Posted by Calnotary on 7/17/06 11:36am
Msg #133607

Borrowers ID does not have the Sr. after his name...

And all the loan documents have Sr. How can I notarize his signature without the Sr in the ID?
I look in the "seach"button and nothing came up. Credible witness is not an option since he has driver lic., military ID and passport but ALL without the Sr.

Thanks for you comments or opinions.

Reply by PJM/MI on 7/17/06 12:32pm
Msg #133612

Hi,
Of course his ID will not say "SR" on it. He was not born a "Sr". He only became a SR when JR was born. Only JR will have his legal name as John Doe, Jr.

Reply by Brad_CA on 7/17/06 12:43pm
Msg #133617

A signer's identity document must contain at least as much information as contained in the signature. For example, when notarizing the signature, John Smith, Jr. the Jr must also appear on the identity document. The identity document can contain more information as the signature, but never less. If someone signs the document as Mary Ann Smith and her driver's license only has Mary Smith, you must use an alternate form of identification that has her name in the form of Mary Ann Smith. Similarly, John W. Jones, II must have an identity document with at least John W.Jones, II

Reply by PJM/MI on 7/17/06 1:32pm
Msg #133630

Once again, a SR is not a SR until JR comes along. His birth certificate and his state ID will not have SR on it unless he legally has it changed.

Reply by janCA on 7/17/06 2:03pm
Msg #133644

How do you know that this isn't Jr. signing for Sr.? If the docs say Sr., the ID should say Sr. He's probably run into this problem before and has probably had many chances to have his ID changed. Why in the world are the docs drawn with a Sr but there is absolutely no ID to prove it. I wouldn't do it. And I've had many a borrower with Sr. on his DL.

Reply by NCLisa on 7/17/06 2:21pm
Msg #133647

Again, does anyone here realize that Jr. and Sr. are suffixes, designations that people use and the reason they are not on most of their ID's is because they are NOT a legal part of the name. Even a Jr. does not have Jr. on his birth cert, if he does, he can never be a Sr.

Reply by janCA on 7/17/06 2:47pm
Msg #133656

Lisa, I understand what you are saying, but still, according to CA notary law, I don't know about NC notary law, if the docs are drawn with a Sr., Jr., III, I've never seen the Dr., but I'm sure it has come up, or what have you, the ID has to reflect that. I've never had a problem with a lender redrawing docs with this type of situation.

Reply by Tess/ME on 7/19/06 8:06am
Msg #133978

Re: Borrowers ID should have SR after his name if he

entered it on his original application as part of his name. I have had borrower's tell me that they "used to be a JR" but when their father died they dropped the "JR" and don't use it, however, their birth certificate says they are and their driver's license doesn't. Thankfully those few that I have come in contact with had a Passport to back up the correct names. I remind them that if it is on the birth certificate it is part of their legal name and you keep it forever (or you change it in court).

Reply by NCLisa on 7/17/06 1:59pm
Msg #133641

Sr., Jr. etc. after a name are suffixes, not part of the legal name unless it was on their birth certificate or they legally changed their name to include it. You are verifying his name, not his status of Sr. or Jr. Same way Dr. is not part of your name, but I'm sure you've seen the prefix Dr. on documents before.

Someone with a birth cert that says John Smith Jr. will not become John Smith Sr. because Jr. is a legal part of his name, he will always be Jr. While John Smith can become a Sr. when his son John Smith is born, and his son John Smith can be the III when he is born. Designations (the suffuxes only change) when they are not part of the legal name.

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 7/17/06 2:49pm
Msg #133660

Re: Question, Lisa and PJM. . .

If the docs say Sr., you figure there must at least be a Jr. If ID doesn't say Sr., how do you determine if it's Sr. or Jr. (or III, IV, etc.) standing before you?

What resolution are you suggesting?

Reply by Brenda/CA on 7/17/06 3:24pm
Msg #133663

Re: Question, Lisa and PJM. . .

I have had this happen docs had Jr. id did not. I can only identify him by the first and last name, not Jr. I called the TC they said to have the borrower put a line through Jr. and initial, and sign with only first and last names (which is what we did).

Reply by Gerry_VT on 7/17/06 5:24pm
Msg #133697

States seem to have few laws about names

I have not come across any state laws that I can think of about what a name consists of. Sure, we have lots of traditions, such as having at least a given name and a family name, writing the name in roman letters, etc., but I can't remember any laws that say what can be in a name and what can't. Who's to say that a suffix like Jr. in a document is really part of the person's name, and isn't just a description, like John Smith of London; "of London" isn't part of his name, it just describes him?

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 7/18/06 4:47am
Msg #133785

I do not agree w/ the comparison of the Jr./Sr./etc. suffixes to the SOCIAL or honorific title of Dr. Nobody is born and legally identified by their social titles, and while these prefixes or suffixes (including military titles, or M.D., D.V.M.. or Reverand) may/may not be included in the person's legal signature - they will not be part of their legal name unless/until that person takes the steps to MAKE it part of their legal name. (A bit OT - I think nuns actually change their names legally, don't they?)

The Jr/Sr dilemma has considerable consequences, because it's a frequent cause of confused info on credit reports, personal records, title vesting, and countless times I've SEEN it deliberately 'confused' (nice word for fraud). It becomes a headache because Jr/Sr is very common - but the frequency of the headache doesn't change the facts.

Boiled down - it is the responsibility of the SOS to determine & verify a person's COMPLETE, FULL LEGAL NAME (written in MI statutes). That is the name they place on the D/L or ID. That name is my guidepost as a notary, and I can use less but not more. Period. MI is clear - the SOS has THEIR responsibility, and I have mine, and the two tie together when a person's identity is being confirmed. K.I.S.S.

I can not (and therefore will not) ID Jr/Sr unless it is included in the name as verified by the ID. No different than any other name discrepancy in my opinion.

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 7/18/06 11:48am
Msg #133808

Re: Less but not more. . .

ReneeK, you said, "That name is my guidepost as a notary, and I can use less but not more. Period."

Many times the question has been raised, here and elsewhere: Why can you accept less? Under what Michigan law are you authorized to do that? If you accept less of a name, you may be notarizing John A. Doe's signature instead of John B. Doe's.

P.S. Depending on the order, nuns are now keeping their birth names (first, middle and last). Too many Sister Maries among the orders to know who is talking about whom, not to mention Social Security and pension rights from prior lives being misdirected. I took a class a couple of years ago with two sisters from an old, old order who surprised the heck out of me with their full names, their clothing and their attitudes. "We're human, too," they kept saying, but I still wanted them to be a little better than the rest of us.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 7/19/06 5:40am
Msg #133977

Re: Less but not more. . .

I meant I can ID him as less, if there is MORE on the D/L - man, I gotta watch my syntax! =) Thanks for bringing this to my attention, Marlene.

Nuns are human??? Mere mortals??? NO, say it isn't so! Too funny - "too many Sister Maries" - isn't THAT the truth! I was schooled by nuns, and will never shake the feeling that they're part human, part Something Like An Angel.