Posted by Joseph Antonucci on 7/13/06 9:31am
Msg #132924

GA Signing Agents

I always heard that Georgia is an attorney state and closings require an attorney to be present for the closing. If so, how do mobile notaries operate if they are not attorneys. Are they permitted to do loan closings on their own

Reply by Lawyer_GA on 7/13/06 10:10am
Msg #132945

I'm trying to reply to this post, but it won't accept my reply. Says that there's a problem with the post but doesn't tell me what it is...

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/13/06 10:11am
Msg #132946

Re: GA Signing Agents - LawyerGA

Cut out all the foul language (j/k).

No, just try rephrasing the words around "notary" or where you might have used 321 in reverse order.

Reply by Lawyer_GA on 7/13/06 10:12am
Msg #132948

Re: GA Signing Agents - LawyerGA

Thanks, Brenda!!!

Reply by Lawyer_GA on 7/13/06 10:11am
Msg #132947

Joseph - They are doing it illegally! Georgia is not even like some "Attorney States" that allow non-attorneys to handle the closing in the attorney's absence as long as the attorney "signs off" on the closing later. Here, the law has required for nearly 3 years now that the attorney not only conduct the closing but that he or she be physically present for the same. The only individuals in Georgia who ought to be performing so-called "mobile" or "witness-only" closings are Georgia-licensed attorneys. I am aware, however, that there are quite a few non-attorney real estate agents, brokers, and notaries continuing to perform these closings for companies that are willing to work with them. In fact, many of these individuals currently advertise on NotRot and a host of other sites. I guess they have no fear of what'll occur if they're ever found out. The biggest problem, of course, is that if a borrower ever disputes the way in which one of these closings was handled, everyone involved with the closing will be "taken down." The closings are illegal from their inception; and the documents that have been signed are not worth the paper they're printed on. It's a risky way to do business...

Reply by SueW/Tn on 7/13/06 10:18am
Msg #132951

To Lawyer_GA

I found your post extremely enlightening. I have handled Ga. docs here in Tn. and living just 16 miles from the state line have often wondered how those notaries can advertise here without having all their ducks in a row. As a side bar, can you tell me in your opinion why, with the restrictions being what they are, is Georgia the number one state in the nation for mortgage fraud? Enquiring minds want to know...

Reply by Becca_FL on 7/13/06 10:37am
Msg #132959

Excellent question SueW. Inquiring minds DO want to know. n/m

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/13/06 10:38am
Msg #132960

Re: Excellent question SueW. Inquiring minds DO want to know.

I have seen this question before and I wonder...is this the reason why GA went to an attorney state? Was it an attempt to clean it up?

Reply by SueW/Tn on 7/13/06 11:01am
Msg #132967

Ga. continues to issue additional restrictions because...

they can't seem to get to the crust of the problem. The attorney they used for the closings that I did was SUPPOSED

Reply by SueW/Tn on 7/13/06 11:06am
Msg #132968

OOPS....sorry

was supposed to stay on speaker phone with the borrowers, he didn't. He wasn't able to explain the TIL when they asked questions about the APR AND he gave them the crappiest reply to questions that were asked in earnest. I think his canned answer was "let's wait until I get those docs in my hand to answer that" and it was a simple question on the ARM! I was tea totally amazed! They continue in that state to tighten up the regs because more and more is coming to the surface. My personal opinion is as a neutral witness MORE questions come to the table because our borrowers are more comfortable with us and not intimidated my the legal eagle that just says "ahhhh, don't worry about that, we'll take care of it on this end". They lean towards keeping mum because they don't like to look foolish. Just my 2 cents but I'd truly like to hear from someone that's directly involved in the process. To me it doesn't say much for their "attorney only" restrictions to hold the number one spot!

Reply by Lawyer_GA on 7/13/06 11:42am
Msg #132976

Re: To Lawyer_GA

Hi, Sue@/Tn! I can't really address the mortgage fraud issue since I'm not a full real estate attorney per se. I actually specialize in another area of the law. I have been handling "witness-only" closings in Georgia for the past 3 years, however, and have "paid my dues" in that respect. I visit this site fairly regularly -- perhaps 2 to 3 times a week -- especially when I'm not very busy. I've noticed that the general perception is that attorneys, as a rule, are inept closers. Well, that's not true of all of us. I'm not a point and sign type. I can explain the docs as well as the next SA -- probably better than many. I wouldn't, however, engage in any arrangement to explain the docs over the phone to a borrower closing on a Georgia property while in another state. That, too, constitutes UPL. He or she is effectively practicing law in another state without a license. It boggles the mind that people do that kind of thing. I'm the first to admit that there are many attorneys here handling "witness-only" closings that shouldn't be. Basically, you can pass the Bar exam and get a stamp and run out to do a closing. There's a lot to be said for training. It's also important to note that, when an attorney shows up at a borrower's home, the borrower generally expects a bit more in terms of an explanation than what he or she might expect from a notary. I hear all sorts of horror stories from borrowers about poor explanations and attention to detail from lawyers where I'm the second attorney sent out to correct a failed closing. So, it's not all fun and games here just because you get a fatter check as an attorney than the average SA. Last night, for instance, I was at a closing at a home for nearly 3 hours just because the husband likes to crack jokes constantly. The people were friendly enough but just seemed just a little too thrilled about having a door-to-door attorney over. For what it's worth, I like doing this work much more than the other portion of my practice, but many of the attorneys here just don't take it very seriously. They're also very secretive about it since true Georgia real estate attorneys frown upon closing loans in this manner.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 7/13/06 12:27pm
Msg #132992

Re: To Lawyer_GA

Fair enough and I appreciate your response although the situation still seems to be as clear as mud. One would think with an Attorney handling the docs the borrowers would be alot less likely to experience predatory lending or out and out fraud. I'm thinking that if an attorney showed up on my doorstep I'd certainly "get my monies worth" and I would feel "protected". I dunno barrister, it doesn't fair very well to know that you (in general) can demand 3-5 times what I can and yet the end result is common knowledge throughout the industry. The fact that your education cost many times more than mine is not an adequate argument because you have chosen to do what I do. Do I sound like I'm venting? I apologize as right now you're a captive audience but I think you can see where I'm going with this. Tell me, do you work directly for Title? I would surmise most of your work is direct thereby cutting out the middleman. Do you have the same problems that we do in getting paid? Do you get paid whether the loan funds or not? More importantly, do you collect full fee if there's a no sign? Forgive me if I'm getting personal but we read everyday about the issues of the industry, I'm curious if an Attorney experiences the same ups and downs.

Reply by Lawyer_GA on 7/13/06 1:37pm
Msg #133012

Re: To Lawyer_GA

I'm not offended at your questions, Sue... Actually, I often have the same pay issues as you. I've even had a couple of -- gasp -- no-pays when a closing went south because I wouldn't sign someone with inadequte ID. Some of the companies I work for pay me 1/2 the fee whether the loan funds or not; others will meet my full fee. I decide whether to accept the 1/2 fee arrangement based upon the volume of work I'm doing for the company. Most of my clients are now title companies; but, I had to go the signing services route for a long time before the title companies really became interested in me. It's also not easy to solicit business from title companies in Georgia, because attorneys must work on-site at those firms. So, most of the title companies I do business for are outside the state.

Reply by lonestar_tx on 7/13/06 10:27am
Msg #132956

You can sign for out of state property only, no closings for GA property, or the UPL (un authorized practice of Law) Board will be quite unhappy. Mobile notaries can do other notorial work in thier own state, and should develop relationships with lenders, and title companies out of state to generate work.

Also, not every attorney is a notary in GA - you could always offer your stamp and your wonderful service to an attorney for a fee.

Reply by PAW on 7/13/06 11:42am
Msg #132977

That's not the way I understand the situation within GA. Of course, I am not a notary nor an attorney in our neighbor to the north, so I am going by what I've heard and read.

My understanding is that only attorneys can close loans within the state boundaries of GA, no matter where the property is located. So, if the borrowers are in Atlanta, GA and the property is in Dallas, TX, the loan still must be signed by an attorney. However, if the borrowers in TX and the property is in GA, then a TX notary can sign the GA property.

If this is incorrect, please let me know. Thanks.

Reply by Lawyer_GA on 7/13/06 11:45am
Msg #132980

Paul, you are -- as always -- correct!

Reply by lonestar_tx on 7/13/06 12:58pm
Msg #133000

GA Signing Agents - Thanks for keeing me straight.... n/m

Reply by DeliveryBoy on 8/24/06 3:42am
Msg #140486

Why atty.s? I'm not sure about mtge. fraud. Atty.s do have more liability so I guess they would be more worried about this.

My understanding of why atty.s are required is the type of conveyance involved. Example, CA is a "lien state" because the borrower is the legal owner of the property. A "lien state" says "Mortgage" and a "title state" says "Security Deed or Deed of Trust" instead of mortgage? GA is a "title state." The lender is the legal owner of the property, not the borrower! This means that they can forclose on the borrower without a hearing/trial (vs. 5/14th amendments to the Constitution, taking property without due process). An atty. is required because every refi, etc. conveys ownership from the borrower to the lender. Conveying real estate is defined as practicing law, therefore an atty. must do it, otherwise it's UPL.

LawyerGA, I also understand that GA wants only GA lawyers as the settlement agent, and wants to cut out the out-of-state title co.? Does this mean that GA lawyers are assisting others with UPL every time they do a witness only closing?

>Yep, "attorney state" means you can't do closings unless you're licensed as an atty. in that state. Applies to refi.s, HELOCs, etc., as well as purchases. If you do a closing and are not licensed as an atty. in that state it's a misdemeanor (unauthorized practice of law).

I think there are 7 atty. states? GA, SC, MA, DE, WV, VT, MD, (and IL requires either an atty. or title agent?).

-DB