Posted by Anonymous on 1/24/06 11:10am
Msg #90638

Sending your business cards with docs ??

Sorry to post Anon but I don't know the protocol for this business card issue. Most of my business is from the same bunch of SS so of course I don't send a business card when I return my docs. Recently I was asked by the SS to drop of docs at the title company. I was wondering if it would have been inappropriate to give them my business card. I didn't leave one because I didn't want them to think or call the SS and say "hey! this SA is trying to get your business" Of course I would love to get business from them directly. Should I now send them a business card or just "drop by" with one? Does anyone market to title/escrow companies that the SS are giving you business for? I know eventually some of the companies are going to overlap but is there some sort of proper etiquette for this?

Reply by Shane_OH on 1/24/06 11:15am
Msg #90642

If you are going to drop by, drop by with a business card, and presentation folder that will include things like experience, coverage area, fee schedule etc.

Marketing business that you got thru a SS can be frowned upon.... I would suggest going to other title companies in the area, not necessarily the one the SS sent you too.

Just call the ones in the yellow pages, and ask if they use mobile closers.

Reply by eXpedN_TX on 1/24/06 11:17am
Msg #90643

If I was hired by a signing service and had to send the docs to a title co. I would not add my business card to the folder. If you would like to market to title/escrow, I would send out a short yet informative letter with a business card or two -- separately. JMHO.

Reply by Beth/MD on 1/24/06 11:20am
Msg #90644

I don't include my card with docs to title. If the TC is the one that contracted me, they already have that information. If a SS is the one I'm working with, I feel it would be cheesy to include my card with Docs. You could end up losing the business from the SS and get no business from the TC because you appear to be trying to undercut someone.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 1/24/06 12:11pm
Msg #90662

I agree with Beth...

even though I would love to cut out the middle man (face it we all would like to make more, not less) the thought of marketing myself with the TC that is doing business with the SS that hired me sounds tacky. I wouldn't expect to hear from either one again if I tried to undermine their business relationship. NOW IF the TC called on me directly (they have my email addy), I wouldn't think twice about taking the assignment.

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 1/24/06 11:21am
Msg #90645

Unless specifically stated in a signed ss contract that you may not, then send one with each package you do. Many feel that ss contracts wont hold up in court. I think that my card should go in every package I do so that the recipient can contact me if they need to ask any questions. I've had lo's request me to put my card in the package when I have had to call. There's a point where the middleman is just a pain in the rear and uneccesary (like when at the table or verifying sketchy shipping info). As far as the one you mentioned I think you missed the opertunity and need to wait till the next time you do one for them. Otherwise you are directly marketing to the ss client. However when marketing if you are targeting a specific area that you intend on contacting all tc's and lenders in that area I see no conflict if you inadvertantly contact an ss client. You aren't going to memorize each and every tc and lender used from packages you did 9 months ago.

Reply by Anonymous on 1/24/06 11:31am
Msg #90649

Agree with SarahBeth...

I always include a card to TCs so they can contact me if they have any questions relating to the docs or the signing. I wouldn't solicit them directly if they came to me thru an SS, but if thye like the quality I provide and THEY wish to contact ME later for work of their own volition, they are free to do so.

Reply by Joseph Miller on 1/24/06 4:01pm
Msg #90747

Re: Agree with SarahBeth...

I also agree and always include a card no matter who I send it to. This sometimes helps when a signing company goes belly up and you dont get paid then if that title co has another signing they can call you direct. Recently I was owed money from signing co from October and I had a call from attorney asking me to do a closing on the same borrower and I told them I was never apid when the signing co sent me last time, I was informed they went bankrupt and attorney said just to put it all on one invoice and send it to him, so I included the old signing and the new one together.

reason I mention this is that I found out they found me through A business card I sent.

Joe/NC

Reply by Anonymous on 1/24/06 11:34am
Msg #90651

I made the fatal error of giving my business card to a title company after I did a cloing for a ss in the TC office. I was not trying to undercut them nor did I have any mal intent but the mistake cost me any future business with the ss plus a friendship so I learned the hard way. I, like you, was unsure of the protocol, but probably should have been cautious. I will never give my business card out again unless I am marketing completeley seperate from the ss.

Reply by SLB SIGNING SERVICES, INC. - Sherry on 1/24/06 12:05pm
Msg #90661

As a SS, you all probably already know that I think this is a bad idea...There have been many instances where my client (the TC) has contacted me to let me know that the closer was handing out business cards to them and they thought it was pretty rude to do (as did I for that matter). Needless to say those closers that did that were never called again by myself or the TC. If you are doing a job representing a company why would you feel the need to market yourself? I know I am probably going to get bashed over and over for this but I think this is well worth the bashing. If there are problems with the docs or the title company needs to get in touch with you, they can contact us and we will contact you. I know that many of you are all for cutting the middle man out (that means me) but I think that there are some SS's out there that are providing a quality service for both the TC's and SA's alike (and I am trying my best to be one of those). Its really not a good idea because yeah you may get some business from TC's who are not happy with their SS BUT if the TC is happy with their SS, you will probably lose more business than you will gain!

Reply by SLB SIGNING SERVICES, INC. - Sherry on 1/24/06 12:22pm
Msg #90665

Forgot to mention....

Isn't there more since of accomplishment if you go out and actively market yourself versus getting handed something? Cant tell that this is a heated subject for me now can ya? LOL

Reply by Janlee_MI on 1/24/06 12:42pm
Msg #90673

Sherry SLB

You know that is one of things as a Signing Agent that different, as a Closing Agent we always put our card in. So thanks for the info. I haven't down it but it hard to know what to do.

As a TC I liked the card to place in the file when I closed it so that way if there was problem I had it to contact. But. So thanks for your Opinion Sherry.

I think so far you have been very professional in your answers.

Reply by Anonymous on 1/24/06 1:07pm
Msg #90681

Re: Sherry SLB

I always put a couple of cards in with the docs......I've gotten alot of business from TC'S this way. It appears as though some TC'S would rather go direct to the closer and eliminate the SS.
Fine with me........ I make more $$$ for less aggravation and I dont have to put up with the "Let me see if I can get that fee approved" crap.

Reply by SLB SIGNING SERVICES, INC. - Sherry on 1/24/06 2:24pm
Msg #90712

Re: Sherry SLB

Here we go because I know some are going to rip me for this one but....Don't you have any ethics? I guess if you can live with yourself at the end of the day thats all that really matters. I would truly appreciate it if you unveiled yourself so that I will be sure to stay clear of you when looking for closers.

Reply by eXpedN_TX on 1/24/06 1:50pm
Msg #90697

I agree with Sherry....

I try to put myself in the TC and SS shoes when I ask myself these sort of questions. If I was the SS I would not be very happy with the SA. You don't know if they are trying to TAKE your business from you or if they are trying to be helpful?!?! As for the TC, I think I would also feel poorly about the SA for trying to "take" business from the service that hired you. If they did it to another company, than waht;s stopping them from doing it to me?!?!? I see by Anon's post that putting in business cards helped their business, good for them. However, if I were the TC, I would see things differently. I don't see any harm in contacting title companies in a separate personalized letter, unless, however, you have another type of agreement with a SS.

Reply by LawrenceOK on 1/25/06 9:51am
Msg #90998

Re: Forgot to mention....

Marketing ourselves is our right as business owners, but it would be improper to market OFF of others. I can do my own marketing and don't need to send cards back to TC when an SS hired me, thats called OFF marketing. However I take assignments from whom ever calls me first, and I really don't care who has a contract with who. If SLB calls for a signing, then I will do the signing for SLB. If Title company calls me, then I do the signing for Title company. If SLB has a contract with Title company, thats between them and not me. (just using SLB as an example Sherry) I am an Independent Signing Agent and I have no contracts with anyone.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 1/24/06 2:38pm
Msg #90715

I agree with you Sherry

As you know I am one of those who are advocating cutting out the middleman. However there is a little something called ethics involved. I work with SSs just like everybody else and I would never hand out my business cards while doing a job for anyone else. I don't see it as a quandary it's cut and dried: if you agree to work for someone else then you must protect that persons business and treat it as your own. I sometimes take loan applications for lenders as an accommodation. I am also a Loan Officer but I don't see a moral dilemma. I take the application and the information and pass it on. I could use it for myself to try and get the loan but that would be unethical. Unfortunately ethics seem to be a foreign concept to some.

Reply by Beth/MD on 1/24/06 7:31pm
Msg #90806

Re: I agree with you Sherry and Charles

As I previously posted, I don't include a card. ETHICS.

Reply by SLP_VA on 1/24/06 3:04pm
Msg #90723

I agree with SaraBeth and Anon

I include my biz card with every package. It's not to undercut the SS by trying to get business from them - it's in case the person receiving the package has any questions for me regarding the package. I've also had several SS call and tell me that they received good reviews on my loan docs sent in and request that they use me for their closings. If a TC was to call me direct for closings and I knew it was from a SS that I've dealt with in the past, I would tell them to please go through the SS.

Reply by Anne/IL on 1/24/06 12:41pm
Msg #90671

Maybe it's time I change the way I "thought" I was doing a good customer service deed. I usually staple my business card to any package going back out, no matter who it is. I don't do it to try to get more business from TC directly when I'm hired by SS, I only do it in case they have a question or to simply provide them with a "return address". I personally hate to receive something that doesn't identity who sent it...

Hmmmm..... definitely something to think about, I didn't see it that way. Maybe I should just stick to include a business card only if the package is returned to who hires me.....

Reply by srnotary_CA on 1/24/06 1:56pm
Msg #90700

I haven't sent my business cards back with docs. I think that it would be undercutting the SS and if you have a good working relationship with one ruin it. JMHO

Reply by SLB SIGNING SERVICES, INC. - Sherry on 1/24/06 2:09pm
Msg #90705

If I were a TC and a closer tried to backdoor the SS, I would definately assume that the closer would do the same to me. Assuming I am a TC for a moment, what is to prevent that closer from contacting the brokers directly and soliciting business from them (referring them to other title companies with lower rates, etc..). That is just underhanded if you ask me. So those of you who think this is OK I would prefer that you let me know ahead of time so that I will do my best to avoid you at all costs. Not trying to be insulting but why would I want to hand my clients to these closers on a silver platter? Get off your butts and market yourself!

Reply by srnotary_CA on 1/24/06 2:16pm
Msg #90710

I agree with you Sherry...Market Market Market n/m

Reply by SLB SIGNING SERVICES, INC. - Sherry on 1/24/06 2:20pm
Msg #90711

And to add to the above

If you are a good enough closer, you would not have to operate this way.

Reply by John_NorCal on 1/24/06 2:31pm
Msg #90713

Re: I agree with Sherry's post....

in my opinion, to try to under cut someone who has given you a job, etc is the lowest depth that one can sink to. Morals have to count for something.
I wouldn't try to skirt a SS, but if I market myself independently and a TC hires me directly, that is a different story.

Reply by SLB SIGNING SERVICES, INC. - Sherry on 1/24/06 2:31pm
Msg #90714

Re: I agree with Sherry's post....

Nicely put John....

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 1/24/06 3:02pm
Msg #90722

Re: And to add to the above

Sherry I understand what you are saying. I'll make a short reiteration on my thoughts and follow up with a situation where it applies. I put my card in the package so they can contact me directly with questions if neccesary. On one particular signing the ss calls me and says "the notarization was executed incorrectly according to lender". He then explains the situation. Turns out the lender is flat out wrong according to CA law. What could have been 2 calls between the lender and myself (2 because the first one was from someone who didn't understand ca law and wasn't able to clearly explain it to thier company), became 4 calls to me (2 from lender, 2 from ss), and 4 calls between the lender and ss. Instead of 7 minutes and no middlemen to screw up the conversation, it was a couple of hours between all of the calls. Waisted time and money by all parties, plus the headaches. I have done many signings for this ss since.

As much as I can't stand the thought of a middleman taking a cut there are some ss that know what they are doing (you sound like you may be one of them), aren't handholders, and are worth taking assignments from. When we choose to take an assignment from them if they don't want me to put a card in the package I wont. It is not just a marketing tool. I'm not in the business of weaseling to gain customers. It is appropriate to include your business card. Unforunately thier are others who don't have the same ethics as I do that mess things up for the rest of us.

Reply by SLP_VA on 1/24/06 3:13pm
Msg #90727

SLB...

I really never really thought of it that way. I truly see your point, but when I send biz cards with packages, it is in no way to market myself or try to undercut the SS that hired me. It is simply and plainly sent in case the TC has a question about the loan docs, or the signing. I appreciate the relationships I have acquired with the few SS that I deal with. I would never do that. Now that I see you mention it from the SS side, I may rethink my "customer service" way of doing business.

Thanks for the insight.

Reply by SLB SIGNING SERVICES, INC. - Sherry on 1/24/06 3:24pm
Msg #90730

Re: SLB...

I realize that most probably do this with good intentions but there are some that dont. I am glad that I am able to see your perspectives on these things as well. It is just really hard when you are dealing with 500+ closers to know whos intentions are good and whos are not. If I believed everything everyone told me, I wouldnt have this business and that is horrible to say. Before owning this company, I was a very trusting and maybe naive person but boy have I learned my lesson. It is really a shame that people dont rely more on their word and reputation. I think this world would be a much less complicated place.

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 1/24/06 3:32pm
Msg #90732

Re: SLB...

**** It is really a shame that people dont rely more on their word and reputation. I think this world would be a much less complicated place.****

You got that right Sherry. Unfortunately they don't and end up blowing it for the rest of us, sa and ss both.

Reply by SLB SIGNING SERVICES, INC. - Sherry on 1/24/06 3:42pm
Msg #90737

Re: SLB...

Just like those bad SS that blow it for us good ones...forcing a lot of you to want to cut out the middle man

Reply by NM_CO on 1/24/06 3:45pm
Msg #90739

Re: SLB...

Exactly! I don't have problem keeping the notaries that I do have, I have a problem getting notaries to trust me and for me to trust them.

Reply by SLB SIGNING SERVICES, INC. - Sherry on 1/24/06 3:58pm
Msg #90746

Re: SLB...

So I am not the only one with that problem...isnt it great?

Reply by NM_CO on 1/24/06 4:32pm
Msg #90755

Re: SLB...

Sherry, nope. Not the only one with the problem.

If everyone trusted each other..........there wouldn't be such a thing like lawyers.

Reply by eXpedN_TX on 1/24/06 4:52pm
Msg #90760

Re: SLB...

Or, if everyone "could" be trusted there wouldn't be such a thing as lawyers.

Reply by Charm_AL on 1/24/06 2:51pm
Msg #90717

If I am contracted for a job thru a SS I will not include a card to the TC when sending docs back, only a hand written sticky on the folder that says Thanks for the business, Cheryl...with any comments that might have to do with the closing as a heads up. If they need to get ahold of me, they will go thru the SS that hired me.
It's easy to tell the difference and I send my cards to everyone else.

Reply by Anonymous on 1/24/06 6:39pm
Msg #90786

It seems to me that the TC'S are pretty darn happy to eliminate the middle man when they can..... several of them have mentioned how nice it is to deal with me directly.......My bottom line has increased dramatically since I've been dealing with several TC'S that used to book my services through SS'S. The best part is that I no longer have to play the notary auction or the "let me see if I can get that apporoved" game. It is pleasure to quote a fee and hear "thats fine we'll send the confirmation". That reminds me.... I need to order more business cards.

Reply by O/Cnotary on 1/24/06 6:54pm
Msg #90789

Can we take that to mean you include your card with the docs

and that you have no problem intervening between SS and TC? Just curious!

Reply by Anonymous on 1/24/06 7:05pm
Msg #90792

Re: Can we take that to mean you include your card with the docs

Yes.... I do. I consider it to be "free advertising". As a matter of fact I had two closings today and I have three tomorrow from TC'S who have called me directly because of my cards being enclosed with return packages. Is this any different than SS'S trying to undercut our fees by calling every notary in town for the cheapest deal? Work smart and make money.

Reply by SLB SIGNING SERVICES, INC. - Sherry on 1/24/06 7:18pm
Msg #90796

Re: Can we take that to mean you include your card with the docs

Like I said before, please unveil yourself so that I NEVER EVER call you....Since I respect the SA's that I work with, I would hope that they would respect me in return....

You have so very much to say about this topic yet you refuse to reveal who you are. Real gutsy move on your part.

Reply by NM_CO on 1/24/06 7:23pm
Msg #90800

In response to what Sherry just said; ditto.........

I do not want to work with a notary of these standards. That's great that you are getting business and it's your objective to advertise the way you wish but please do reveal yourself so I personally do not call you.