Posted by jinxy/ca on 6/11/06 7:48pm
Msg #125304
Notaries with their own agreement
What is the thinking out there about having notaries with having a short and to the point contract that we have the siging companies sign when hiring one of us for a mobile signing? It seems taht we have not been protecting ourselves including being paid on time. Thoughts????
| Reply by BrendaTx on 6/11/06 7:51pm
Msg #125307
Excellent idea, but it will never get signed. They do not sign our contracts, we sign contracts with them. It's a good wish, but will not happen, IMHO. BTW, even if you don't sign a contract, you'll get work in my experience.
| Reply by jinxy/ca on 6/11/06 10:13pm
Msg #125331
Thank you for sharing and I hear you but going to create a short one anyways. When the need arises as with loan signing companies I will forward mine when they send me theirs. About time we take our industry to the level that it should be with all the responsibilties that we are shouldering. 
| Reply by Kelly M Robertson on 6/11/06 8:33pm
Msg #125318
I Have One that My Borrower's Sign
But I only use if when working for direct lenders, title/escrow (not when working for signing serviecs).
In a nutshell, it says that if the loan does not fund for any reason beyond my personal control, then they (the borrower that I signed) owes me my fee. I've had 4 that did not fund for one reason or another this year and all have been paid. I just send the B's an invoice with a copy of the letter they signed along with a self-addressed, stamped envelope and other than a phone call or two to clarify the invoice, I've not had one single problem collecting.
I might add that one major escrow company that I work for regularly has a simiar disclosure statement that's a part of their junk docs; it states clearly that if the loan does not fund, the notary will be paid by them (the b's). This gets signed by the customer just like mine does. D
I'l like to see the culture change so that this becomes "the norm". I don't even want to think about all the edocs I've downloaded and all the gas I've wasted on no signs or deals that have canx. Guess this is my insurance that I haven't done it all for nothing, especially since gas is just so darn expensive and I consider my time professional services rendered and should be paid, every time.
| Reply by jinxy/ca on 6/11/06 10:14pm
Msg #125332
Re: I Have One that My Borrower's Sign
Why not the signing companies to?
| Reply by Bob_Chicago on 6/12/06 12:05am
Msg #125344
A few questions, Kelly, not a shot.
1 Does the bwr know of your reqirment before you come
over for the signing?
2 If a bwr refused to sign your agreement. would you refuse to
conduct the signing?
3 If so, could it be considered coercion of the bwrs if,
they had a financial or legal need to sign the dox on that date?
4 Would requiring them to pay you if they excercised their RTC be
a violation of RESPA?
5 Is the title co/lender aware of your requirement?
6 If the bwr refused to pay you, would you attempt to enforce the "obligation"?
7 What would be the situation if the bwr started signing , and then stopped
due an unsatisfactory provision in the dox?
8 Do you believe the primary obligation to pay you should be with the party
that retained your services, (ie the TC/Lender?
I am clearly telegraphing my negative , but respectful, opinion of your
agreement, but I would be interested in your answers.
Speaking personally, if a NSA came in to my house and haned me
such a document, they would be back in their car before
the engine had a chance to cool off (without the document which I
would retain)
I would immediately be on the phone with the appropriate
parties raising holy hell.
Nothing personal, Kelly, I believe you to be a responsible , professional
NSA, but I have had a "thing" about this type of document since the
idea was first floated by the "Man from Tennessee" on the old
NASA board. I further , seriously question if such an agrement is legal
and/or enforceable.
| Reply by Roger_OH on 6/12/06 8:03am
Msg #125358
Re: A few questions, Kelly, not a shot.
Although Bob may be somewhat misguided in his support of the white sox, I'm with him on all of his very good points on this one. My agreement is with the company that hired me, not the borrowers.
| Reply by Bob_Chicago on 6/12/06 9:22am
Msg #125369
Thanks for your support , Rog. I havn't seen the paper....
for a few days. How are the cubbies doing this year?
| Reply by Roger_OH on 6/12/06 9:47am
Msg #125370
Dude, you could've missed the paper for a month...
and the Cubs would be in the same boat this year, after a rash of critical injuries to Lee, Wood, and Prior. Looks like "Wait till next year!" will come early this season. Looking to come up for the Ohio State-Northwestern game in November, let's get together.
| Reply by Bob_Chicago on 6/12/06 9:57am
Msg #125372
Sounds like a plan. If you are good , I will let you hold...
both, my 2005 AND 2006 World Series Champion White
Sox hats.
| Reply by Kelly M Robertson on 6/12/06 1:55pm
Msg #125427
All is well! No offense taken - you keep me on my toes
Guys, I did do some research on this beforehand. RESPA is basically the law that requires lenders to give borrowers some advance notice of closing costs (like the Good Faith Estimate).
Escrow has another set of rules too and they are governed by the Dept of Real Estate (www.dre.ca.gov/escrow), the Department of Corporations (ww.corp.ca.gov) and If I remember, also by the Dept of Insurance as well (title insur?). Anyhow, I read it all and made my assessment. I spoke with a zillion people in all aspects of the biz (escrow, title insurance reps, processors, lenders, and those in positions of authority in local govt) and I'm quite sure I'm okay.
Escrow fees and closing costs are disclosed on the Good Faith Estimate and the notary fee is a part of all that (escrow). Escrow sends an estimated Settlement Statement to the customer with the docs (here in California - we don't really use HUD-1 for that) and my fee is disclosed on that as well. Remember I work for lenders, title/escrow -- my fee has been discussed and agreed upon. I show the borrowers their Sett Stmnt which has my fee on it and they sign it. I show them my letter, they sign it and agree to pay me and they do (directly) if escrow doesn't close (because then there is no escrow to pay me). I am not specific in the letter, but say "for reasons independent of notary public error and/or no within the Notary's Control". I don't state the reasons (like bad ID, no show, crappy terms, etc) but if they ask for reasons why, I will tell them a few examples). Yes, they do sign! Do I feel weird about it? Nah. I'm there, I'm doing my job, I've traveled, used my gas and my time and I'm gettin' paid.
The appraiser is an independent contractor like we are and they get paid even if the loan doesn't fund. What's the difference (other than they often get paid up front and in advance/separate from the loan docs, but not always).
I don't want to pass along bum info to anyone, especially newbies and I appreciate the opportunty to reply. Like I said, I have an agreement with all the escrow/title companys and lenders (no signing services) I work for and yes, they do know what I'm doing. I'm not kidding you, one major escrow ompany has their own letter that they include in their junk docs that says I am an independent contractor and the customer agrees to pay me even if the loan doesn't fund. BTW, it's not just this one office - it's a major escrow/title company and all of their offices has this brief, one-page form. I would imagine they looked into this issue as well before including with their disclosures and junks/doc packages.
If the customer refuses to sign, then I guess Ill have to deal with that then (it hasn't happened). If they did, of course I'd continue on with the signing because I agreed to sign them. And we all know that many, many, many customers have no clue what they are signing - never have, never will, maybe no interest or who knows. Since I'll never be at your house, Bob, I won't worry about it! Challenges accepted any time!!! If it's a gray area for you, then I guess I'd suggest you don't do it. I have a call into our Corporation Atty -- but he's just that (a corp atty), not a mortgage atty but maybe he will interpret the CA RESPA differently than me. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but a pretty good signer. ox
| Reply by AngelinaAZ on 6/12/06 3:57pm
Msg #125448
You might want to do some more research!!!!!!!!!
***In a nutshell, it says that if the loan does not fund for any reason beyond my personal control, then they (the borrower that I signed) owes me my fee. I've had 4 that did not fund for one reason or another this year and all have been paid. I just send the B's an invoice with a copy of the letter they signed along with a self-addressed, stamped envelope and other than a phone call or two to clarify the invoice, I've not had one single problem collecting. ***
***The appraiser is an independent contractor like we are and they get paid even if the loan doesn't fund. What's the difference (other than they often get paid up front and in advance/separate from the loan docs, but not always).***
The appraisal remember is usually p.o.c. (paid outside of contract) and BELONGS to the borrower if the loan does not fund or cancels. The application fee and credit check fee can also be included in this category if charged ahead of time and are stated as such. If your fee is simply included on the settlement statement in some way, it is part of the settlement charges and the customers are not required to pay these if the loan cancels or does not fund.
Specifically, the TILA and Regulation Z state that customers are not required to pay any settlement charges if they cancel the loan. Asking them to sign that piece of paper in reference to your particular part of the settlement charges is a violation of the TILA if they decide to cancel.
You have a written contract for services with the Lender/TC/Signing Service and I am wondering why you wouldn't ask THEM to sign this instead of some unsuspecting borrower who probably really needs the loan and feels compelled to sign your little statement because they are afraid of what happens if they don't. I think this is VERY BAD business and in some circumstances a violation of law!
| Reply by Pat/IL on 6/12/06 6:02pm
Msg #125465
Re: You might want to do some more research!!!!!!!!!
*The appraisal remember is usually p.o.c. (paid outside of contract)*
P.O.C. stands for paid outside of closing.
| Reply by AngelinaAZ on 6/12/06 6:40pm
Msg #125468
Re: You might want to do some more research!!!!!!!!!
Thanks... that's what I meant. My brain and fingers were doing two different things.
| Reply by Kelly M Robertson on 6/13/06 12:55pm
Msg #125613
Angelina - I do not have a written contact for services
I work for direct lenders, title and escrow and there is no written contract. I already mentioned that I don't work for ss's any more. Thanks for your insight. As far as doing more reserach, I've sent this over to my attorney, lile I already said as well.
| Reply by Kelly M Robertson on 6/13/06 1:05pm
Msg #125615
Angelina, I also said that "for reasons beyond my control"
I responded to Bob's discussion about RESPA, not Reg Z or the TIL. I never said that I specifically stated reasons on my letter, like exercising their RTC. How often do my borrowers cancel? Rare to never - I know because if the loan doesn't fund, I call to find out why. None of my no-pays have been because of a cancellation and I verify that by subsequent conversation with the borrowers. So Angelina, I'm not violating any law.
None of my borrowers are "unsuspecting". They do not appear afraid or compelled. I like to give my customers more credit than that. Sounds like you work mainly for signing companies.
I work for many, many loan originators that take great care of their customers and are hard working and honest. Much of my work is a specific request for me and/or a specific request by a broker. I also see many customers more than once because the broker is still around.
Thank you for your opinon but I think the CAPS for VERY BAD business and accusing me of violation of the law is a bit over the top. It's clear you read some things into my post that weren't there. We all do - no worries!
| Reply by AngelinaAZ on 6/13/06 1:47pm
Msg #125620
Asking the borrowers for payment is out of line!!!
If you want to be p.o.c. then you should come to that agreement with your lenders and list yourself as such and ask for payment at the time of signing from the borrowers. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
As you stated, you are part of the settlement charges and guess what... the loan never settled.
***Remember I work for lenders, title/escrow -- my fee has been discussed and agreed upon. *** Exactly... your fee has been discussed and agreed upon between you and the lender. NOT THE BORROWER! If you think that asking the borrower to agree to pay your fee at the table (just in case) is good business, then you need a wake up call! And if you think that you sitting at the table with their docs and a loan that they NEED to close and then you pull out that doc and ask them to sign it??? I doubt very much that they are willing... they are just hoping to heck that the darn thing closes.
You are denying that you have a written contract??? Do you not get an ORDER from the Lender or TC? I work for them all the time and I still get orders for everything that is not done in-house Title. Your little attempted insult about signing companies was interesting though... it made me smile...
And if you are still going to sit on the fence and say you don't have an order then maybe you should call the borrower ahead of time and contract your fee with them... give them the darn choice and an opportunity to decide whether or not they can afford you. Maybe they would rather call someone else.
Sorry... but it is VERY BAD BUSINESS! You can fax it to your attorney and find as many loopholes as you want and it doesn't make it right!
I work for lenders and title companies all the time and I always get paid for completed work whether the loan funds or not. Maybe you should beef up your working relationships and you wouldn't have to be collecting from the borrower.
I didn't agree with this practice when FLAMAC suggested it and I don't agree with it now!
| Reply by Kelly M Robertson on 6/12/06 1:58pm
Msg #125429
BOB - I was around in the NASA Days -
Who's , "the man from Tenn" ? Got me thinkin !
| Reply by Roger_OH on 6/12/06 2:40pm
Msg #125436
Kelly - that would be our old friend Mike Cooper! n/m
| Reply by Kelly M Robertson on 6/12/06 3:50pm
Msg #125447
Man-o-man, it's been a loooong time since I heard that name
And I guess, the longer the better. Wonder what ever happened to him? Think someone just had enough of him one day and he's..... gone? The name I never forget is that Jamie Jessup... have any scoop on him???
You know, Susan Pense did us wrong by using our trust to get us all to purchase 3yr memberships, well knowing she was going to sell to the NNA. But, it's sour grapes at this point AND I sure learned a lot and made a ton of friendships (some that I still have!) on the NASA message board. I kinda feel like I owe Susan a lot since her site and that board is credited for my success, that's for sure. Didn't she actually coin the term signing agent? I remember getting calls asking, "Hey, are you a mobile notary that does loans?". hehe
| Reply by sue_pa on 6/13/06 7:52am
Msg #125565
Re: Man-o-man, it's been a loooong time since I heard that name
Hey Kelly !!
I don't have the 'scoop' on any of those 3 but I say a daily thank you to all of them - especially Jamie. He was the one who talked me into accepting e-docs all those years ago. Even though I basically knew everything about closing loans in my state, Susan & Scott opened my eyes to the 'signing world'. Mike Cooper, oh my, his rants were what made me realize this was my business and to run it my own way.
The 'newbies' now a days have no idea the roadwork us 'oldies' paved for them 10ish years ago. One of the reasons I seldom post (other than I'm just not as nice and helpful as you and Sylvia are) is many of these people have no appreciation for those that have come before them and what we have done for them in what was back then a brand new business. There are so many little, seemingly trivial tips, that we all learned through trial and error that are given 'standards' today. Oh well, back to my hole.
| Reply by Kelly M Robertson on 6/13/06 8:30am
Msg #125569
Great to hear from you Sue!
I agree! I guess that's why I feel comfortable Coaching: It's fun to see the enthusiastic look on our student "winners" along with the confusion since it reminds me of where I came from. I think it's super important to never, ever forget where you came from and NASA will always get the credit it deserves, along with Susan Pense. Those were some really fun days and we are a part of the history of the birth of the "Signing Agent". ox
| Reply by AngelinaAZ on 6/13/06 3:18pm
Msg #125647
To Sue...
I'm not a newbie but I'm DEFINATELY not an oldie (I mean this respectfully) and I for one learned soooo much from this board. I got into this business because a local TC friend of mine asked if I would get my commission and come do in-house stuff for them. I had already done several hundred of the same ole loans by the time I decided to go beyond the walls...
I learned more in one month by reading this board than I did in the months of doing in-house signings. Those 'little trivial tips' that you referred to have helped me turn this into a thriving business.
I just want to take one second and say thanks. I learn from my own experiences every day but I've learned an infinite amount on the backs of others. So from me to you... Thank you... thank you... thank you!
Have a wonderful day!
Angelina
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