Posted by PJM/MI on 3/16/06 8:42am
Msg #105574

Dilemma

Hey All,
Been awhile since I've posted..been busy which is a great thing. Here's a situation I have found myself in:
Got a closing scheduled and bo's wife wants to meet me at a local restuarant. No problem! I meet people wherever. She pulls up in new 'vette, diamond ring on her hand the size of a dinner plate, beautiful gal. (Looks like Anne Margaret). She sits down with me and hands me an un-notarized POA signed by her hubby. Hubby can't be there, as he is a surgeon and in surgery all day. I call the TC and they tell me it's okay to notarize the POA... hubby signed it before he went to work that day and is in surgery all day.
So Mrs. signs all the docs as the POA and I send in all the docs with the POA. But I have a gut feeling all is not kosher. I call the TC again and tell 'em that I smell I rat. They tell me that I did my job, and not to worry about it. Okay.
I got home 2 days ago and there is a business card from a detective from the city in which I closed Mrs. Got Rocks docs. I called the detective and here is what he told me:
Mrs. Got Rocks hubby is NOT a surgeon, he is physician's assistant and did NOT sign the POA. He was not aware his house had been re-fi'ed. YIKES! Hubby is Mrs. Got Rocks 5th hubby, she has been in prison for these types of crimes in 2 states and is now wanted in my state.
Mrs. Got Rocks made several copies of the POA and signed my name to them and went out and bought not one, not two, but three vehicles using the POA. The POA she was using was not signed, not stamped or embossed by me.
So now I have to go to to the police station and give my statement. When Mrs. Got Rocks is caught, I will have to go to court.
My dilemma is this: For a POA, should I call the signer of the POA and make darn sure they really signed it? I feel TERRIBLE that this poor guy got duped by this opportunist. I have done 2 other closings with the wife signing as POA...yet I have not seen the signed POA, nor notarized it.
Anyone else have this situation arise? And if so... anybody got any good advice?
Thanks in advance!

Reply by Charm_AL on 3/16/06 8:46am
Msg #105577

wow! that's a dilemma!
I would have refused to notarize the POA because I think I'm supposed to witness a live signature. I think the TC was wrong to tell you to sign it. Now you've got all kinds of legal hassle.

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/16/06 10:20am
Msg #105651

Re: Dilemma-ditto what Charm said. n/m

Reply by Beth/MD on 3/16/06 10:22am
Msg #105652

Re: Dilemma-double ditto what Charm said. n/m

Reply by TitleGalCA on 3/16/06 10:26am
Msg #105659

Yep PJ...

those little words..."before me" are important. You already know what you did wrong (you don't need us to tell you); that and Mrs. Got Rocks demeanor probably made that rat smell strong!

If it were me, I think I'd make some calls, maybe a lawyer, the SOS, not sure but I'd want to know EXACTLY what the consequences for ME would be by the notarizing of the POA.

Good luck, hang in there.

Reply by John_NorCal on 3/16/06 11:20am
Msg #105719

Re: Yep PJ...Ditto for me too and.....

I don't think E&O will cover this, if you have it. As TitleGal said "those little words..."before me" are important." Get youself a lawyer muy pronto! Good luck!

Reply by Joan Bergstrom on 3/16/06 12:33pm
Msg #105781

Don't look to title/signing companies for moral guidance!

Calling up one of these companies and asking if its okay to accept a dubious or none existent
I.D. is useless as they will say to go ahead with the signing. Remember its our Notary Commission and we are the ones who pay in the end!

Reply by patricia on 3/16/06 1:57pm
Msg #105807

Re: Don't look to title/signing companies for moral guidance!

title companies give lots and lots of bad advise, another notary I know did lots of work for a
Fidelity Title office and and the end of years asked about getting a 1099 form, the escrow
officer told her she would not be getting one and that she did not have to pay taxes on the
money she made. I mentioned it was very odd that an escrow officer was now giving out tax
advise.

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/16/06 2:53pm
Msg #105826

Re: Don't look to title/signing --AMEN Joan. Thank you. n/m

Reply by FlaMac on 3/16/06 8:58am
Msg #105587

Sorry that happened to you. You might want to...

talk to an attorney which will probably cost you $100+/-. But, it might be a good idea before you give your statement to the police department. I don't see where you did anything illegal or wrong but you don't want your part in this to be misconstrued; which is common when things go to court. I think your idea to always call the signer of the POA is good but in this case...she probably had her accomplice waiting for your phone call. I guess you could've asked which hospital and then called there to see if her husband was in surgery? Good Luck with it...it's a shame everyone isn't honest in this world but then we were all born different.

Reply by Ilona_OH on 3/16/06 9:00am
Msg #105589

Re: Sorry that happened to you. You might want to...

Did you note who is was that you talked to at the TC?I try to get everyones name and pho.ext number when I have to call about something. You know CYA.

Reply by RayC_TX on 3/16/06 9:48am
Msg #105629

Pardon the new kid on the block here........

I promised myself I would never post on this site again; I just read your reply to the ladies post. Your reply made me do 2 things, look at the SOS State of Texas laws as well as the Florida laws and write this post.
Your statement, “I don't see where you did anything illegal or wrong" please correct me if I am wrong:
1. There are specific guide lines for signing with a person not present, mostly pertaining to DEAD, DECIECED or INCAPACITATED and last but not least MENTAL CAPACITIES of Signers. Specific instructions are given for these rare occasions. No place I can find in either of these notary laws is “husband in surgery” mentioned.
2. Whom ever told this lady to notarize the POA, was wrong, as an OFFICER of the STATE given the oath taken, it was wrong for her to sign it.

I am no lawyer by any means, but if you honestly believe the statement you made, you might need to go re-read the State of Florida’s laws again.
As for your advice of seeing a lawyer, I think you’re probably correct there.

Reply by Beth/MD on 3/16/06 9:49am
Msg #105631

Re: Pardon the new kid on the block here........

You are absolutely correct, Ray

Reply by RayC_TX on 3/16/06 9:56am
Msg #105637

I could be wrong, one of the other Texas notaries might ...

know for 100% sure, I think the closest thing in that instance would be an Ack... Stating to the fact that the Lady had seen her husband sign it and a loose Ack stapled to that POA.
Which again technically, is not very good, but, at least the notary is not making a statment that it was signed by Hubby in front of notary.

Reply by SatomiCO on 3/16/06 9:58am
Msg #105640

Re: I could be wrong, one of the other Texas notaries might ...

but you still can't notarize an absent person's signature.

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/16/06 10:22am
Msg #105653

Re: I could be wrong, one of the other Texas notaries might ...

You could only notarize the attorney-in-fact's signature.

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/16/06 10:24am
Msg #105656

Re: I could be wrong, one of the other Texas notaries might ...

Ray - if the POA was not notarized it's not worth the paper it's written on IMHO. What the lady said would mean nothing - again IMHO.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer. Ignore this.

Reply by RayC_TX on 3/16/06 10:46am
Msg #105680

My point exactly ..... n/m

Reply by celeste/ca on 3/16/06 10:52am
Msg #105686

Re: I could be wrong, one of the other Texas notaries might

Thank you for the answer about POA being worthless without notarization. Then we Mrs rocks is signing, you can only notarize her name, not with the attorney in fact after it since she has no proof.

Reply by FlaMac on 3/16/06 10:26am
Msg #105660

Did he/she notarize the POA? If so, I missed that part...

and if that's the case then I hope he/she talks to an attorney. I called mine out of curiosity as I'd never heard of this scenario before...his response was not good.

Reply by Charm_AL on 3/16/06 10:42am
Msg #105676

Re: Did he/she notarize the POA? If so, I missed that part...

flamac...back peddling won't help you. Not only can you not comprehend, you again, also gave advice that she could have called the husband or called the hospital. You don't do that. Talking to someone on the phone is NOT verifying their identification. Please quit posting nonsense and start studying notary law.

Reply by SatomiCO on 3/16/06 10:48am
Msg #105683

Re: I'm telling you, if something isn't done

with her Florida commision, someone is going to eventually end up in a whole tub of boiling water if they take ANY of her advice.

Reply by John_NorCal on 3/16/06 11:32am
Msg #105732

Re: Just to add a take on California Law re: POA

According to the California Probate Code, which may or may not be similar to other states:

4121. A power of attorney is legally sufficient if all of the
following requirements are satisfied:
(a) The power of attorney contains the date of its execution.
(b) The power of attorney is signed either (1) by the principal or
(2) in the principal's name by another adult in the principal's
presence and at the principal's direction.
(c) The power of attorney is either (1) acknowledged before a
notary public or (2) signed by at least two witnesses who satisfy the
requirements of Section 4122

So if a Calif POA does not have these elements, it is invalid. Then there is the issue of whose signature was notarized? The principal (signer of the POA) or the attorney in fact? In either case the signature has to acknowledged before the notary public. Calling the hospital, vet clinic, morgue or what ever does not cut it!

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/16/06 10:33am
Msg #105667

Re: Pardon the new kid on the block here........

I think you should become a part of the group again, Ray. I appreciate the leads you have recently given me. I am a rehabilitated parolee myself...or was it probationer? NO IT's notary on vacation. Dang word game yesterday has me all fouled up.

Post Ray. Just post "softly" and carry a big nerf stick.

Reply by SatomiCO on 3/16/06 9:57am
Msg #105639

Re: Once again, FlaMac is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG

when she gives her take "I don't see where you did anything illegal or wrong."

Please, will someone in Florida notify the SOS and get her commission removed so she can stop spewing this mis-information.

Reply by PAW on 3/16/06 6:24pm
Msg #105908

Anyone can file a complaint with the FL SOS Notary Section

Use this form -> http://www.pawnotary.com/forms/Florida_notary_complaint_form.pdf

Follow these instructions -> http://www.pawnotary.com/forms/Florida_notary_complaint_instructions.pdf

Reply by MichiganAl on 3/16/06 10:10am
Msg #105647

FlaMac, do you even know what a notary does?

You don't see anything wrong or illegal about notarizing a signature without witnessing the actual signature or having that person in front of you? How do you know that Carlos the Cabana Boy didn't sign that POA instead? Tell me, what exactly is the point of our job? Please open your training manual to page one. Stunning. Just absolutely stunning.

And you too, PJM. What are you thinking? Yes, what you did was illegal, wrong, stupid, reckless, and you'll be luck if you don't get stripped of your commision.

Reply by Charm_AL on 3/16/06 10:16am
Msg #105650

Re: FlaMac, do you even know what a notary does?

She needs to have her commision, if she has one, revoked for life for being so damn stupid and arrogant. I totally agree with Satomi on that one! I'm hoping Harry is seeing what's going on here and cuts her off before damage is done. Dangerous freaking mental case giving advice to notaries about Anything is going to get someone in hot water some day, she probably does the same thing she advises, just hasn't got caught yet.

Reply by Korey Humphreys on 3/16/06 10:24am
Msg #105657

FlaMac I always left your name out of things... but damn!

I have to agree with the other posters now. How the heck do you not see anything wrong and/or illegal? WOW!!!!

Just flippin WOW!

I think the SOS may need to investigate your practices. I'm sorry to say FlaMac.

Reply by Korey Humphreys on 3/16/06 10:32am
Msg #105666

Those that need a Florida Notary----Call PAW Notary Services n/m

Reply by PAW on 3/16/06 6:33pm
Msg #105912

Where do I send the check?

Thanks for the **unsolicited** accolade.

Honest! I didn't pay him to say that.

Reply by Korey Humphreys on 3/16/06 9:50pm
Msg #106007

Care of Korey Humphreys 60 Washington ST. #3 Ayer, MA :) n/m

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/16/06 10:28am
Msg #105661

Re: Sorry that happened to you. You might want to...

FlaMac - IMHO you are wrong. What you are saying sounds like you are giving legal advice and you are going to hurt someone like this. Again, IMHO. In Texas, we have to be harmed by the notary before we can file a complaint. Yet again - IMHO - this should be reported to the office that commissions notaries. By talking as if you know what happens in court you are making yourself out to be an authority. Danger...danger...danger.

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT A LAWYER. PLEASE DISREGARD ANYTHING I SAY.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 3/16/06 10:28am
Msg #105662

"I don't see where you did wrong"??? your insane FlaMac. n/m

Reply by SueW/Tn on 3/16/06 11:09am
Msg #105701

FlaMac WRONG AS RAIN

Yes get yourself to an attorney, I agree with that. When you notarized the POA...dominos began to tumble. How did you identify the signer? Ugh! Unfortunately for you you have become a player within this scheme and in my opinion carry some responsibility. How can calling someone verify something that sits in front of you? I would run and not walk to my attorney and follow his/her advice to the LETTER. FlaMac, you need to read the post before posting inaccurate information. We all live and learn BUT the first major mistake was notarizing a document without thought. While we can't attest to the validity of the document we must be able to attest to the signer.

Reply by Les_CO on 3/16/06 9:01am
Msg #105590

If you 'notarized' a signature, without having seen it actually signed, or the person that (supposedly) signed the document, you had better call a lawyer. If you "notarized" someones signature as a POA on a document, and the POA was not valid, you should not have a problem....As long as you properly identified, and actually witnessed the signature of the person acting as attorney in fact.
Good luck!

Reply by Charm_AL on 3/16/06 9:04am
Msg #105592

Re: Dilemma...Les

she notarized the signed POA because the TC said it was ok. scary

Reply by Beth/MD on 3/16/06 9:06am
Msg #105593

Re: Dilemma...

I definitely am in line with everyone else. You need a lawyer. Also, I hope you kept good records, that could be helpful.

Reply by srnotary_CA on 3/16/06 9:09am
Msg #105598

Re: Dilemma...Les

It is scary. (correct me if I am wrong) Here in CA you can notarize an ack after it is signed as long as the signer is there in front of you showing proper ID. But a jurat has to be signed in front of you and the oath given. I am not sure abbout the laws in MI but wouldn't they be the same. Because you have to ID the signer of the doc. So if he wasn't there to ID properly....Warning bells would have pealed loudly and Honestly I would have stopped the signing.

Reply by SatomiCO on 3/16/06 9:10am
Msg #105600

Re: Dilemma...Les

Just because the TC said to do it, doesn't make it right.

Reply by Anonymous on 3/16/06 11:03am
Msg #105693

Re: Title Company, Title Ins. and His and Her problem.....

aswell as Mortgage Lender. Now I guess they will have to handle it!

Reply by SatomiCO on 3/16/06 11:06am
Msg #105696

Re: Define His and Her and They ...

are you referring to the husband and wife as his and her and TC, Title Insurance and Mortgage Lender as they, and, if so, where does the notary fit in?

Reply by SatomiCO on 3/16/06 9:08am
Msg #105596

The POA itself was notarized without the actual person in front of the notary. A definite NO NO.

Reply by SatomiCO on 3/16/06 9:06am
Msg #105594

First of all, don't always assume that what the TC or LO tell you is true or fact. Sad but true.

You CAN'T notarize anything, POA or any document for someone who does not personally appear in front of you. If the POA needed notarized, then it should have been notarized in front of another notary.

When a POA is used, the TC and LO should be aware of it before the signing.

Reply by patricia on 3/16/06 9:10am
Msg #105599

hard to believe, the nerve of the title company telling the notary it is OK to notarize the
POA document, they will most likely deny giving that advise.

Reply by SatomiCO on 3/16/06 9:15am
Msg #105604

The only phone call to the TC should have been to tell them that the signing was being stopped because there was a POA that they were unaware of, and that it was not notarized. I'm not a goody two-shoe, but as a notary, there shouldn't have even been a question as to what to do with the un-notarized POA and absent borrower.

Reply by Cherilyn_CO on 3/16/06 9:32am
Msg #105614

I agree...

this is the scariest thing I've read on this board yet!

How does a TC have any authority to tell you to notarize a POA with the signer absent? And why would you even ask the TC?

I hope an Errors and Omissions policy is in place.

Reply by MelissaCT on 3/16/06 10:23am
Msg #105654

Re: E&O

I don't think an E&O policy will protect against breaking the law. I thought that was for notary errors, not illegal notary activities. I think the poster is on their own in this case...similar to if this notary had backdated a notarization...even if the TC says it's ok.

Reply by SatomiCO on 3/16/06 9:21am
Msg #105608

"I have done 2 other closings with the wife signing as POA...yet I have not seen the signed POA"

How can you do a POA signing without seeing or haveing the signed POA in front of you?

Reply by patricia on 3/16/06 9:23am
Msg #105611

in my area the borrowers have sent the notarized POA to the title company prior to signing the loan documents .

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 3/16/06 9:38am
Msg #105619

****Mrs. Got Rocks made several copies of the POA and signed my name to them and went out and bought not one, not two, but three vehicles using the POA. The POA she was using was not signed, not stamped or embossed by me.****

I reread the post for clarity. From what you described. So you didn't notarize the doc. I missed what state you are in, does your state require a journal? If so you would have no entry for the POA but entries for the loan docs. I don't see any problem. It is not our job to get the poa or copy it or anything. If the lender requests the poa or a copy for the stips to accompany the docs then you do it. But you are not responsible for a doc that you didn't notarize. Just as you aren't responsible for what is in the docs. If the lender accepted the docs signed as POA then that's is on them. Mrs. Got Rocks is responsible for her actions. Sounds like they need your statement or testimony so they can nail Mrs. which in turn showing you as doing your job properly and lawfully. If you did nothing wrong you shouldn't have anything to fear. You are a public officer as a notary public. This is one public servant asking another public servant questions for an investigation.
Oh and since you haven't been here lately do NOT listen to any of FlaMacs advice. She has been consistantly giving bad, wrong, advise that could really hurt a newbie or someone who doesn't know the situation. There's an ongoing problem with her and she has been called to the carpet and asked to stop on several occasions yet refuses to do so.

I am not an attorney. This isn't legal advise, only my opinion.

Reply by SatomiCO on 3/16/06 9:49am
Msg #105630

*She sits down with me and hands me an un-notarized POA signed by her hubby. Hubby can't be there, as he is a surgeon and in surgery all day. I call the TC and they tell me it's okay to notarize the POA... hubby signed it before he went to work that day and is in surgery all day. *

SaraBeth, I went back and re-read the original post, too. I may be wrong, but the confusion is arising because there are two different issues going on here. The original post is about the wife showing up with the signed and unnotarized husband's POA, which the TC said to notarize. Again, I may be wrong, but I don't think there is any state that allows you to notarize a signed document when the original signer is not in front of you. Correct me if I am wrong.

The second issue, which I pasted a few posts up was about the original poster doing a couple of signings for this same woman using a POA that poster did not see or notarize.

Reply by Giselle_CA on 3/16/06 1:39pm
Msg #105800

SatomiCO, regarding your post: "Again, I may be wrong, but I don't think there is any state that allows you to notarize a signed document when the original signer is not in front of you. Correct me if I am wrong."

Just to answer this in particular, in CA there is such a thing and it is called Subscribing Witness. It states: "If a person, called the principal, has signed a document, but cannot personally appear before a notary public, another individual can appear on that principal's behalf. That person is called a subscribing witness." (Civil Code Section 1195).

Disclaimer: Now I don't know if this would apply to the original poster since I am not quite clear as to details of such signing.

Reply by SatomiCO on 3/16/06 1:58pm
Msg #105808

Re: Dilemma: Giselle

Thanks for your reply. I guess my post was really broad, wasn't it? I should have been more specific. Is there any state that allows a subscribing witness on a POA? I would think that would be a completely different ball of wax.

Reply by Giselle_CA on 3/16/06 2:05pm
Msg #105811

Re: Dilemma: Giselle

You are welcome! No worries, we are all here to learn. In CA, is not specified if the Subscribing Witness can or cannot be used on a POA. However, it clearly states that SW cannot be used in conjuction with any Deed or Trust, Mortgage, Security Instrument, Quitclaim Deed, or a Grant Deed document.

Reply by Les_CO on 3/16/06 9:38am
Msg #105620

It is not the notary's job to validate the POA. In most cases the POA is in the possession of the TC or lender. However if you as a notaty KNOW the person signing as attorney in fact is using an invalid POA, that could be another problem. Never notarize anyones signature on anything if you don't actually see the person sign it. No matter who tells you it's okay.

Reply by Cherilyn_CO on 3/16/06 9:35am
Msg #105617

Um, you have to witness the signature...

Maybe I'm missing something here...Since when as notaries are we allowed to call and verify a signature?

Reply by Charm_AL on 3/16/06 9:39am
Msg #105623

my advice is to get an attorney. This was identity theft, one of the reasons we notarize signatures is to prove that the person is in fact the person in front of you signing the document. This is done with adequete identification. You had no body in front of you with proper ids.

Pay no attention to flamac's post, she doesn't have a clue about notary laws.

I sincerely hope you have E&O insurance, and I wish you the best thru the proceedings.

Reply by jojo_MN on 3/16/06 9:40am
Msg #105624

The first thing I learned when I became a notary is that you CANNOT notarize a signature unless you personally witnessed it. That is our main function. I can't believe a title company would ask you to do it.

Reply by Beth/MD on 3/16/06 9:43am
Msg #105627

NO matter WHAT a particular poster says, not witnessing the signature and then notarizing IS doing something wrong. Get an attorney, immediately. Especially now that you've been contacted by local authorities.

Reply by celeste/ca on 3/16/06 9:47am
Msg #105628

I think the real problem is... n/m

Reply by celeste/ca on 3/16/06 9:51am
Msg #105632

Re: I think the real problem is...

Sorry, hit the enter button on accident. If I am reading correctly, the lady came with a POA that was not notarized, I don't believe the notary notarized the POA, I think she just notarized the loan docs. Here is my question, does that make the POA void if it is not notarized, or can she still use it even without the notarization? I was under the assumption, that it had to be notarized to be legal, therefore she should have haulted the signing immediately.

Reply by jojo_MN on 3/16/06 9:54am
Msg #105634

Re: I think the real problem is...

PJM/MI wrote "I call the TC and they tell me it's okay to notarize the POA... hubby signed it before he went to work that day and is in surgery all day. "

That states that the notary did notarize the POA.

Reply by celeste/ca on 3/16/06 9:57am
Msg #105638

Re: I think the real problem is...

Well, then later down the paragraph, she said she did not stamp, seal or anything on the POA, even so, my question is if the POA isn't notarized is it void?

Reply by SatomiCO on 3/16/06 10:03am
Msg #105644

Re: I think the real problem is...

the original poster is talking about two or more different instances. This one where she was told and did notarize the POA and near the bottom of the original post where she has done a couple of signings for this same woman with a POA that that didn't notarize nor see.

Reply by SatomiCO on 3/16/06 10:01am
Msg #105642

Re: She/He(?) did notarize the POA ...

from the original post

"I call the TC and they tell me it's okay to notarize the POA"

Reply by celeste/ca on 3/16/06 10:08am
Msg #105646

Re: She/He(?) did notarize the POA ...

I read that but it wasn't clear, then if you read further down, she said her stamp, seal and embosser was not on the POA. So, which was it? Sounds like a made up story, or she is lying about what she did.

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 3/16/06 10:43am
Msg #105677

Re: She/He(?) did notarize the POA ...

You know what I'm reading this and thinking about my own state notarial law. In CA we don't certify capities. So only Mrs Got Rocks would be acknowledged, Mrs. Got Rocks, Attorney In Fact for Mr. Got Rocks would not be on the notarial cert. The tc of course has no grounds to tell her to notarize it. The way I read it sounded like she was thinking the same. But I'm not in her head so I can't know exactly what she is thinking. Keeping a journal and copius notes on the assignment sheet are critical, always get names.

Also I think the post was just writen with ferver and could have been put together better. Like the paragraph about not notarizing the poa should have been right after the statement reguarding the tc. I think we are looking at an editing issue and not an honesty issue. As for the statement on doing a couple of poa signings for a wife I didn't equate that as meaning for this particular wife. I took it as meaning she's done poa signings in the past without seeing the poa.

I wish I could answer on if a poa isn't notarized is it valid. I really don't know. I do know that I can notarize a poa but the what makes it legal is not my area of expertise. It is not our job to validate the poa.

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/16/06 10:47am
Msg #105681

Re: She/He(?) did notarize the POA ...

In Texas, the AIF would be noted on the ack.

C. For a partnership acting by one or more partners:


State of Texas
County of _______________

This instrument was acknowledged before me on (date) by (name of acknowledging partner or partners), partner(s) on behalf of (name of partnership), a partnership.



______________________
Notary Public's Signature

(Personalized Seal)

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 3/16/06 11:10am
Msg #105704

Re: She/He(?) did notarize the POA ...

This is a very state specific issue. I don't know MI laws. Where's Al. Oh and while I'm thinking of Al he truely does deserve a spot in the Justice League. Any suggestions on who he should be? Start a new thread on that though. I don't want to hijack this one.

If you write the capacity on the MI cert I think I would talk to an attorney. I do not know how or what kind of problems that could create.

Reply by trnsa_IL on 3/16/06 11:44am
Msg #105742

Re: She/He(?) did notarize the POA ...my 2 cents...

I think she did notarize the POA that she sent back with the signed docs. However the same woman who forged the hubby's signature on that POA also created several more versions of it and forged those also with not only the husband's sig but this notaries sig as well.

NEVER notarize for anyone who is not standing in front of you NO MATTER WHAT!

Reply by FlaMac on 3/16/06 10:29am
Msg #105663

That was my "take" on it but I respect all opinions. n/m

Reply by Korey Humphreys on 3/16/06 11:12am
Msg #105709

And for the love of God...

talk to an attorney before you talk to the police. It may be my cautious nature, but any attorney will tell you "Never talk to the police without talking to an attorney!"

Reply by SatomiCO on 3/16/06 9:52am
Msg #105633

"I can't believe a title company would ask you to do it."

Oh, I can believe it. I don't understand why a notary would do it.

Reply by LarryTN on 3/16/06 9:56am
Msg #105636

I would have halted the signing right away if the POA was not properly notarized, regardless of what the TC told me to do! I would not have notarized the POA without the person who authorized it signing it in my presence!

Reply by ColleenCA on 3/16/06 10:13am
Msg #105649

Re: Exactly Right SatomiCO

The responsibility ultimately lies with the notary and he/she should never have done this.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 3/16/06 10:32am
Msg #105665

Right on, Satomi, as usual. n/m

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 3/16/06 9:55am
Msg #105635

Am I missiing something or is this some kind of test?

I apologize if someone has stated this previously,
but I do not have time to read the entire thread.
How could you have possibly considered notarizing any document
without the signer being before you and presenting a valid ID?
The statement of the "wife" stating the hubby signed the POA
giving her authority to sign for him is wotrhless.
The TC can not tell you what you are supposed to notarize.
Only your state law and good judgement can make that decision.
Your state's law could not possibly support your action, and
in all due respect, your good judgement was apparently
not engaged at the time of your "notorial" act.
If the story you are relating is accurate, you are in a world or
hurt and with good cause.
Good luck.
I hope for your sake that the loan has not yet funded.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 3/16/06 10:30am
Msg #105664

PJM screwed up Bob, plain and simple; no test here. n/m

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/16/06 10:36am
Msg #105669

Re: PJM screwed up Bob, plain and simple; PJM -

You made an error and have come here to find out what to do. Yeah, we are alarmed, but do not do not do not listen to what FLAMAC is saying. I feel your pain, but really don't know what to do since I am not from MI.

If it were TX, I would go talk to an attorney but NOT take it lightly as FLAMAC has indicated. It is serious.

This is why we need to know our notary rules, ya'll.

JMHO

Reply by trnsa_IL on 3/16/06 10:37am
Msg #105670

Re: Bob, Will you email me, Please. thanks! n/m

Reply by SatomiCO on 3/16/06 11:01am
Msg #105692

Re: I'm beginning to believe we've been conned

I've re-read the original post I don't know how many times now. There are just too many inconsistencies. The original signer did this latest signing for this woman, plus she's done two other POA closings for this same woman ???

How many of us have done three POA closings for the same borrower?

Reply by Beth/MD on 3/16/06 11:03am
Msg #105695

Re: I'm beginning to believe we've been conned-Satomi

As long as it wasn't a conned to put what's her face back in the thick of things. Notice how that seems to workout, again?

Reply by SatomiCO on 3/16/06 11:09am
Msg #105700

Re: I'm beginning to believe we've been conned-Beth

Yes, I did. But once again, it has come back to kick what's her face right in the butt!

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 3/16/06 11:17am
Msg #105713

Re: I'm beginning to believe we've been conned-Beth

I've seen PJ post in the past and have no problem with integrity. I really think we need clarity on the situation. When "a wife" was mentioned it was in another paragraph and I think we need to clarify that PJ is speaking of other signings with other wives unrelated to the mentioned dilema. I think there's major miscomunitation and misunderstanding of the circumstances here. Can we wait and not speculate on PJ's actions. I'm not saying do not discuss the possibilities but I don't think a public flogging is due without clarity. Where are you PJ we are chomping at the bit to uderstand what happened. It truely is what NotRot is for, real discussion on notarial matters.

Reply by Beth/MD on 3/16/06 11:20am
Msg #105722

Re: I'm beginning to believe we've been conned-SarahBeth

You are right. We should hear PJ out for the rest of the story.

Reply by Charm_AL on 3/16/06 11:12am
Msg #105707

Re: I'm beginning to believe we've been conned

I believe she was saying separate cases and dealing with the wives.
I've looked, briefly at her pervious posts and don't feel conned. Maybe she's freaked. Unless you guys know something I don't.

Reply by Beth/MD on 3/16/06 11:14am
Msg #105710

Re: I'm beginning to believe we've been conned-Charm

I'll take your lead, you'd know her better. I guess it's just strange how FlaMac always ends up in the middle of things.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 3/16/06 11:30am
Msg #105728

I think it's the real deal Charm - PJM has been here before. n/m

Reply by cyndi_ca on 3/16/06 11:19am
Msg #105717

Re: I'm beginning to believe we've been conned

You wrote the words right off my keyboard. Couldn't agree more. After reading all of this, I was beginning to believe this was a hoax, a load of CACA.

Reply by cyndi_ca on 3/16/06 11:21am
Msg #105724

Re: I'm beginning to believe we've been conned

Why have we not heard anymore from this person. Full of it? Embarrassed? What.

Reply by SatomiCO on 3/16/06 11:24am
Msg #105725

Re: I'm beginning to believe we've been conned

I just know that I've spent waaaaaay too much time sitting here this morning. I'm out of here.

Reply by Les_CO on 3/16/06 1:10pm
Msg #105791

Re: I'm beginning to believe we've been conned

Maybe in jail?

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 3/16/06 12:03pm
Msg #105753

On further reflection, correction to my post

If the "lady" had said
"No $hit , Sherlock, he really signed it, cross my
heart and hope to die", and then spit into her palm
the "notary" would be correct in notarizing since
MI borders one of the Great Lakes and March has an "r"
NOTE to all who blindly follow advice posted here. the above
was a JOKE. In reality this is only true in a state that joined the
USA after 1970 and in a month that has an "x"
Gotta go to work, have a big snow storm due today.

Reply by Janlee_MI on 3/16/06 1:21pm
Msg #105794

PJM? HIRE AN ATTORNEY NOW. HOPEFULLY YOU HAVE E&O

Who witness the poa besides you who notarized it. You must Notarize for the witness and the poa. I would hire a attorney Now. Because this could be a felony.

Reply by cfwMI on 3/16/06 2:07pm
Msg #105812

Re: PJM? HIRE AN ATTORNEY NOW. HOPEFULLY YOU HAVE E&O

World of hurt, I agree with Janlee and I would hire one before you talk to the police. Take the attorney with you.

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/16/06 2:29pm
Msg #105818

Dilemma - I have been waiting for Paul FL to post

the final answer for FlaMac's input here. I fear he has fallen over in shock and can't get up. Can someone go check?

Reply by SatomiCO on 3/16/06 2:34pm
Msg #105821

Re: maybe, just maybe he's at the SOS office as we type. n/m

Reply by Charm_AL on 3/16/06 2:45pm
Msg #105823

Re: Dilemma - I have been waiting for Paul FL to post

he was up early and out to a busy day, I'm awaiting his comments as well.

Reply by Korey Humphreys on 3/16/06 4:31pm
Msg #105862

Like minds! ---- me too! n/m

Reply by PAW on 3/16/06 7:19pm
Msg #105929

I've been gone all day ...

... and return to find this. I'm still trying to wade through it, before I make any statement.

Reply by PAW on 3/16/06 8:17pm
Msg #105968

My response ...

First, the whole story is too fragmented, inconsistent and disjointed to be totaly valid, imo.

It starts off with an unsigned POA but the notary is told to go ahead and notarize it. Nothing states that it was subsequently notarized.

Later, it states that the Mrs. made several copies of the POA and signed the notary's name to them. But, a few sentences later, PJM states that the POA she [the Mrs.] used to purchase three vehicles was not signed.

My conclusion, other than I really don't believe the story as told, is that IF the notary notarized the signature on the POA without the signer present, then the notary is guilty of malfeasance. IF the notary did not notarize the signature on the POA, then, depending on state law, the Mrs. signing as an attorney-in-fact may be perfectly correct. (In FL, for example, notaries do not need to see the POA. We are allowed to take the signer's word for it, that they have a valid POA. We do have an affidavit that can be used that the signer swears that that have the authority, but we are not bound to use it.)

If the story is true, and I'm not saying that it's not somewhat true, but appears to be embellished, and the notary is NOT guilty of malfeasance, then the Mrs. is on the hook for the forgery if she signed the notary's name to any document. But, it was stated that the POA's the Mrs. used wasn't signed, then I doubt seriously that the Mrs. could have purchased a single vehicle much less three without the POA being properly executed.

Finally, as others have stated, the notary is not the POA police. It is NOT incumbent on the notary to verify the existence or validity of the POA. The notary's job is to take acknowledgments and give oaths to those who are present in front of them. The statements made by the signer and attested or sworn to are of no concern to the notary. (Except where the notary is privy to information and knowingly contributes to fraud and deception.)

Reply by celeste/ca on 3/16/06 8:29pm
Msg #105976

Re: My response ...

I tend to agree with you, PJM posted this subject once, and has yet to come back on to defend whether or not she/he notarized the POA. It seems to me this person made parts of it up to sound dramatic, could be wrong, but there are things in the story that do not add up.