Posted by Pamela on 6/29/06 12:00pm
Msg #129583
Notarial Questions!
Completed 'Sponsored Immigrant Household Members Form' document yesterday. Double signatures required (husband and wife). There were two separate sections on the one page, for which each signature had its own notarial verbiage written beneath. Also, document did not have California notarial wording (had general "sworn and swear to" imprinted). Papers are to be filed in Texas (however, the forms are federal).
I therefore lined through the incorect wording and attached two separate Jurat Certificates (one for each signer) to the one document (There were three documents total, and all were completed the same way.).
Now, the day before, this couple had went to another notary to complete four of these forms (they are sponsoring four separate students). The first notary completed only one form (they showed it to me) and did not change the notarial verbiage. And, not only was her seal very dark and hard to read, but on one of the sections, she stamped over a quarter of the signature line!
Also, she did not complete the additional three forms. According to the couple, she told them, that the other three forms did not have to be completed (Because the name of each sponsored student, was not shown on each form, this notary may have thought that the documents were only for one student. Nevertheless, if a customer request notarization for four documents, the notary should not insist that they need only one!. However, I requested the names of each student to be inserted, before notarizing.).
Because the previous notary, notarized the one document "as is", and did not correct the wording the wife insisted that I should do the same on the other three (for which I did not).
Also, due to there being a separate section for both her and her husband to sign, she requested a separated certificate to be completed for each signer (although both signatures were on the one page).
She also telephoned the school "official" in Texas, who according to her, said that California verbiage was not required! That I should notary "as is" and that this person did not know what a California Jurat Certificate was. That "plenty of California notaries, notarized 'as is'."!
I refused. She and the school "official" went "round and round" with this and she finally told me okay.
Questions: Regardless of the state, if a notarization takes place in California, shouldn't California verbiage be used? I have seen posts where this has been debated.
And, if there are two separate signature sections, with each having its own notarial verbage, does each one need its own separate certificate (if the verbaige is wrong), or can both names go on the one certificate?
Thanks!
Pam
| Reply by ARC/CA on 6/29/06 12:11pm
Msg #129589
If the document is going to be filed in another state we can use the wording already on that document. If it is to be filed in CA then we must use the CA certificate.
Having a document with two separate signature sections would be notarized the same as any other set of documents with more than one signature section. Each section may have its own wording. If you used a loose certificate are you describing the document (title, # of pages, etc)? It would be a safe practice as long as you are describing the document for which that certificate applies. That way it would be difficult for someone to remove either form and use it for something else.
Hope this information helps.
| Reply by Pamela on 6/30/06 10:34am
Msg #129956
ARC Re: Notarial Questions!
ARC Good Morning!
These documents had two signatures on one page. Each signature was separated in its own section, with its own notarial verbiage.
I wanted to use one loose Jurat Certificate for both signatures, yet the wife wanted a separate certificate for each signature. She reasoned that, to combine two signatures on one loose Jurat Certificate, would mean that only one signature was being notarized!
Wherefore, I completed two separate jurats for one document and attached it accordingly. There were three documents total, with six jurats.
And yes, I completed the name of each document etc. . .per each certificate.
Thank you for clarifying the jurat issue!
Pam
| Reply by David Kruss on 6/29/06 1:17pm
Msg #129608
According to the 2006 California notary Public Handbook, page 12:
"Any jurat taken within this state SHALL BE (emphasis supplied) in the following form:" and then it goes on to illustrate the proper language for a Jurat.
That means that regardless of what State the documents are to be used in, or sent to, or recorded therein, the use of the specific California language for a Jurat is mandatory.
For an Acknowledgement to be used in, or sent to, or recorded in another State the California lamguage is optional. "A notary public may complete a certificate of acknowledgment required in another state or jurisdiction of the United States on documents to be filed in that other state or jurisdiction, provided the form does not require the notary public to determine or certify that the signer holds a particular representative capacity or to make other determinations and certifications not allowed by California law." (Handbook, page 11)
| Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 6/29/06 1:25pm
Msg #129610
David, as of Jan 2006 the acknowledgement wording is no longer optional. Check the 2006 hanbook.
| Reply by David Lantz on 6/29/06 1:31pm
Msg #129613
Thats my understnding as well SarahBeth. No matter where the document is to be filed, California verbiage must be used.
| Reply by SheilaSJCA on 6/29/06 2:46pm
Msg #129629
Check the CA 2006 handbook pg 11 paragraph 3...
I do not see that it has changed in regards to what is allowed for out of state filings. It is my understanding that we CAN still complete acknowledgements that may be worded different, IF they are to be filed in other states, as long as we are not determining or certfiying capacities etc.,
| Reply by davidK/CA on 6/29/06 3:02pm
Msg #129633
To SarahBeth and others
To SarahBeth and others:
What part of the 2006 Handbook, page 11 are you reading?
The Acknowledgement language is not mandatory for documents outside of California...
"A notary public MAY (emphasis supplied) may complete a certificate of acknowledgment required in another state or jurisdiction of the United States on documents to be filed in that other state or jurisdiction, provided the form does not require the notary public to determine or certify that the signer holds a particular representative capacity or to make other determinations and certifications not allowed by California law." (Handbook, page 11)
If the document is for California then the 2005 California Acknowledgement language is mandatory.
No matter where the Jurat is to be recorded, etc. you must always use the 2006 Jurat language. You cannot use any other language for a Jurat other than the 2006 version of the Jurat.
I don't understand how the manual can be misinterpreted. Perhaps the legislature should make it clearer and have both the Jurat and the Acknowledgement language mandatory, but the fact is they didn't.
| Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 6/29/06 3:46pm
Msg #129649
Right here David
From the CA SOS website
the link is http://www.ss.ca.gov/business/notary/notary_ack_06.htm
This is copy/pasted
Notary Public
New Acknowledgment Requirement for 2006
Assembly Bill 361 (Statutes of 2005, Chapter 295) was signed into law and makes several significant changes in current notarial law, including the amendment of Civil Code section 1189 as described below.
Effective January 1, 2006, the California certificate of acknowledgment must be in the form set forth in Civil Code section 1189, rather than "substantially" in the form set forth therein. The form set forth in Civil Code section 1189 did not change, but variations in the California form are no longer permitted. (The law regarding acknowledgments to be used with documents to be filed in other states has not changed (Civil Code § 1189(c)).
The new acknowledgment form is available in PDF file format and can be viewed, filled in and printed from your computer.
State of California
County of _________
On __________ before me, (here insert name and title of the officer), personally appeared__________________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________________________________, personally known to me (or proved to me on the basis of satisfactory evidence) to be the person(s) whose name(s) is/are subscribed to the within instrument and acknowledged to me that he/she/they executed the same in his/her/their authorized capacity(ies), and that by his/her/their signature(s) on the instrument the person(s), or the entity upon behalf of which the person(s) acted, executed the instrument.
WITNESS my hand and official seal.
Signature __________________________________ (Seal)
Also in the handbook online just above the acknowledgement the following states, "any certificate of acknowledgement taken within this state must be in the following form".
| Reply by Pamela on 6/30/06 10:53am
Msg #129966
David Kruss, Re: Notarial Questions!
Hello!
Thank You for replying!
I use California notarial verbiage for all Jurats and Acknowledgements, no matter where they are filed.
However, when this woman and her husband brought in the three documents for me to notarize, she also showed me the fourth document for which a previous notary had stamped. This fourth document (which also required a jurat), did not have California notarial verbiage, yet the previous notary still signed it!
Because of this other notary's actions, the wife was disturbed that I would not complete the already pre-printed non-California verbiage! Also, it did not help any, when she telephoned the texas school, and this person told her that "all California notaries" complete that particular document "as it"!
Also, unlike the previous notary, I had both the wife and husband take an oath!
Thanks Again!
Pam
| Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 6/30/06 11:04am
Msg #129970
Pamela
If you carry the handbook with you then you can show them what it says. Not that I would want to have to but at least it would show them that I am doing my job according to CA law. I could understand why she was disturbed but if she knew the law she would have understood.
Unfortunately sometimes we think about these things after the fact, but then we can come up with solutions for future situations.
| Reply by Pamela on 6/30/06 6:00pm
Msg #130141
SaraBeth! Good Point! Will Do! Pam n/m
| Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 6/29/06 1:43pm
Msg #129616
***Completed 'Sponsored Immigrant Household Members Form' document yesterday. Double signatures required (husband and wife). There were two separate sections on the one page, for which each signature had its own notarial verbiage written beneath. Also, document did not have California notarial wording (had general "sworn and swear to" imprinted). Papers are to be filed in Texas (however, the forms are federal).***
Was it the document that said "subscribed and sworn" or the notarial block?
****Now, the day before, this couple had went to another notary to complete four of these forms (they are sponsoring four separate students). The first notary completed only one form (they showed it to me) and did not change the notarial verbiage. And, not only was her seal very dark and hard to read, but on one of the sections, she stamped over a quarter of the signature line!
Also, she did not complete the additional three forms. According to the couple, she told them, that the other three forms did not have to be completed (Because the name of each sponsored student, was not shown on each form, this notary may have thought that the documents were only for one student. Nevertheless, if a customer request notarization for four documents, the notary should not insist that they need only one!. However, I requested the names of each student to be inserted, before notarizing.). ****
We don't notarize documents we notarize signatures. If there is a block under each signature then that is how many notarizations are to be performed.
***Because the previous notary, notarized the one document "as is", and did not correct the wording the wife insisted that I should do the same on the other three (for which I did not).***
Good job, you must know and follow your state laws no matter what another notary does.
***Also, due to there being a separate section for both her and her husband to sign, she requested a separated certificate to be completed for each signer (although both signatures were on the one page). ***
Again we notarize signatures not documents. If there is a block under each signature then that is how many notarizations are to be performed.
***She also telephoned the school "official" in Texas, who according to her, said that California verbiage was not required! That I should notary "as is" and that this person did not know what a California Jurat Certificate was. That "plenty of California notaries, notarized 'as is'."!
I refused. She and the school "official" went "round and round" with this and she finally told me okay.***
Again good job. You must know and follow your state laws no matter what a receiving agency says is acceptable to them. The question she should have asked is do you want an ack or a jurat, not do you want an ack or a CA jurat.
***Questions: Regardless of the state, if a notarization takes place in California, shouldn't California verbiage be used? I have seen posts where this has been debated. ***
To reiterate the verbaige on both acks and jurats performed in CA must comply with CA law.
***And, if there are two separate signature sections, with each having its own notarial verbage, does each one need its own separate certificate (if the verbaige is wrong), or can both names go on the one certificate?***
Again when attaching a loose cert their should be a cert for each individual block. You can write in additional information under the block to identify which signature it belongs to.
| Reply by Pamela on 6/30/06 11:12am
Msg #129976
Sarah Beth! Re: Notarial Questions!
Good Morning!
Thank You for replying!
Yes, "subscribed and sworn" was printed in each of the sections. However, unlike, the previous notary, I had both husband and wife take an oath!
The reason for stating that the documents did not have the student names listed, is that I do not notarize incomplete or blank documents. Also being a jurat, they each had to swear that the information was true!
Yes, the block beneath each signature determines the number of notarizations to perform. However, I wanted to combine both signatures on one loose jurat certificate.
Again, there were three documents to be notarized. Two signatures each. I wanted to use one loose Jurat Certificate for both signatures. A total of three certificates. However, I used six loose jurat certificates as the wife wanted one for each signer!
For clarification, it was correct to use two certificates, per document as opposed to only one? This area is still unclear!
Thank You,
Pam
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