Posted by Sylvia_FL on 6/18/06 2:51pm
Msg #126681
OT - Board "etiquette"
I am real disturbed by the OT thread started by Dennis yesterday!
Dennis had warned it was OT and explained why. No-one was forced to read it.
But after reading it, not only did some members attack the post, but decided to launch a personal attack on Dennis. (That is what I found disturbing!)
I have been around message boards long before the internet, I was a contract holder on GENIE (anyone here remember GENIE and Prodigy before the internet?)
The rule was always it is OK to attack or criticize a post, but never the poster.
I have a great respect for Dennis, having known him for a few years when we were both members of NASA, and have had several phone conversations with him.
He has strong religious beliefs which I respect him for. He doesn't try to force his religious beliefs on to us, unlike some that try to push their political beliefs on to us.
Can we not all be civil in our posts, disagree when we want with the content of a message, but not to launch a personal attack on the poster. Life is too short for this!
Oh - and just in case you want to know, I am a Christian (Mormon) and I am a Republican! But I wouldn't attempt to push my religious or political beliefs on any of you.
| Reply by Signing_Doc on 6/18/06 3:11pm
Msg #126683
Amen Sylvia...I agree 100 percent with what you said...perhaps I was a little too harsh yesterday, and I apologize to those who were offended...and...(for the record)...as I stated I'm a Messianic Jew...and a Conservative (registered Republican with Libertarian leanings)...
"Doc"
| Reply by cyndi_ca on 6/18/06 3:12pm
Msg #126684
Well stated Sylvia.
Thank you for posting what I had been thinking. Like we have said at one point "don't shoot the messenger".
| Reply by HisHughness on 6/18/06 3:23pm
Msg #126686
Sylvia says of Dennis:
>>He doesn't try to force his religious beliefs on to us, unlike some that try to push their political beliefs on to us.<<
Sorry, Sylvia, but that is not only is that a misstatement, it is 180 degrees opposed to the facts. Dennis most assuredly does attempt to force his religious beliefs on us; in his universe, many things now just a matter of belief would become criminal. You could actually go to jail for not following his religious tenets. As, I might add, is true of the political party to which you both belong. His view of marriage, for example, is based upon his religious convictions. Even as we pursue this dialogue, his party -- and your party -- is attempting to force on all of us his religious belief with respect to what constitutes a marrige.
Nor is it correct that Dennis has confined his posts to simply expostulating his beliefs. Note his second post, in which he takes aim at the "typical liberal minded response" and "perverse life styles" -- the latter, I assume, lobbed in the direction of CaliNotary.
If Dennis would confine his righteous zealotry to providing guidelines for his own life, I would applaud him for being a man of convictions. Unfortunately, he doesn't do that; he wants to make me, too, a man of convictions -- criminal convictions.
| Reply by CaliNotary on 6/18/06 3:37pm
Msg #126688
Amen to that Hugh
Dennis doesn't post here for 4 months and then he comes on the board and makes a post about abortion and christianity? In what universe does that NOT qualify as forcing your religious beliefs on somebody? What other reason would there be for posting something like that on a notary message board?
| Reply by LilyMD on 6/18/06 3:42pm
Msg #126690
Re: In response to Sylvia
I only wish Dennis would behave with proper nettiquette. He has been known to shoot many a messenger. I've seen him attack posters for posting with an alias! I'm one of them. I see no need to not extend the same courtesy back to him.
As for you, I truly respect you and think you're one of the sweetest people. So please don't feel my response was in any way anything but good towards you and you're post.
| Reply by Becca_FL on 6/18/06 7:34pm
Msg #126745
Hugh
I wondered if you were witnessing yesterdays insanity. I'm so glad you posted.
| Reply by LynnNC on 6/18/06 3:42pm
Msg #126689
I don't see that people attacked Dennis . . .
. . . but had, as I did, a problem with his post as it was clear that he felt that anyone who doesn't believe as he does is "wrong".
I believe that people are entitled to their personal beliefs, and I to mine. While Dennis has strong Christian beliefs and is pro-life, the fact that I am agnostic and pro-choice does not mean that I am "wrong".
For those of us who are not guided by a literal interpretation of the Bible, but respect the decisions of the US Supreme Court, a decision to terminate a pregnancy is based on personal beliefs, medical reasons and the law.
| Reply by LynnNC on 6/18/06 3:50pm
Msg #126691
PS-- I am a Republican who
. . . is "to the right of center" and I do not believe in a straight ticket of the beliefs of the Right.
| Reply by Julie/MI on 6/18/06 4:10pm
Msg #126696
Re: I don't see that people attacked Dennis . . .
"For those of us (Christians) who are not guided by a literal interpretation of the Bible" What a quote LynnNC.
Well why even bother at all? I mean Thou shalt not kill, let's not take that literally? How are we supposed to take it--partially? Let's just pick and choose on a whim to what is convenient and popular with society. Do you think God is pro-choice?
How sad that some just don't understand the difference between God's laws and secular law--especially those who claim to be Christian. You can't be a cafeteria Christian, you either believe it all and the Commandments or not at all. You have to live as a Christian with every fiber of your being.
Whom do we answer to in the end? The United States Supreme Court or a Higher Power?
| Reply by CaliNotary on 6/18/06 4:17pm
Msg #126697
Re: I don't see that people attacked Dennis . . .
"Let's just pick and choose on a whim to what is convenient and popular with society."
Like you don't do that too. Or are you telling me these are principles that you truly do apply to your life?
"If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people." (Leviticus 20:18)
"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." (Leviticus 25:44-45)
"Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." (Leviticus 19:27)
"...do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material." (Leviticus 19:19)
Gimme a freaking break.
| Reply by celeste/ca on 6/18/06 4:37pm
Msg #126704
Re: I don't see that people attacked Dennis . . .
Cali... Why are you quoting from the Old Testament? As Christians we believe the Old Testament was fullfilled when Christ came so we now follow the New Testament.
| Reply by CaliNotary on 6/18/06 4:47pm
Msg #126709
Re: I don't see that people attacked Dennis . . .
Hey, she's the one who said we should interpret the bible literally, not me. And correct me if I'm wrong, but the old testament is part of the bible.
But I'd like to know, if you now follow the new testament, why do so many people use this quote as justification that the bible says homosexuality is wrong. Isn't it from the same book you're telling me that isn't followed anymore?
Lev 18:22-23 "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.
In case you couldn't tell, I'm hardly a biblical scholar. But it seems pretty contradictory to me. And I'd be willing to bet that there are a fair number of quotes in the new testament that people don't take literally.
| Reply by LynnNC on 6/18/06 4:54pm
Msg #126712
CaliNotary . . .
You would be an interesting dinner guest!
| Reply by LynnNC on 6/18/06 5:14pm
Msg #126716
Taking the Bible literally
I wonder how many Christians take Luke 9:10-17 (Feeding the Five Thousand) literally.
[13] . . . "We have only five loaves of bread and two fish--unless we go and buy food for all this crowd." [14] (About five thousand men were there.)
But he said to his disciples, "Have them sit down in groups of about fifty each." [15] The disciples did so, and everybody sat down. [16] Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke them. Then he gave them to the disciples to set before the people. [17] They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over.
| Reply by celeste/ca on 6/18/06 5:39pm
Msg #126730
Cali, follow up... a bit long
Correct, the Old and New Testaments make up what we know as the bible. The old Testament were a collection of laws, history and prophetical books given to the Jews. Christians believe Jesus (the Messiah) came and sacrificed himself for our sins (everyone, not just the Jews – thus the good news of Jesus). This fulfilled the old Jewish laws. Even though certain laws written in the old testament, including Leviticus were for the Jews to follow, and no longer apply today (i.e. certain forbidden foods, animal sacrifices), many concepts do. Obviously murder was wrong in the old law, and is still wrong today.
The condemnation of homosexuality is carried over from the old law into the New Testament. Probably one of the more popular verses is was written by the Apostle Paul in his letter to the Christians in Rome – called Romans.
Romans Chapter 1 vs 24 – 27:
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves.
25 For they changed the truth of God into a lie, and they worshiped and served the created thing more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this cause, God gave them up to dishonorable affections. For even their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature.
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust toward one another; males with males working out shamefulness, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error.
But there is certainly hypocrisy in the Christian response. Sin is sin is sin… and adultery is certainly forbidden in both the old law and the New Testaments, but is not nearly as “vilified” as homosexuality. Probably because it hits to close to home. Even better, how about Gluttony? I’ve seen a lot “very overweight” preachers out of breath and angrily condemning the homosexual, and then run out to beat the crowd at sizzlers all you can eat buffet! These people are usually called “legalistic”, and may have bible knowledge, but lacking in love, grace and understanding of how to apply scripture. Obviously, they pick and choose their “sins to condemn”. We Christians are often guilty of “shooting our wounded”. In reality, we would be better off if we had a view that we are all just sick patients in various stages of recovery.
Jesus died for all sinners, and all have sinned (Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God” )
| Reply by NCLisa on 6/18/06 8:53pm
Msg #126749
It is all in the translation
The bible has been tranlated and re-translated so many times that NO one can be sure what was originally written and what was written by various roman leaders, popes, bishops, etc. Those aren't the laws of your god and/or messiah, they are the words and ideas of people that wanted to force others to take on their ideals, morals and religion throughout the last 2 millennium.
| Reply by celeste/ca on 6/18/06 9:48pm
Msg #126755
Re: It is all in the translation
I understand we are going to agree to disagree on religion, but a couple more things on what you wrote.
1st, when I stated what was in Romans written by Paul, (originally his name was Saul) he was not a Roman leader, as a matter of fact he was a Jew, who went around persecuting Christians, until he was blinded on the road to Damascus by God. Long story short, he became one of the greatest apostles living his life for Christ.
2nd, the Bible was written in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. The New Testament was mostly written in Greek by the Apostles, and other eye witnesses of the events of Jesus. Roman Leaders and the Catholic hierarchy had no part in the original writings. Paul wrote most of the letters in the New Testament, and since there were no printing presses, the Church (or anyone who could afford it) would use people called “scribes” to make exact copies of a document. Important: Scribes did not translate a document, just make exact duplicates of the original document.
You are correct. Today there are many different translations or versions of the bible (i.e. King James, New International Version NIV etc... This just means that during the time of King James in the early 1600’s, translators who knew and understood the Greek language during the time of Christ, translated the original Greek transcripts into the current English of the day spoken during King James.
We still today have many of the early manuscripts, and some were discovered as late as the 1940’s. They are called the “Dead Sea Scrolls” because archiologists found them by the Dead Sea. If you are knowledgeable in the original Greek, Hebrew & Aramaic, you can read the original text copied by scribes, and make your own translation. Popular translations today re the New International Version (NIV), or the New American Standard, and the list goes on and on…
It is important to note that while Christians believe the words of the Apostle Paul and other writers were inspired by God, a “translation” of the original text by you, me, or anyone else is not inspired, and subject to errors and opinion. This is why different translations may differ slightly from one to another. It is the same today if someone were to write a letter in Spanish, and five different people translated the letter into English, each translated letter would read slightly different.
| Reply by LynnNC on 6/19/06 10:49am
Msg #126796
Re: It is all in the translation
I appreciate your approach, by writing about the history behind the Bible, rather than trying to save us by quoting scripture. If you taught a class on the history of the Bible, I would take it!
| Reply by celeste/ca on 6/19/06 11:45am
Msg #126803
Re: It is all in the translation
You are welcome. As I have learned through the years, Religion is something you cannot force on anyone, they have to want to know and learn on their own. Anyone who wants to discuss anything please feel free to email me, take it or leave it.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 6/19/06 12:29pm
Msg #126807
You are gifted, Celeste...bless you.
Not "bless your heart" because we all know what that means! LOL
Seriously, your approach is perfect. It let your intelligence, humility and good nature show right through.
| Reply by CaliNotary on 6/19/06 1:31am
Msg #126782
Thanks Celeste
It's nice to see a response that contains actual logic and reasoning. Too often in these types of discussions (and certainly in this thread) the pro-Christian side comes across (at least to me) as just preaching.
Hypocrisy has always been my main problem with religion, and that dates back to my childhood as a catholic. My parents sent us kids to catechism every week, but we only went to church maybe 2 or 3 times a year. That just never made sense to me, but I was grateful for it because church bored me sick.
And throughout my life I've just seen so many people who pick and choose what parts of their religion they want to follow. Like a close friend and her boyfriend, both hardcore catholics who met at church, eventually moved in together, were having sex, but wouldn't use birth control since it was against their beliefs. But they justified having sex because "everybody has their sins so we accepted that this is one of ours".
And then there's my brother's mother in law, born again Christian, on her fourth husband.
And don't even get me started on the child molesting priests and Cardinal Roger Mahoney's behavior during the investigations or the televangelists.
I may be an atheist and I may be mouthy, but I also live a heck of a lot more moral and honest and compassionate life than a whole lot of highly religious people out there.
And believe it or not, I completely respect the beliefs of others as long as they show my non belief equal respect. I would never be so tacky as to just randomly post an article on here about how there is no God; to me that's completely disrespectful. I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe, what's the point of either of us trying to convince the other that they're wrong? We ain't gonna know who's right until we're dead anyway.
| Reply by Giselle_CA on 6/19/06 2:38pm
Msg #126828
Re: I don't see that people attacked Dennis . . .
"if you now follow the new testament, why do so many people use this quote as justification that the bible says homosexuality is wrong."
It is my belief the Bible is the Word of God. I don't think He will change his mind no matter how much our culture changes. I think He said what He meant and has revealed His mind to us through the Bible.
To answer your question, this also found in the New Testament. One thing I would like to point out is that everyone of us has sinned no matter how much we would like to justify ourselves.
We also make this very hard when it is very simple: God loved us and provided a way for us to be cleansed from all of our unrighteousness. God provided His Son Jesus Christ, so through his blood shed on the cross, we might be saved.
Salvation is a gift from God and we can choose to accept it or not. He is not forcing us to accept His love or gift.
But, if we choose to accept His love, one thing He requires of us is to repent and be sincere about our repentace. By definition repentace means:
(2.) Metanoeo,
meaning to change one's mind and purpose, as the result of after knowledge.
This verb, with (3) the cognate noun _metanoia_, is used of true repentance, a
change of mind and purpose and life, to which remission of sin is promised.
Evangelical repentance consists of (1) a true sense of one's own guilt and
sinfulness; (2) an apprehension of God's mercy in Christ; (3) an actual hatred
of sin (Ps. 119:128; Job 42:5, 6; 2 Cor. 7:10) and turning from it to God; and
(4) a persistent endeavour after a holy life in a walking with God in the way
of his commandments. The true penitent is conscious of guilt (Ps. 51:4, 9), of
pollution (51:5, 7, 10), and of helplessness (51:11; 109:21, 22). Thus he
apprehends himself to be just what God has always seen him to be and declares
him to be. But repentance comprehends not only such a sense of sin, but also an
apprehension of mercy, without which there can be no true repentance (Ps. 51:1;
130:4).
One thing God cannot save us from is from our own unbelief.
Just my two cents.
| Reply by CaliNotary on 6/19/06 3:39pm
Msg #126843
Re: I don't see that people attacked Dennis . . .
This is a perfect example of what I referred to in my earlier post to Celeste. You're not discussing the topic at hand, you're just preaching.
| Reply by Giselle_CA on 6/19/06 3:56pm
Msg #126846
Re: I don't see that people attacked Dennis . . .
Cali,
I was just responding to your question. Sorry I could not tell you what you wanted to hear.
"And believe it or not, I completely respect the beliefs of others as long as they show my non belief equal respect. I would never be so tacky as to just randomly post an article on here about how there is no God; to me that's completely disrespectful. I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe, what's the point of either of us trying to convince the other that they're wrong? We ain't gonna know who's right until we're dead anyway."
I completely agree with your post. There is no convincing. Weather preaching, teaching or showing...I was posting what my beliefs are and as you respect mine I also respect yours.
| Reply by Giselle_CA on 6/19/06 3:59pm
Msg #126849
I meant whether...
I completely agree with your post. There is no convincing. (Whether) preaching, teaching or showing...I was posting what my beliefs are and as you respect mine I also respect yours.
| Reply by Anonymous on 6/20/06 8:27am
Msg #126951
Perhaps a better way to say it....
For those that believe, no explanation is necessary. For those that do not believe, no explanation will suffice.
| Reply by Nicole_NCali on 6/19/06 4:49pm
Msg #126858
Wow!!! this is interesting
I am a christian, I have read the bible (most of it is confusing) I take 3 lessons out of my christian faith.
1. Love my family
2. Love my neighbor
3. If I get confused, read and practice point 1 & 2.
All of the dogma is to dogmatic, I don't deign to know God's plan and I don't think anyone can say what the plan is or will be. If I interpreted the bible too closely, I would loose that one gift God did give me, "free will"
So I am one of the Christian's that can say that homosexuality is bad or immoral. I can't say that people who are Islamic or budhist are going to hell. I don't know if capital punishment is a sin, etc.
These are the things that I will have to discuss with my maker when the time comes.
| Reply by HisHughness on 6/18/06 4:24pm
Msg #126700
Re: I don't see that people attacked Dennis . . .
Julie/MI commiserates:
>>How sad that some just don't understand the difference between God's laws and secular law<<
And even sadder that some of us don't recognize where God leaves off and our human fallibility in constructing God begins.
With that, I'm ready to move on, as I'm sure the overwhelming majority of this board did long long ago.
A garage sale gene runs rampant in my family, deeply ensconed in the genetic makeup of me and my three siblings. Went to a garage sale today, bought an unused matching leather portfolio, six-inch wide briefcase, and biiiig combination lock briefcase/overnight bag with wheels, a gently used tweed carryon foldover suit carrier, a never unpacked lead crystal sugar bowl and creamer plus two 10-inch never unpacked lead crystal champagne flutes, all for $10.
Then I called up my daughter and told her she couldn't have any of them because I had to buy my own steak today.
| Reply by LilyMD on 6/18/06 4:28pm
Msg #126701
Re: Hugh, I love garage sales, too.
When my husband and I were first married, found lots of great things for our first house at yard sales, etc. My favorite find was four very nice wooden bar stools for $15!
| Reply by patricia on 6/18/06 7:29pm
Msg #126742
Re: Hugh, I love garage sales, too.
garage and estate sales are one of my main forms of entertainment, I have gotten some really great things without spending much money. This is really true, got an 18 carat gold ring
with a large purple saphire at an estate sale for $99.00. The person who held the sale had no knowledge about jewelry, but I do.
| Reply by patricia on 6/18/06 8:40pm
Msg #126748
by the way
I consider myself to be an independent but have from day one considered Dennis to be a pretentious loud mouth. My understanding is that we are not here to judge one another.
| Reply by LynnNC on 6/18/06 4:50pm
Msg #126711
Congratulations on your purchases . . .
. . . but your being able to buy all that for $10 is why I never have a garage sale - it is not worth the work for how little people pay for things. It makes much more sense to donate things and save all the effort.
| Reply by LynnNC on 6/18/06 4:45pm
Msg #126708
Christianity is not the only religion . . .
that provides guideposts for living one's life. I am agnostic, not an atheist. One can believe in a Higher Power without being a Christian, Jew, Muslim or any other religion. One can believe things written in the Bible are good guideposts for life, without believing certain writings or fundamental interperetations, which are in fact, not always held by all Christians.
| Reply by Pamela on 6/18/06 5:08pm
Msg #126715
LynnNC Re: Christianity is not the only religion . . .
Lynn,
Yes! We all have the freedom to believe in whatever or whomever we want!
The truth of the matter is : "That every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. . .!"
Philippians 2:5-11
Someday, You (and others) will see that this is true!
Pam
| Reply by BrendaTx on 6/18/06 5:17pm
Msg #126718
This whole discussion is one of the man reasons . . .
This whole discussion is one of the man reasons I wish Dennis would not post these types of things in a place where it strikes harsh chords. But, he certainly has the right to do it.
I don't see that Christ was served one single whit as a result of his post if that was his intention. That's just me.
In the words of John Calvin - "Doctrine is not an affair of the tongue, but of the life."
The who sermon for those who care to read it is here on my blog - I keep it there to read myself.
http://brendatx.blogspot.com/2005/03/life-of-christian-john-calvin.html
| Reply by vonneycali on 6/18/06 5:18pm
Msg #126719
Re: This whole discussion is one of the man reasons . . .
SSSShhhheeeeeesssshhhh Let's have the end of this already! Let's just put it to rest and celebrate Father's Day! Did anyone do anything special today for that special someone?
| Reply by BrendaTx on 6/18/06 5:19pm
Msg #126720
PS - my wireless kb is cutting up again, please excuse typos n/m
| Reply by LynnNC on 6/18/06 5:20pm
Msg #126721
"Doctrine is not an affair of the tongue, but of the life."
Amen!
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 6/18/06 5:28pm
Msg #126725
Re: I don't see that people attacked Dennis . . .
Sorry - but I saw the following in the thread, and to me those are personal attacks on Dennis, and not just disagreeing with his post.
"closed minded Jesus freak "
"Dennis is the biggest closed minded idiot here"
"from idiots like Dennis"
"He really is the epitome of a classless jerk"
And a subject line of "Dennis is a jerk"
I had actually skipped over the original post by Dennis because it was so long, but because of the responses I went back and read the whole thing, then I did a Google search on Gianna, and was very impressed with her story. I'm glad that Dennis drew my attention to it.
| Reply by LynnNC on 6/18/06 5:35pm
Msg #126728
Re: I don't see that people attacked Dennis . . .
I agree those comments are innappropriate.
| Reply by Becca_FL on 6/18/06 7:25pm
Msg #126741
With all due respect, Sylvia ABORTION talk does not belong
on a Notary board!!!!!!!!!!
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 6/18/06 7:31pm
Msg #126744
Re: With all due respect, Sylvia ABORTION talk does not belong
Becca
I haven't said it did. All I am saying is one should attack the message, not launch a personal attack on the poster.
There are often subjects on here that really do not belong on a notary board, this is inevitable with message boards. But I would hardly attack the poster by calling them jerks, or idiots etc.
| Reply by Becca_FL on 6/18/06 7:57pm
Msg #126746
Re: With all due respect, Sylvia ABORTION talk does not belo
I did attack the the message along with the intent of the poster and never attacked him pesonally. Just for the record.
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 6/18/06 8:36pm
Msg #126747
Re: With all due respect, Sylvia ABORTION talk does not belo
Becca
I don't believe that any of the snippets I posted from that thread were from you
| Reply by NCLisa on 6/18/06 8:56pm
Msg #126750
Re: With all due respect, Sylvia ABORTION talk does not belong
Especially such a "fake" story. At no time did planned parenthood ever do abortions at 7.5 months of pregnancy. The post was all propaganda.
| Reply by celeste/ca on 6/18/06 9:06pm
Msg #126751
Re: With all due respect, Sylvia ABORTION talk does not belo
Ever heard of partial bith abortions? They happen in the 2nd and 3rd trimester, someone is doing them.
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 6/18/06 9:21pm
Msg #126752
Re: With all due respect, Sylvia ABORTION talk does not belong
Well, the article wasn't a fake. Do a Google search on Gianna Jessen.
A truly remarkable woman! (All she has accomplished with Cerebal Palsy) She participated in the Flora London Marathon in April.
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