Posted by Anonymous on 6/13/06 2:36pm
Msg #125634
Acknowledgements or Jurats
When notarizing something the person has to choose which they want or does the notary?
|
Reply by vonneycali on 6/13/06 3:02pm
Msg #125644
I have always declined to notarize anything for anyone that they want done without a form. For instance, a friend of mine wanted a letter that she wrote notarized. I told her that I was unable to sign it because it needed to be in the correct format. I suggested to her that she go to her attorney and put it in the correct format, (which would require an ack.) and then I would be happy to notarize it. HTH!
|
Reply by vonneycali on 6/13/06 3:09pm
Msg #125645
Correction: I attach an all purpose ack form for those forms that require a notarization if it says that it needs to be notarized. But unless it says it needs to be notarized, I do not notarize just 'any' type of letter or doc. Sorry for the confusion..
|
Reply by Anonymous on 6/13/06 3:18pm
Msg #125646
Im an upcoming notary and need a little help.
Thank you
|
Reply by Sylvia_FL on 6/13/06 4:08pm
Msg #125665
I often have someone come to me with a letter or document they want notarizing.
I always explain that I don't notarize letters or documents, I notarize the signers signature.
If there is no notary certificate on the letter or document, I inform the signer of the two certificates that are available and ask which one they want to use.
|
Reply by Anonymous on 6/13/06 4:57pm
Msg #125678
So when you ask them which one they want to use and they ask what is the difference between the two, what shall be my response?
|
Reply by PAW on 6/13/06 5:21pm
Msg #125691
You explain the difference to the person requesting the information. If you don't know the difference or how to explain the difference, then I suggest you need to read up on what an Acknowledgment is and what a Jurat is, and what they are typically used for. This is the very basic of notary knowledge. No one should have to tell you what your response would be. Sorry if this sounds curt, cruel or nasty, but your question makes me wonder what your level of notarial expertise really is.
|
Reply by Anonymous on 6/13/06 5:56pm
Msg #125705
I want to become a notary. Im reading a booklet that I have and im just asking questions. This is a forum correct?
|
Reply by Joe Ewing on 6/13/06 5:17pm
Msg #125689
Wow, now that's what I call making up the rules!
It is the Notary's duty to notarize when there is a proper request and the signer is able to pay the fee. If a complaint was filed, the Secretary of State could suspend or revoke your certification. Presented with a completed document that does not not contain a Notary Acknowledgment or Jrate still is considered a proper request. The notary would then ask if the signer was signing it willfully or under the penalty of purgery and inform the signer that there are different notary certificates for each. Once the certificate is chosen the notary would obtain the acknowledgment or give the oath.
|
Reply by PAW on 6/13/06 4:14pm
Msg #125668
I think you are missing the purpose of a notary public. You do not notarize the document. You notarize the signature placed on that document after following proper procedure. It makes no difference what the document "format" is and to say that the "format" is not correct may be construed as UPL. As a notary public, you simply are there to take an acknowledgment (or give an oath), identify the signer, and ensure that the signer is aware of what they are signing and doing so of their own free will. As a notary public, you cannot be concerned with the "format" or contents of the document. It could be nothing more than a simple statement, written on a napkin. As long as there is a certificate provided, or you are told what type of notarization is needed, you can notarize the signature on that napkin, regardless of what it says. (Within reason, of course.)
So, in my opinion, you did your friend a disservice by not performing your notarial duties, notarizing her signature on a letter "because it needed to be in the correct format."
|
Reply by Poppy on 6/13/06 4:46pm
Msg #125674
I'm curious PAW....
What would be outside of reason? ;-)
|
Reply by PAW on 6/13/06 5:09pm
Msg #125685
Re: I'm curious PAW....
Since the notary must 'scan' the document for completeness (no blanks), some things may be evident as illegal activity, things that the notary knows not to be true, etc. But, it is not the notary's job to review the document for legality or accuracy.
|
Reply by Poppy on 6/13/06 5:14pm
Msg #125687
Re: I'm curious PAW....
I thought that was what you meant by within reason, I just wanted to make sure.... I trust your opinion and value your input... Thanks!
|
Reply by vonneycali on 6/13/06 4:57pm
Msg #125677
Ok PAW. Whatever you think.. However, considering you are in FL and I am in CA, the notary laws are different. If you notice, I said nothing about the CONTENT of the form. I talked about the FORMAT of the form. I couldn't care less about the CONTENT. I DO, however, care about the fact that the notarial format or request for a notarial stamp/signature is not on the form. I also posted a 2nd mssg to correct any confusion as to attaching an ack. In my state, we definitely do NOT notarize napkins or things like that. Perhaps it is different where you are. Notice, I also gave advice for what I do. I never said EVERYONE does it this way. ANON asked a question and I gave an answer based on my experience. So far, I don't see what I said as being a 'disservice' to anyone.
|
Reply by vonneycali on 6/13/06 5:00pm
Msg #125679
ps. BTW The letter was drawn up by my friend who wanted to give custody of her children to her parents in the event of her death. As to the content, I couldn't care less, but this is one of those times as you put it 'within reason' that should be referred to an attorney to be put in the correct format. I stand by my initial postings..
|
Reply by PAW on 6/13/06 5:23pm
Msg #125694
Maybe I'm missing something here, but what, in your opinion, is the "correct format" for something like this?
|
Reply by janCA on 6/13/06 5:02pm
Msg #125681
Same goes in CA
Vonneycal, what PAW says is also correct in California. There doesn't have to be notarial wording attached, the principal just has to request which one is wanted, and you as the notary are to explain the difference between a jurat and an ack, you of course, are not to make the choice. You refused to notarize a document for your friend that you could have in fact, notarized.
|
Reply by janCA on 6/13/06 5:04pm
Msg #125682
Re: Same goes in CA
You didn't mention the reason in the original post. I hope she consulted an attorney.
|
Reply by Poppy on 6/13/06 5:07pm
Msg #125683
Re: Sorry PAW
Paw,
After reading Vonneycal's post following mine, it occured to me that my post could come across as antagonistic and that was not my intent... Didn't mean to fuel any embers!
|
Reply by Anonymous on 6/13/06 5:16pm
Msg #125688
Difference
When asked to explain the difference between the two what shall I say?
|
Reply by vonneycali on 6/13/06 5:22pm
Msg #125693
Re: Same goes in CA
Please take a look at the CA notary Handbook, pages 11 and 12. Under each, it states that 'it is not acceptable to affix a notary public seal and signature to a doc without the notarial wording.' This is what I was trying to explain in my earlier postings. I will gladly attach an all purpose ack if necessary, but in the case of my friend, I DID what was right, and that was to refer her to an attorney for her letter.
|
Reply by PAW on 6/13/06 5:33pm
Msg #125697
Re: Same goes in CA
That's not what you said. You said, "I have always declined to notarize anything for anyone that they want done without a form. For instance, a friend of mine wanted a letter that she wrote notarized. I told her that I was unable to sign it because it needed to be in the correct format."
Emphasis on "ALWAYS DECLINE ... WITHOUT A FORM." You said nothing of referring your friend to an attorney, which would be prudent. You were declining the notarization as a notary public because the "format" was incorrect. That's the wrong answer. However, as a notary and a friend you referred her to an attorney. That's the correct answer.
|
Reply by CaliNotary on 6/13/06 7:30pm
Msg #125752
Your interpretation is WAY off
"Please take a look at the CA notary Handbook, pages 11 and 12. Under each, it states that 'it is not acceptable to affix a notary public seal and signature to a doc without the notarial wording."
What this means is that you can't put your notary stamp on a document unless it is being notarized, and attaching a loose certificate is a perfectly legitimate way to notarize something. It doesn't mean that you can only notarize documents that have pre-printed wording on them.
PAW is absolutely correct and you are absolutely 100% wrong. We can notarize almost anything that can be signed, and it doesn't have to have pre printed notarial wording on it. And if you don't believe the many many people who have told you this already in this thread, you should call the SOS, they'll tell you the same.
|
Reply by Poppy on 6/13/06 5:20pm
Msg #125690
Anonymous.... Are you taking a test?
|
Reply by Anonymous on 6/13/06 5:22pm
Msg #125692
lol I want to become a notary. I read the material and im asking questions.
|
Reply by PAW on 6/13/06 5:28pm
Msg #125695
You are in CA, right? In CA, there is a requirement for a 6 hour training class. In that class you will be taught the difference. Whether you learn it or not is yet to be seen.
|
Reply by Poppy on 6/13/06 5:28pm
Msg #125696
Okay,
Good Luck! Nothing wrong with asking questions. PAW is correct however this is basic... I know you're brain is more than likely on overload with all the new things you've learned. So try to think about it...
What do you know about ack/jurats? Explain to us the difference between the two as you see it/them. Then we'll try to help you fill in the gaps and make more sense of it...
|
Reply by vonneycali on 6/13/06 5:45pm
Msg #125703
I agree that there is nothing wrong with asking questions about what I meant, however, to automatically assume that I did a disservice to my friend by not notarizing her document is impolite. Next time, I will explain it more in detail, but I did do the correct thing. As PAW said 'within reason'. I tried to correct and explain what I misstated in the first postings with followup postings. However, I continue to be scalded and even told that I need to go back to class. I have been doing this for a while and rest assured, I am doing my best to be the best. If I have misstated or failed in my explanations today to make you understand what I am trying to say, then I apologize. Perhaps I am not using the right words. I DO notarize the signatures of everything that comes my way, but as PAW mentioned 'within reason'. Since I knew the situation of my friend, I referred her to an attorney, which is the appropriate thing to do. I see no reason for the scalding that I have recvd from many of you here today. However, no offense has been taken, as I know that what I am doing is right. Good luck to all of you in notary land.
|
Reply by Poppy on 6/13/06 5:58pm
Msg #125706
Vonneycali,
I think you may be mixing the responses to annonymous with the responses to you. I don't think the suggestions to go back to class were for you at all...
|
Reply by Anonymous on 6/13/06 6:11pm
Msg #125716
Acknowledgements & Jurats
So what is the difference? Can someone answer that question for me please? Im not a notary, im a *ahem* aspiring notary lol.
Thanks guys I appreciate the help!
|
Reply by Poppy on 6/13/06 6:23pm
Msg #125721
Re: Acknowledgements & Jurats
http://www.ss.ca.gov/business/notary/notary.htm
ACKNOWLEDGMENT
The form most frequently completed by the notary public is the certificate of acknowledgment.
The certificate of acknowledgment must be in the form set forth in Civil Code section 1189. In
the certificate of acknowledgment, the notary public certifies:
1. That the signer personally appeared before the notary public on the date indicated in
the county indicated.
2. To the identity of the signer.
3. That the signer acknowledged executing the document.
The notary public sequential journal must contain a statement as to whether the identity of a
person making the acknowledgment or taking the oath or affirmation was based on personal
knowledge or satisfactory evidence. If identity was established based on satisfactory evidence,
then the journal shall contain the signature of the credible witness swearing or affirming to the
identity of the individual or the type of identifying document used to establish the person’s
identity, the governmental agency issuing the document, the serial or identifying number of
the document, and the date of issue or expiration of the document. If the identity of the person
making the acknowledgment or taking the oath or affirmation was established by the oaths or
affirmations of two credible witnesses whose identities are proven upon the presentation of
satisfactory evidence, then the journal shall contain the type of identifying documents, the identifying numbers of the documents and the dates of issuance or expiration of the documents
presented by the witnesses to establish their identity.
The certificate of acknowledgment must be completely filled out at the time the notary
public’s signature and seal are affixed.
The completion of a certificate of acknowledgment that contains statements that the notary
public knows to be false not only may cause the notary public to be liable for civil penalties
and administrative action, but is also a criminal offense.
A notary public may complete a certificate of acknowledgment required in another state or
jurisdiction of the United States on documents to be filed in that other state or jurisdiction,
provided the form does not require the notary public to determine or certify that the signer
holds a particular representative capacity or to make other determinations and certifications
not allowed by California law.
Any certificate of acknowledgment taken within this state shall be in the following form:
State of California } County of _________
On __________ before me, (here insert name and title of the officer), personally
appeared
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________ ,
personally known to me (or proved to me on the basis of satisfactory evidence) to be
the person(s) whose name(s) is/are subscribed to the within instrument and
acknowledged to me that he/she/they executed the same in his/her/their authorized
capacity(ies), and that by his/her/their signature(s) on the instrument the person(s), or
the entity upon behalf of which the person(s) acted, executed the instrument.
WITNESS my hand and official seal.
NOTARY PUBLIC SIGNATURE NOTARY PUBLIC SEAL
JURAT
The second form most frequently completed by a notary public is the jurat. (Government
Code section 8202) The jurat is identified by the wording “Subscribed and sworn to (or
affirmed)” contained in the form. In the jurat, the notary public certifies:
1. That the signer personally appeared before the notary public on the date indicated and
in the county indicated.
2. That the signer signed the document in the presence of the notary public.
3. That the notary public administered the oath or affirmation.*
4. To the identity of the signer.
Any jurat taken within this state shall be in the following form:
State of California
County of ________________
Subscribed and sworn to (or affirmed) before me on this _____ day of _______, 20__, by
_______________________, personally known to me or proved to me on the basis of
satisfactory evidence to be the person(s) who appeared before me.
NOTARY PUBLIC SIGNATURE NOTARY PUBLIC SEAL
NOTE: Key wording of a jurat is “subscribed and sworn to (or affirmed) before me.” It is
not acceptable to affix a jurat to a document mailed or otherwise delivered to a notary public
whereby the signer did NOT personally appear, take an oath, and sign in the presence of the
notary public, even if the signer is known by the notary public. Also, it is not acceptable to
affix a notary public seal and signature to a document without the notarial wording.
*There is no prescribed wording for the oath, but an acceptable oath would be “Do you
swear or affirm that the statements in this document are true?” When administering the oath,
the signer and notary public traditionally each raise their right hand but this is not a legal
requirement.
|
Reply by Poppy on 6/13/06 6:24pm
Msg #125722
Re: Acknowledgements & Jurats
I hope that helped!
|
Reply by Anonymous on 6/13/06 6:34pm
Msg #125732
Re: Acknowledgements & Jurats
Thank you I appreciate the patience!
|
Reply by The Salas Group on 6/13/06 6:56pm
Msg #125742
Re: Acknowledgements & Jurats
So how would you word that to someone? What if they say, "Well I dont know which one to choose (Acknowledgements & Jurats)."
|
Reply by BrendaTx on 6/13/06 7:01pm
Msg #125743
Re: Acknowledgements & Jurats
In the notary rules of California, there's a good description of both. I looked over/scanned the whole book while seeing if these answers are in there. They are.
|
Reply by Poppy on 6/13/06 7:15pm
Msg #125747
Re: Acknowledgements & Jurats
You would tell them to contact either the creator of the doc or an attorney. You are NOT permitted to direct them. Explain the difference if they still don't know they need to find out... Even if you think you know what they need...
|
Reply by BrendaTx on 6/13/06 6:50pm
Msg #125737
Re: Acknowledgements & Jurats
http://www.ss.ca.gov/business/notary/notary_hdbk.pdf
It's in CA's notary rules.
|
Reply by BrendaTx on 6/13/06 6:49pm
Msg #125736
Read your notary rules.
http://www.ss.ca.gov/business/notary/notary_hdbk.pdf
|
Reply by Anonymous on 6/13/06 6:52pm
Msg #125738
Yes mam
|
Reply by Anonymous on 6/13/06 7:10pm
Msg #125745
When asked to be directed to one, is it ok for the notary to do so?
|
Reply by Poppy on 6/13/06 7:19pm
Msg #125749
Annon,
I get the feeling your just jerking us around. I don't think your as ignorant to the rules as you're leading us to believe. If your are please accept my sincere apology. Either way, I don't want to play any more. So good night and good luck!
If you really are interested in learning read the handbook Brenda posted a link and I posted a link for you in one of your other post.
Take Care!
|
Reply by Poppy on 6/13/06 7:28pm
Msg #125751
opps! make that you're just jerking us around and you're as ignorant to the rules as you're leading us to believe.
Talk about ignorant! Yes, I see the irony in my post... Hopefully it made someone laugh!
|
Reply by BrendaTx on 6/13/06 8:01pm
Msg #125755
I _______ in Anon's general direction
Poppy, I think you are nice...I think anon is taking a test or very, very bored.
|
Reply by BrendaTx on 6/13/06 8:05pm
Msg #125757
Re: I scoff in Anon's general direction...
I could not remember if I wanted scoff, cough, laugh or what, but I knew it was in the general direction of Anon that it should go.
|
Reply by CaliNotary on 6/13/06 8:42pm
Msg #125765
It's fart you want. n/m
|
Reply by BrendaTx on 6/13/06 9:18pm
Msg #125770
Re: It's fart you want.
No. Titlegal and I do not do that.
|
Reply by TitleGalCA on 6/13/06 11:31pm
Msg #125780
Brenda is correct.
And we learned this as little girls. Nice little girls do not do that. It's completely unheard of. My word, I'm aghast at the thought.
|
Reply by CaliNotary on 6/14/06 1:14am
Msg #125788
My mistake
Of course I meant to say misting the world with your sweet essence. Via your butt.
|
Reply by CaliNotary on 6/13/06 7:35pm
Msg #125753
THIS BOARD IS NOT A TRAINING GROUND TO GET YOUR COMMISSION
Jeez, like you've already been told SEVERAL TIMES, if you wanna become a notary you have to take a 6 hour class. THAT is the appropriate place for questions like you've been asking, this board is not.
It's great that you're trying to get a jumpstart on learning notary law, lord knows that plenty of people could care less about it, but this forum is for people who already are notaries, not to teach people about basic notary law.
|
Reply by TitleGalCA on 6/13/06 8:25pm
Msg #125761
Well I guess this puts to rest the argument that anons
or newbies don't get their questions answered. Look at the length of this thread and the answers. I'd say this yet-to-be-notary got some pretty expert advice for nothing.
|
