Posted by MA_SA on 1/6/06 11:54am
Msg #86641
Keiths Case
Keith said he got a lawyer. Does anyone here think he has a case? I think no.
1. This is a public forum. All of what Moblie Docs said was TRUE, none of it was false. Therefore, a case for Defamation holds no water.
2. This is web based, meaning, how can you prove that Mobile Docs was really the person who said what was said on this site? For all the court knows, that could have been an eight year old kid playing on his home computer in his basement. Or, it could be another title company or SS trying to compete with Mobile Docs and using the user name Mobile Docs and posting a notaries name on it, trying to defame the character of Mobile Docs. Look at what people thought in the initial posts after Mobile Docs ratted Keith out, everyone didnt like the fact that the real name was posted. In a nutshell, you cant prove who really posted that initial post.
JMHO
| Reply by CarolynCO on 1/6/06 12:02pm
Msg #86646
How do you know that *All of what Mobile Docs said was TRUE* ?? You don't. Threre are always three sides to every story -- in this case, Keith's, MobilDocs and the truth.
| Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 1/6/06 12:07pm
Msg #86648
If the only information you have is what you read here on these boards then you don't have enough information to make a decision on what is true and what is not. Keith may very well have a case, then again he might not.
It is not difficult to trace where the post came from if that needs to be done.
| Reply by Glenn Strickler on 1/6/06 12:09pm
Msg #86649
Well, only Keith knows if he has a case or not. Way back, I was trashed over something similar on another site and through a couple of letters from my attorney, got a retraction posted and some monatary damages (not much). However, I never posted anything on the board and no one knew anything was going on until the retraction was printed. The signing company is now out of business.
Be advised, however, even if you post as "anon" that the server registers your ip address and that can be used in court. Almost as good as a fingerprint.
| Reply by MA_SA on 1/6/06 12:14pm
Msg #86654
I guess you guys are right regarding what Moblile docs says is true. I guess what i should have said was "mobile docs shouldnt be worried right now as long as they know everything they said in that post was true." you are right though, they may have misrepresented the situation in the post.
As far as IP addresses, you are right about tracing it back to the specific computer. I was thinking before about web based emails not being used as evidence. You would just have to prove that someone from MDocs actually sat at that computer and posted. .... interesting...
| Reply by Glenn Strickler on 1/6/06 12:21pm
Msg #86659
If it is sent from your computer, you are responsible ..
unless it was stolen and not the day of or after the post. That is why most businesses passwords and have to log on and off. That way you protect your computer and can trace actions to a particular user.
I protect all my computers in the house with passwords as there is a lot of personal information on there. True, someone who knows what they are doing can usually get by the password, but Joe burgler would have no clue on how to get in.
| Reply by MA_SA on 1/6/06 12:30pm
Msg #86663
Re: If it is sent from your computer, you are responsible ..
I dont know glenn. I cant say i agree. I dont think there is a general law out there that says that you are responsible for anything sent from your computer. First of all, you have to prove its that persons computer. that might be relatively simple. But then picture a defense attorney, say if it was a criminal case, questioning and defending his own client. "Is your computer password protected?" Answers No. "well then anyone could have logged in and made these statements, then couldnt they have?" "Isnt it possible that someone else in the office used your computer, and made these statements."
Just a thought.....
| Reply by Glenn Strickler on 1/6/06 12:51pm
Msg #86679
Re: If it is sent from your computer, you are responsible ..
Well, without getting into too much detail on my case, as part of the settlement was for me not to comment on it, lets just say, I have already been there and done that as outlined in my first post.
Plus, I think it is prudent for everyone who does business on their computer to password protect it somehow. Even if you just shop online and do nothing else, there is information that can be used for identy theft on your computer. If you go into control panel and pick passwords, Windows will give instructions. You can also set passwords in your bios before windows actually boots up. That differs from computer to computer.
| Reply by CaliNotary on 1/6/06 12:58pm
Msg #86683
Re: If it is sent from your computer, you are responsible ..
"But then picture a defense attorney, say if it was a criminal case, questioning and defending his own client. "Is your computer password protected?" Answers No. "well then anyone could have logged in and made these statements, then couldnt they have?" "Isnt it possible that someone else in the office used your computer, and made these statements.""
You really think that is a defense when a company is being sued? "Yes, it was definitely somebody from our office, but it wasn't me, so this case should be dismissed" Prosecution attorney: "You do realize that this lawsuit is against both you as an individual and Mobile Docs as a company, which would include all of the employees?" Client: "But I read on notaryrotary that if it were possible that it were somebody other than me then I should be ok!"
| Reply by Paul_IL on 1/6/06 3:55pm
Msg #86727
Newsflash Glenn,
Hackers use other computers and other ip addresses all the time. This is why computer crime can be so difficult to prosecute or track. If the user know what they are doing the IP address will mean absolutely nothing..
Regarding Keiths Case, If what was said is true there is no case period casue the truth is the truth. If he did what was said well stick a fork in him cause he is Done!
| Reply by Glenn Strickler on 1/6/06 5:10pm
Msg #86734
Hey, Paul, All due respect but .....
I don't know if you read my original post on the subject. I have had actual experience with this in an actual case and it turned out favorably for me. The "we didn't do it, someone must have hacked in" defense did not work in my case. I don't know about anyone elses case.
Any geek or police department forensic computer expert can tell if the system has been hacked or if the message really came from that ip address. It's not difficult. Homeland Security does it all the time.. Ask George Bush.
When I post, I only comment on subjects I am sure about or have had actual experience with. I don't blow smoke. But you can take the information and believe it or not. Of course, all due respect to you.....
| Reply by Paul_IL on 1/7/06 1:46am
Msg #86816
All Due respect but your case has Nothing to do with this
one. And you have NO facts on this one. Only one side of a story. And those are the Facts!
| Reply by Shane_OH on 1/7/06 2:55am
Msg #86820
I hate to be the one to bust the proverbial bubble on the IP addresses thing, but there is absolutely NO way to hide the originating IP address for anything.
Sure you can make it look like it originated from another placec with false headers, misleading IP addresses added to a header, but each individual email is tracked specifically with an originating IP address.
Even if you use one of the spammers anonymous email servers, the original IP address is not removed, its just masked.....which it can be unmasked by any computer security professional.
Even if you bounce ip addresses from servers across the globe, the originating IP address is accessible in all cases.
This being said, just because you can prove which computer sent the email, does not mean you can prove who wrote the email/message board message, etc...
| Reply by PAW_Fl on 1/7/06 7:23am
Msg #86831
Originating IP address ...
Shane,
For the most part I do agree with you when you say ...
>>> ... there is absolutely NO way to hide the originating IP address for anything. <<<
However, using REMAILING gets around this. Remailing is when an attempt is made to throw tracing or tracking off the trail by sending the e-mail to a computer that strips the sender's IP address and remails it with the remailing computer's IP address. The only way to find out who sent the mail is to look at any logs maintained by these remailer or anonymizer companies. Their stated policies, however, include the proviso that they don't keep logs. About the only thing an investigator can do is closely analyze the message for embedded information that might give clues to the user or system that sent the message.
For more info on anonymous remailing, see http://www.faqs.org/faqs/privacy/anon-server/faq/use/part3/section-1.html
| Reply by Shane_OH on 1/7/06 11:22am
Msg #86857
Re: Originating IP address ...
I stand corrected. Didn't even think of thank....
| Reply by Shane_OH on 1/7/06 3:00am
Msg #86821
Just another clarification....
The Term "Hacker" is actually a good term in the computer security industy.
Hackers tend to be computer security professionals that are hired to test online security for people, by attempting to break into their network/computers etc. The people that hire them are aware of the attempts, and the hackers use their findings to help their clients fix security flaws. The largest employer of hackers worldwide is microsoft, who hire "hackers" to seek out security flaws in their browers/operating systems etc, so they may "patch" up those problems..
The term "Cracker" is someone who attempts to break into a system maliciously. The media just focuses on the term Hacker, which is actually the good guy.
just a historical fyi.
| Reply by TCMN on 1/6/06 2:02pm
Msg #86708
Re: Keiths Case ??????????????LONG,but just my $.02
I am wondering....
1. Why hasn't Keith posted anything?
2. What if the MobileDoc poster WAS Keith trying to get a company into the hot seat himself to "make a buck", make good on a threat for the company not stiffing him on 3 signings before, etc.? (I think it would take more for Keith the pull that off and prove in court but who knows)
3. I agree there is more to this than what has been written but how exactly can you believe anything that is posted in any other thread unless you are able to confirm it?
Example 1..."You have to have a an insurance license in UT before you can practice as a notary signing agent" ---- POSSIBLE to prove
Example 2..."So and So sucks as an NSA" "So and So sucks as a SS" "So and So's a Republican we Democrats shouldn't work with them" "So and So is a Democrat they can't be trusted, don't work with them" ---We can't PROVE that is a definate. The NSA might be great with someone else, the SS might be great with someone else, the Republican might be the best business associate you ever come across and the Democrat's trust might be far more worthy of you than a relative who might have turned you in for something in your youth. Are we getting the point?
4. The First Amendment issue.....well....hmmmm....Freedom of Speech...hmmmmmmm......I believe everything is interpretation. The Bible, Whats Right or Wrong (yes there are some black and whites that's pretty concrete in that area), etc....
BUT....we all have a right to speak freely.
5. Slander, Defamation, etc...I'm not an attorney but I personally believe that someone has the right to speak the truth and of their OWN experience(unless you have a gage-order I suppose). You can talk to whomever you want personally, to friends, family, collegues, etc. I think you can post here your experiences, how you feel, your opinion, your own actions & what happened to you, or if you will never work with someone again, you should be able to say that.
I believe though that you have liability if what you say is false or your intent is to cause damages to someone.
I believe there was a thread awhile ago that Charm, BrendaTX and I was involved in...was it about a Margaret or someone? Not sure and I'm not looking it up because this will be a novel the way it is. Anyways, if I remember even somewhat correctly, someone said that a COMPANY can't just come on the boards and blast a NSA without giving ANY details of the incident. Oh, yes I remember, the SS came on and posted that a NSA was crazy or something, scared the borrowers etc...everyone blasted them for posting a full name. Well, everyone here posts company names when they don't pay us (might just not be fast enough, might be overlooked, might be on purpose...OR it might be that the NSA is a freck and calling every day because 30 days was Tuesday and they didn't have their check signed and in the bank yet and has no sense of reality that things get lost int eh mail, the mail might have been delivered to the neighbors house by mistake and they are in FL for the winter and the SS really did send it) My point is we can have our opinions and as individuals we can heed or ignore it.
NOW, if someone comes on here and says NSA - JANE DOE is a LIAR, UNETHICAL, THIEF, etc. and then posts it everyday, sends out a blast email, etc. ....in other words ADVERTISE it to cause HARM then I think you would have a case.
But until you have proof or personal experience with someone HOW do you know it's truth or not?
I think people are sue-happy. I think as a society we have come to think we are "owed" things sometimes. I believe we are owed only what we extend. You give respect, you should get it back. You work hard, you receive value for it (ex. your wage, promotion, etc). We have lost the sense of value and what it is to EARN things.
I'm not sure why this one company coming on here and posts a statement makes Keith believe that his "being" is damaged where it has been determental to living as he did 3 days ago. If this was a first time job with each, move on, who cares. If he is good at what he does then the people he works with already knows that and what someone else says shouldn't matter. If this was a working relationship for several signings, then I think something more happened and that it has nothing to do with this ONE cancellation.
But on that account, we beleive as a NSA community that the notary was not in the right to cancel last minute(maybe not for that reason, but what if they were told it was 15 pages?). Why are companies allowed to cancel last minute then? WE block out time counting on that as income and they do not have to be accountabe for it. Rather NSA's are not requiring them to be accountable. Mostly for fear of losing business, but all the same.
Let me ask this....now-a-days if you make an appt for the dentist and you decide you don't want to go that day but you don't cancel more than 24 hrs, or 12, or 6 even before your appt, your still charged or at least a portion of the visit cost...........why doesn't EVERY notary believe their professional service has that same value and should be expected and required?
Not sure if anyone is the author or if it's just something that I have in my head for my own good but this statement holds value for me and I think it is a good example for last minute cancellationa dn change in our industry....
"One person can change things, but you will never be successful or cause change unless you are able to take risks and accept the results of your choices."
ended up being more like $1.02 worth...sorry, just get going sometimes.
| Reply by Blueink_CA on 1/6/06 3:07pm
Msg #86722
This situation reminds me of one earlier where an SS bashed a notary by name (#61423). Fortunately the SA saw the postings and was able to defend himself (#61501). My point? What if this SA was not informed? This "misunderstanding" may have cost him some work. In both of these cases, the SA's name should not have been posted. But since it was, I think Keith, if it is Keith, could have done a better job of responding. Just my opionion.
| Reply by KEITH KUNZE on 1/6/06 5:02pm
Msg #86731
sorry but i am limited in what i can and can not say right now but i did not put myself here mobile doc's did
I HAVE NEVER SUED NOBODY....... BUT I HAVE NEVER HAD MY NAME OUT THERE FOR BASHING BEFORE....I HAVE NO CHOICE, I MUST DEFEND MY NAME IT'S ALL A PERSON HAS.....
THANKS: AND GOOD LUCK
| Reply by Glenn Strickler on 1/6/06 5:13pm
Msg #86736
Keith,
You shouldn't make any more posts on the subject as long as you have an active case. I would be curious on the outcome, however. Good Luck.
| Reply by KEITH KUNZE on 1/6/06 6:14pm
Msg #86749
I was told not to post the CO. but other notrary's is ok
some posts said they were removing me from there list you would think that's a bad thing but for my case it's great !!!
I have never sued anybody but i have no choice it's my name and there has never been a bad thing said about me before all those jobs i did you would think i would get a little respect
but no lets bash the guy I sure wish I could tell you exactly what happen but right now I can not sorry..... THANKS : KEITH
| Reply by Anonymous on 1/6/06 6:20pm
Msg #86751
Hey Keith,
I bet you'll never cancel an appt again with such short notice, and no re: to borrowers or SS.
Let this be a lesson for ya.
Hopefully an expensive one.
| Reply by KEITH KUNZE on 1/6/06 6:26pm
Msg #86754
Message Deleted
This message has been deleted by a forum moderator
| Reply by Kristy Alvarado on 1/6/06 6:44pm
Msg #86760
Message Deleted
This message has been deleted by a forum moderator
| Reply by Charles_Ca on 1/6/06 6:46pm
Msg #86761
Re: Keiths Case: I understand but....
I understand and even appreciate your righteous indignation, but I believe that Glenns last post was a good recommendation to follow. The wrong done is recent and the wound painful and then to have some idiot pour salt in it is unforgiveable. Right or wrong this last post does nothing to endear you to the community regardless of what anonymous said. When you are victorious post away, I will be one of the first to offer my congratulations. When you are victorious then we can relegate this anonymous to the trash heap with the rest of the pariahs. Success is the best revenge!
| Reply by Glenn Strickler on 1/6/06 7:43pm
Msg #86774
Keith, one last bit of advice, then I am done.
You really do need to quit posting. This stuff has a way of comming back and biting you. If you feel that you need to vent, then you can vent to me in a private email. Having been in those shoes, I know how you feel, but your last post now has me wondering. Remember, regardless on how you are treated, we are in the customer service business and you need to maintain your cool at all times. I did not post at all under the advice of my attorney when my problem was going down and in then end, I had the last laugh.
| Reply by Janel Nichols on 1/6/06 10:43pm
Msg #86808
Re: Keith, Glenn is most wise...
Keith. My rep is very important to me also. However, if you were advised not to make any comments by your lawyer, I wouldn't. Zip it for now or don't pursue the lawyer and defend yourself on this board if you feel that you have too.
I am reluctant to have an opinion, but of course I can’t resist!!!:-) Any court case civil or criminal comes down to what you can prove. Burden of proof is more in a criminal case than in a civil case. But Glenn is most wise!!
Whether you think you said something bad or not....you by your own words were still told to zip it....and you didn't listen. To me that shows a lack of concern for your rep and a lack of self control. Perhaps the lawyer bit is a bit of an exaggeration?? Did you cancel at the last minute because of your obvious temper and poor judgment in colorful metaphors? Remember courts do not respond well to this. You need to maintain a straight line, emotions in check. You retained the lawyer. The burden of proof is yours. You show one face to the judge and the judge reads what you are posting here….. it just does not show credibility. Stop it.
If the SS is really in the wrong. Stop helping them. I really don’t think….the old…someone else must have logged in on my computer bit….is going to work. If the judge feels it has the “reasonable ring of truth” to it, you are really not going to do well. If the judge has too much info left to one persons word against the other…he or she has to decide who is more credible. Your poor display so far…not good. Sorry Keith, but I would just be quiet for now.
| Reply by Paul_IL on 1/7/06 1:40am
Msg #86815
Glenn, You are jumping to the conclusion that Keith did not
do what was said with no facts? Perhaps you own issue is clouding your judgement in offering to be the shoulder to vent on. Seems kinda strange that the SS just popped on to give poor Keith a thrashing!
We vent all the time about TC's SS's etc.....Guess we shall see where the truth lies in this one at a later date! I am sure Keiths attorney would have advised him not to post at all if he had consulted one...His posts will definately be brought up in court should this ever see the inside of a courtroom.
| Reply by Glenn Strickler on 1/7/06 11:33am
Msg #86859
Re: Glenn, You are jumping to the conclusion that Keith did
Well, perhaps you are right although I didn't mean to jump to any conculsions. And you are right again about this subject pushing my buttons. My own problem began when I won a small claims case against a company for non-payment. And it was right after I retired and began my NSA business when it can be the most damaging. This morinig after I slept on it and calmed down, I see things a little differently.
So we shall see. ...
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