated check

I don't know if that's a good analogy, PAW. The funds are there, the check is presented by the owner with proper ID and/or a customer account, why won't the bank honor the check? Is it bank policy or banking law that says "no way" to that?

If a document is recorded before its document date, which comes first in a (for example) property dispute over who did what when, the recorded date or the document date?

If the recorder refused to record the post-dated document, is it because of recording policy or recording law and which would hold up in court in a (for example) race-to-record property dispute (recorder refused to record post-dated document but accepted same-day dated document for same property that came in later from someone else)? -- It could happen! 8?)

And is it different for each and every county and/or state?

USNA still advises, don't create potential problems for your customer by notarizing a post-dated document.

Reply by PAW_Fl on 1/10/06 10:32am
Msg #87328

Re: Cashing a post-dated check

In regards to post-dated checks, the Uniform Commercial Code which most states have adopted in one form or another, permits banks to either pay or return a post dated check unless you have specifically notified the bank of the check, similar to a stop payment. Therefore, it appears that the decision is purely bank policy.

As for post-dated documents, you don't run into them too often, but I have seen them once in a while, especially with HELOCs and split-signings. I have also been told that Wells Fargo does this with their DIY loan refinancing. Whether or not a document is dated for sometime in the future is not a notary's concern. A notary either takes an acknowledgment or gives an oath on the date specified in the certificate of the act.

Reply by Marlene_USNA on 1/10/06 2:58pm
Msg #87388

Re: Cashing a post-dated check

Interesting. Thanks, Paul!

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 1/9/06 9:42pm
Msg #87253

Existence vs validity

To my mind, if docs are dated after date of signing
then , allthough they physically exist, they are not
yet valid of effective.
I have known a number of Title officers who raise an
exception if mortgage is dated after the date of execution,
but not if it is dated prior to the date of execution.
Similiar problem if the deed conveying the property to
the mortgagors is dated after the date of the mortgage.
Ok if dated before date of mortgage even if executed
later.
True, we are not responsible for the content of the docs,
but I was thanked big time last week for catching a mistake in
certain docs in a pkg (indluding the RTC) which were dated for
January 6 , 2005.
As professional NSAs we are a vital link
in the Quality Control process.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 1/9/06 10:19pm
Msg #87265

Re: Existence vs validity

Bob, this is OT, but why, when I read your posts are the margins so close together? Your posts always look like you don't have enough room. Just curious =)

BTW, for this TO, no exceptions to the mtg dated after the ack date. It's not important; the lien is still valid.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 1/9/06 11:32pm
Msg #87280

Re: Existence vs validity

Different strokes for different TOs,
but I do respect you opinions and
find that I generally agree with your posts.
I use the return key a lot becuase some
posters make their lines too long to read
without moving the horizontal arrow.
I do not want others to have the same problem.
Maybe I will try to make a lines a bit longer as other may have the same objection that you do.
(how was that?)
I keep my "view" setting at "larger".
When you become a more "mature" NSA, you
may learn about "mature" eye sight.
I also carry a small flashlight with me to
enable me to read IDs in dim light.
Picking up new glasses, this week. May help a bit.

Reply by Janlee_MI on 1/10/06 4:00am
Msg #87288

TitleGirl and Becca

Thanks for the advice.

Reply by Janlee_MI on 1/10/06 4:43am
Msg #87289

Re: TitleGirl and Becca

Because our task is essential to the successful closing of the transaction, Signing Agents we are expected to know "more than just a Notary".

What Do Signing Agents Do?

To ensure the highest level of professionalism and integrity to our role, we have two "rules of thumb":

1. We can answer the question "WHAT" (give a definition) but not the question "WHY" (in regards to loan terms and conditions)

2. We "IDENTIFY" the documents – not "EXPLAIN" (we point out key features and information on the docs and secure proper signatures).
Our responsibility is to ensure that real estate loan documents are signed in a timely, professional and accurate manner. Lenders count on us not only to secure the signatures, but also to make sure that the docs are signed in a manner that will allow the loan to be sold in the secondary market.

I found this on a Website for a SS Company I have closed loans for about 6 years. I said I was new to Michigan not to SS Companies.

And Becca, Sorry if you thought I was being a know it all. I have respected for your skills. I hope we can be chat friends and no hard feelings.