Posted by Stamper_WI on 6/6/06 6:40pm
Msg #124400

ID'ing Amish

I met a banker for her personal loan signing today and we got to talking about difficulties in ID'ing some people. She told me that many Amish here are getting SS# and or EIN# because banks won't give them loans without them. I asked her about thier lack of ID's. She said they have worked out a way to do that using their elders as credible witness's.

Reply by Ilona_OH on 6/6/06 7:58pm
Msg #124410

We have many Amish and have used hunting and fishing licenses for IDs before. They were cleared first by theLO as being OK to use.

Reply by PAW on 6/6/06 8:12pm
Msg #124413

If they can get hunting and fishing licenses, why can't they get state issued ID cards?

Does OH allow the use of game licenses as ID for notarial purposes? Banks can do as they please as long as they are in compliance with the Patriot Act (and lots of other stuff too). But notaries must be in compliance with state law.

Reply by Stamper_WI on 6/6/06 8:33pm
Msg #124417

This satisfies the 2 credible witness's requirement.

Reply by Lee/AR on 6/6/06 9:25pm
Msg #124431

PAW's right.

Everything else is just closing one eye. There is no reason they can't get a state ID card.
On second thought.... maybe there is... is it also against their beliefs to have their pictures taken?

Reply by Stamper_WI on 6/6/06 9:49pm
Msg #124433

Re: PAW's right.

Many object to having their picture taken. One Amish lady told me that having a SS# makes them subject to the government (in so many words). In the community near here, I have met 3 different Roy Millers! If I had to give a description of them..it would be the same man! The Elders know everyone and their business. I had an Amish farm listed once because the Elders said it must be sold to pay off the debt of the owner. They also made him go work for the "english" on a farm as well. Elders make good witness's.
Lately we have had another branch of Amish come into the area. They seem to be much more wordly. They are buying up some pricy farmland here.

Reply by MichiganAl on 6/6/06 10:35pm
Msg #124446

Re: PAW's right.

If having a SS# makes them subject to government, well doesn't having a mortgage also make them subject to government? Kind of selective, eh? Seems to me they want to have their Amish chicken and eat it to. (and before any cranky anon starts, no I don't have a secret agenda against the Amish)

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 6/6/06 10:37pm
Msg #124447

Re: PAW's right.

Stamper
There are Old Order Amish and there are New Order Amish. They are a split from the Mennonites.

When photographs were introduced in the mid-19th century, the plain people (Mennonites, Amish, Hutterites and Old Order River Brethren etc) denounced them as graven images (some still do).

They also don't have SS numbers, they do not pay into Social Security and do not get Social Security.

They do refer to the "outsiders"as the "English"

I have several books on the "Plain People" written by a friend of mine who is Old Order River Brethren. He works (or did, haven't talked to him in a long time) upstairs at the Peoples Place museum in Intercourse, PA. Also does research work for Good Enterprises in Intercourse, PA

Reply by PAW on 6/6/06 10:29pm
Msg #124444

How did you ID the witnesses?

If the person in question didn't have ID, using two Elders would mean that the Elders would need to have proper ID. What ID can the Elders have that the others cannot? (Not trying to be argumentative, just curious.)

Reply by Stamper_WI on 6/10/06 9:36am
Msg #125108

Keep in mind..

Most do business with their local bank (horse droppings in the drive through window LOL). The old look em in the eye and shke on it thing. Most Amish here are old Amish and still speak what sounds like old German amongst themselves.
If they get junk mail, they tend to ignore it. AOL use to mass mail the CD disc's to sign up for their service. For awhile we were seeing those shiny disc's spinning away on stings in Amish gardens scaring the crows and other pests away!

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 6/7/06 10:25am
Msg #124525

State ID Cards

Many states will issue ID cards without photos for those with religious objections to photos.

Reply by Tina_MA on 6/6/06 10:40pm
Msg #124448

Good thing no Amish live here, because they would need current federal or state ID (which all have pictures).


As for credible witnesses, MA law states:

"...or on the oath or affirmation of a credible witness unaffected by the document or transaction who is personally known to the notary and who personally knows the individual..."


In all the years I've been doing this, I've only come across about ten people who personally know someone I know -- and I've only come across about ten people that I've known personally, and even then, I've asked for their ID and put it in my journal.

Reply by JO_PA on 6/7/06 1:26am
Msg #124467

I posted on this subject several months ago. According to the SOS of PA and the Lancaster County Court House, a church elder is accepted as a credible witness. He is the leader in the Amish community. Also, a close neighbor could also be a credible witness. Amish do not have phones and often use their "English" neighbor's phones and other modern conveniences in an emergency.
Amish, especially the Old Order Amish, are a very strict group of people and I have the greatest respect for their beliefs.

Reply by sue_pa on 6/7/06 7:22am
Msg #124499

Jo, that's only partially correct. You or I as the notary must personally know the credible witness, in this instance the elder. What was suggested by the SOS, to my knowledge, was that notaries who routinely notarize for the Amish get to know an elder who could then be used as the witness. You or I meeting the elder and the signer for the first time could not use this method. I'm guessing in areas where there are a lot of Amish that they have one or two places they frequent for things like notarizations and they don't just stop at any tag & title place along the road.

All that said, in all my years I've never had to notarize anything for the Amish. I've had 2 what I am assuming are Mennonite signers - clearly by the looks of them to be 'Amish farms", buggy in the driveway, no electricity, children belonging on post cards, etc. One had a state id card and one had a drivers license.