Posted by PattiCA on 7/13/06 5:02pm
Msg #133049

Our dear SOS

Just got off the phone with the SOS...trying to reconfirm and shed light on the the credible witness ambiguity of our notary handbook. I gave the scenario that I had been asked to do a notary but the signers ID had expired within the last 30 days. My question was: can I use a credible witness...the response surprised me...they said that as long as the expiration of the license was within the last 12 months, I could use the signers CDL/State ID card.
When I stated that the instructions in the handbook on what constituted a valid ID was very clear and the use of an expired ID had to have been issued within the last 5 years and with CA 5 year licenses, that was nearly impossible, I was told that the philosphy at the SOS was that as long as the DL had expired within the last 12 months, they would consider it a valid ID.

Maybe it was just the person I was talking to, but she stated that although they could not interpret the handbook for me, it was their opinion that this was the meaning of the handbook direction...scary

Reply by DogmongerCA on 7/13/06 5:14pm
Msg #133051

Same experience here

Three people can all call with the same question, and no one gets the same answer.

Reply by BarbaraL_CA on 7/13/06 5:19pm
Msg #133052

Yes it is scary! Maybe....

the people at the SOS office answering questions are ex-NNA employees

Reply by John_NorCal on 7/13/06 5:46pm
Msg #133057

Actually that would make sense in a bureaucratic kind of way. The license has to be current OR have been within the last five years. Long live the bureaucrats!

Reply by John_NorCal on 7/13/06 5:47pm
Msg #133059

Forget what I just said, I didn't mean to post it n/m

Reply by PattiCA on 7/13/06 6:08pm
Msg #133063

I realize you didn't mean to post your comment...but I want you (and everyone else) to understand what I was told...we could you an expired state id or CDL if it had expired within the last 12 months. This would make the ID more than 5 years and up to 6+ years from date of issuance in most cases. That is what is scary...because I argued the fact, she put me on hold a couple of times to confered with her "work mates" and they had this consensus.

Reply by John_NorCal on 7/13/06 6:33pm
Msg #133067

I agree with you. It doesn't pen out and is confusing n/m

Reply by CaliNotary on 7/13/06 6:57pm
Msg #133069

This is why I wouldn't consider a phone call to the SOS the way to get a definitive answer to our questions. If something were to become a legal issue in the future, I seriously doubt "well I call the SOS and they told me it was ok" is going to be a good enough defense if it goes against what is in the notary handbook.

As far as the "ambiguity" of the credible witness wording in the handbook, what exactly about the way it's written implies to you that having an expired license meets the standard of "very difficult or impossible" to obtain a current ID? It's not at all ambiguous, you can't use credible witnesses in that situation, assuming the only problem is that they haven't gotten around to renewing it yet.

Reply by Joan Bergstrom on 7/14/06 1:32am
Msg #133109

I teach students to pass the Ca State Exam and what is meant by a "current drivers license" is: In Ca we can accept any US driver's license or Canada/Mexico that is current and Arizona gives a drivers license for 62 years and the I.D. picture is updated every 12 years.

Arizona therefore has a current drivers license.

The Sec of State person didn't know what she/he was talking about concerning an I.D. issued within 5 years.

What this means in Ca is you have a license (from any state or Mexico/Canada) that expires after the 4th year and the license has been "issued within 5 years" a notary could use the these I.D's. between the 4th & 5th year.

Reply by PattiCA on 7/14/06 10:05am
Msg #133157

Hi CaliNotary...We have had this discussion before, and originally I disagreed with you...but I'm still not satisfied with how the handbook has it written. When we first had the discussion, I called the SOS (who at the time agreed with you) but could not provide me with an example of when it would be allowable to use a credible witness. There was a small discussion yesterday that brought up the CW issue again...and since I guess I had nothing better to do, I called the SOS to see how the story would change. My post was not asking for advice, but to advise those CA notaries who may not be aware...but they need to beware of the advice (opinion) of our SOS. I just found the whole conversation appalling and wanted to share the horrifying experience.

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 7/14/06 9:22am
Msg #133145

Re: Patti, I answered this at length on GMN.

Didn't realize you asked both places.

Reply by PattiCA on 7/14/06 10:07am
Msg #133159

Re: Patti, I answered this at length on GMN.

Hi Marlene,

My post was meant more as informative than a question...I just couldn't believe the horrible answer that I recieved from them. Bit I do have the info provided by you and Terri and will be bringing this matter to the attention of a supervisor...I was just so in shock yesterday...I never thought to ask for a superior...

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 7/14/06 1:19pm
Msg #133217

Re: Just remember, they're human, too.

They may be the scary government, but they're just like you and me in different jobs.