Posted by Anonymous on 3/7/06 5:18pm
Msg #102996

ID FROM MEXICO

CAN SOMEONE TELL ME CAN WE USE AN ID CALLED "MATRICULA CONSULAR" ? SIGNER DOES NOT HAVE ANOTHER FORM OF ID.

Reply by Calnotary on 3/7/06 5:20pm
Msg #102998

NO you cant.

Reply by Victoria Moate on 3/7/06 5:40pm
Msg #103011

GOVERNMENT ISSUED ID- means US Govt

If you are signing someone in the US for property located in the US, then they need to produce at least ONE U.S. government issued ID - green card, passport, driver's license, etc.

PICTURE IDs are preferred.

If you are taking foreign ID's without a U.S. issued govt. ID, the loan could actually be cancelled AND you are putting the title agency at risk who insured the lender's loan.

Reply by AngelinaAZ on 3/7/06 5:49pm
Msg #103018

Check your state law!

I agree with you that the ID has to be US issued but in AZ there HAS to be a picture, the name, signature AND physical description. A green card does not qualify and now that I'm thinking about it... I don't think a passport has the required info either! (But I haven't looked at one in a while.)

Can you accept green cards in your state?

Reply by PAW on 3/7/06 6:08pm
Msg #103025

Re: Check your state law!

In FL, the ID does NOT have to be issued by the US or a state within the US. A passport issued by a foreign government is acceptable if the document is stamped by the United States Immigration and Naturalization Service. Also, driver's licenses issued by Canada or Mexico are acceptable.

So, it is very state dependent on what ID's are acceptable. Some states don't even have any concrete and specific, but leave it up the notary's judgment to satisfactorily identify the signer.

Reply by PAW on 3/7/06 6:13pm
Msg #103029

Should read ...

Some states don't even have anyTHING concrete and specific ...

Reply by Korey Humphreys on 3/7/06 6:32pm
Msg #103037

PAW...

Paul, this is relative to Massachusetts and am wondering how you interpret this:

Pursuant to Executive Order 455 (04-04): "a person who is not a United States citizen, "satisfactory evidence of identity" shall mean identification of an individual based on a valid passport, or another government-issued document evidencing the individual's nationality or residence, that bears a photographic image of the individual's face and signature."

So does the 'government-issued document' of a non-citizen include the driver's licenses issued by Canada or Mexico?


Also, do most states give special consideration to Vermont and/or New Jersey ID's? The Executive Order also states the following: "a person who is a Vermont or New Jersey resident, until January 1, 2008, "satisfactory evidence of identity" may include identification of an individual based on a valid driver's license that does not contain a photograph that is presented along with other documentary proof of identity that ensures beyond question that the person has the identity claimed."

Reply by PAW on 3/7/06 9:34pm
Msg #103085

Re: PAW...

The following is a personal opinion of the author and is not to be construed as legal advice or a legal opinion.

I would read EO 455 to include foreign driver's licenses if you could determine it's validity and currency (to your satisfaction), and it bears a photograph of the person, the signature of that person and the nationality can be easily obtained from the license.

I don't know if any state, other than MA, gives any special consideration for VT or NJ licenses that do not have a photo of the person. Florida does not require the identification to bear a photograph, so it's not an issue with us.

Reply by PL on 3/7/06 6:20pm
Msg #103032

Re: Check your state law!

According to AZ regulations you can't use my drivers license either nor my passport. Page 26 says you must have an ID that shows height, weight, eye color and hair color. My license does not speak to the color of my somewhat thinning, okay almost completely thinned scalp.
So I guess I will stay out of the Southwest for my property transactions, and as always for you Anon check with Sacramento to see what you can use. Good luck.

Reply by AngelinaAZ on 3/7/06 6:23pm
Msg #103034

LOL... How do they label hair color for a bald person? n/m

Reply by PAW on 3/7/06 6:26pm
Msg #103035

Re: LOL... How do they label hair color for a bald person?

nude? (Or is that taupe? Or change one letter.)

Reply by PL on 3/7/06 6:43pm
Msg #103040

Re: LOL... How do they label hair color for a bald person?

I prefer sexy or smooth, but I don't think that will be one of the choices anytime soon.

Reply by Sue/IA on 3/7/06 10:17pm
Msg #103092

Re: LOL... How do they label hair color for a bald person?

In Iowa hair color isn't on the driver's license nor is the weight anymore!!!

Reply by AngelinaAZ on 3/7/06 5:41pm
Msg #103012

NOOOOOO! n/m

Reply by FlaMac on 3/7/06 6:46pm
Msg #103042

Your state may also address the language barrier..

unless you're bilingual. In Florida, I turn down all work that is not written in English and with borrower's and witness' who are English-speaking. It will be in the notary laws for the Secretary of State where you live.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 3/7/06 6:58pm
Msg #103049

Please check your SOS handbook

Mexican and Canadian drivers' licenses are perfectly acceptible in CA. If you remember CA has generic laws about how ID's are performed and the minimum requirements of the document. As a multiligual notary I run across this a lot. If it was'nt allowed thre would be a lot of international commerce that couldn't occur. The Matricula Consular is the highest form of Identification in Mexico and is proof of status so that a Mexican Citizen may obtain a Federal Passport. Usually the Matricula Pupular if it is real will have the physical description, a Photograph and an original signature with an embossed seal, if it is not original with the signature and seal don't accept it. by the way the Seal must go through part of the photograph. It is about as good as it gets. The folllowing is from the 2006 CA Handbook. You should be familiar with it you will be seeing an increase fo foriegn IDs and they will allow you to differentiate yourself.
Satisfactory Evidence – “Satisfactory Evidence” means the absence of any information,
evidence, or other circumstances which would lead a reasonable person to believe that the
individual is not the individual he or she claims to be and (A) Paper Identification Documents
or (B) the oath of a single credible witness or (C) the oaths of two credible witnesses, as
specified below:
A. Paper Identification Documents – Identity of the signer can be established by the
notary public’s reasonable reliance on the presentation of any one of the following documents,
provided that the identification document is current or has been issued within five years
(Civil Code section 1185(c)(3) & (4)):
1. An identification card or driver’s license issued by the California Department of Motor
Vehicles;
2. A United States passport;
3. Other State-approved identification card, consisting of any one of the following, provided
that it also contains a photograph, description of the person, signature of the person, and
an identifying number –
(a) A passport issued by a foreign government, provided that it has been stamped by the
U.S. Immigration or Naturalization Service or the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services;
(b) A driver’s license issued by another state or by a Canadian or Mexican public agency
authorized to issue drivers’ licenses;
(c) An identification card issued by another state;
(d) A military identification card;
(e) An inmate identification card issued by California Department of Corrections, if the
inmate is in custody.

Reply by AngelinaAZ on 3/7/06 7:36pm
Msg #103062

Hold on there pardner'.

The last time I checked the MC is not the highest form of identification in Mexico. It is the most controversial and highly debated as there is no central database and they require little if no background verification. They have attempted to reform this and currently the MC can be used by BANKS as ID under the patriot act. (We can only accept it in AZ as a secondary ID for the lender, not for notorial purposes)

I'm not going to debate you on CA notary law because I'm sure you know your stuff... I am only debating the validity of the MC as primary ID for notorial purposes. I could be mistaken... it can happen... I've been wrong before... but I am curious about this one.

Reply by Ali/IL on 3/7/06 8:49pm
Msg #103076

Re: Hold on there pardner'.

I am still trying to find out if here in Illinois it is acceptable.

I say no. I contacted NNA and read my handbook.

They both say an acceptable id is one with a photo and signature. These cards have both.

I don't want to accept it as id. But, can I say to someon I absolutely can't accept it?

Reply by AngelinaAZ on 3/7/06 9:05pm
Msg #103078

Re: Hold on there pardner'.

My only advice to you is that if you are unsure... call the SOS for Illinois. I wish I could be more help.

In my state, the problem with the MC is the issuing agency. It was not designed to be used in Mexico... it is used primarily by Mexicans who are NOT residents of Mexico that need to establish bank accounts in other countries that they have not legally entered. It has been a source of many Congressional debates and in the effort to crack down on terrorist money changing hands... they allowed the MC to be used for Banking ID by immigrants that had no proof of identification, citizenship or status.

The special consulates that issue it are another source of hot debate as there are a ton of them... they don't have universal guidelines... and they don't have a central processing center. Last I heard they were trying to change this and might have succeeded.

The MC caused additional debate because some states allow it to be used for ID to get a driver's license. And hey, if they use it and get a DL, whether they were supposed to or not, my problem is solved as I can take a DL as primary ID.

I'm not the judge and jury here... I only know that this ID has caused MAJOR concern and is an ongoing source of debate in the war on terror.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 3/7/06 9:06pm
Msg #103079

Actually you hold on there pardner ;-)

First no one said anything about a primary or secondary form of identifiecation. If you read the whole post I attached the section from the notary handbook. My source for the statement that it is the most important piece of ID in Mexico came from Lourdes Munoz, a judge in the Compostela district of Nayarit and an acquaintance. As it was explained to me the Marticula is the basic identification used in Mexico to establish the person's identification so that they can apply for a voting registration card or a Mexican passport. As far as I'm concerned the Ca law states that there are certain attributes to required for identification to be useable, and if those attributes, an id number, a photo, a description of the individual, and some affirmation such as a signature is on the doc then it is acceptable. The Matricula has all of those and as far as I am concerned it meets the requirements of the applicable section of the notary law. I don't know any more than that so I can't argue it very intelligently. I realise that there is no central database but then there wasn't one in the US. I was under the impression the question was whether or not it was acceptable. These other issues are irrelevant to the discussion.

Reply by AngelinaAZ on 3/7/06 9:32pm
Msg #103083

Re: Actually you hold on there pardner ;-)

The question IS whether or not it is acceptable. My sister's college ID has all the required info and yet I cannot accept it in AZ. It is the source of the ID that presents the problem... and the documentation that is required to get one. We cannot be expected to know all the acceptable issuing agencies from other countries which is why this is usually left up to the state. If someone wants to take the MC down and get an AZ ID... hey great... they can probably do it... but it isn't up to me to deem it a valid identification for that person or not.

At least that's how I understand it... I'm curious to know more about this as the problem frequently presents itself in my neck of the woods.

Am I crazy to even think this is interesting? I do!

Reply by Jon on 3/7/06 10:22pm
Msg #103094

Re: Actually you hold on there pardner ;-)

The last time I saw a MC, they were missing the required signature. I have spoke to the SOS regarding this issue and they said that the MC is not acceptable for ID in Ca. That said, the SOS can be somewhat inconsistent with their interpretations of Ca law. For example, they say that the new military ID is not acceptable because it doesn't have all of the required info, but neither does the Ca inmate ID and it is acceptable.

Personally, even if the MC does have all of the required info, I would NEVER use it for ID. The Ca handbook says "reasonable reliance" and the MC is nowhere close to being reliable. For 69.95 I can get a MC card online with no questions asked.

Check out the link if you think I'm making it up

www.mexicanconsulateid.com

And this is only one of the sites I found that do the same thing.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 3/7/06 10:46pm
Msg #103097

Re: Actually you hold on there pardner ;-)

Jon, two points:

First: the CA SOS is fickle at best. One opinion over the phone can be really wrong, as you mentioned "somewhat inconsistent". Yeah, like WAY inconsistent.

Second: The handbook states Mexican ID *if they issue drivers licenses* is acceptable. Just because you would *never* use it, doesn't mean another notary wouldn't.

I am of the mind that that State of CA counts on the fact that I keep up on proper ID, and also counts on the fact that I'm a reasonably sharp Notary/individual. Still, if the handbook states something else, it's up to interpretation. That interpretation irritates me, because someone new can make a mistake.

If I were presented with a Mexican MC ID, I'd take the time to check it out. If I found that they were the issuing agency for Driver licenses, (according to the Handbood) I'd do it - because the handbook says so.

If you have personal knowledge that the MC card can be bought, I may or may not have that knowledge. No notary can be held responsible for purchased ID cards, as long as they use the guidelines set out by the SOS.

Bottom line - if the state can't make up it's mind as to proper ID, then they leave it to the notary. That's where the problems occur.

Oh, "missing the required signature" is very important. If the SOS wants to make the MC not acceptable, then they better change the language in the handbook.

This whole topic pisses me off, because the CA SOS won't commit. I've stated it before on this forum that the State of CA depends a GREAT DEAL on their notaries. The notaries judgment is most important, but it's not fair to them in difficult situations.

End of Rant; but not end-of-opinion.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 3/7/06 10:10pm
Msg #103090

Re: Please check your SOS handbook - Chas/Angelina

(b) A driver’s license issued by another state or by a Canadian or Mexican public agency
authorized to issue drivers’ licenses;

My question is: is the MC card the card by which a Mexican public agency issues Drivers licenses?

That question is key to this discussion. If so, then it's fine. If not, it's not.

If so, Charles is absolutely right. One other thought: Although I don't know Charles personally as in face to face, I have had numerous discussions and tend to side with him on most issues.

Angelina - you know I luv ya, but on this I say Charles is most likely right on, pending evidence to the contrary.

Reply by AngelinaAZ on 3/7/06 10:22pm
Msg #103093

Re: Please check your SOS handbook - Chas/Angelina

"My question is: is the MC card the card by which a Mexican public agency issues Drivers licenses?

That question is key to this discussion. If so, then it's fine. If not, it's not."


I can get a driver's license by bringing my birth certificate and social security card down to the DMV yet neither of those are acceptable ID for notarization.

Upon scrutiny by the DMV... those documents can serve to get me a DL which is then a legal acceptable form of ID. (In AZ at least).

Reply by TitleGalCA on 3/7/06 10:51pm
Msg #103098

So then, you are okay to notarize in Mexico.

Angelina, my beef is with the CA SOS, not with you. If they don't want to accept a Mexican Driver License, the the handbook should say so.

We are not the policing agency of the World!

Reply by Charles_Ca on 3/7/06 11:03pm
Msg #103101

Re: So then, you are okay to notarize in Mexico.

That's right TG. WE are not the worlds police and the section fo the notary handbook I posted earlier specifically allows Mexican drivers' licenses. Angelina says that it is easy to get docs elsewhere. Yes it is, I can go to LA and get anything I want in a few minutes, CA driver's lecinses, Social Security Cards whatever. I assure you that you have accepted drivers' licenses and social security cards that are fraudulent, because they are so good, its impossible to tell. The youse the same eqauipment and the same papare. But is it my fault if I accept a fake I can not tell from the real thing? Is it my fault that I accept an I-9 from an employee who falsified the information and is using someone elses SS #, thats not for me to police, I'm not paid to do that. Infact as a notary I luccky to get paid at all.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 3/7/06 11:06pm
Msg #103103

NO! and it is not your fault Charles,

whether fake or real, the agency who commissions us is responsible and that is who I take issue with.

We aren't the police, but we sure try hard to be at times and make ourselves crazy with the "would/could/should".

Reply by AngelinaAZ on 3/8/06 2:13am
Msg #103121

Re: So then, you are okay to notarize in Mexico.

OK... that's not really what I said. There are fakes everywhere. I have no information on whether or not the MC itself is fake.. my point was that the MC is not an accepted form of ID (here in AZ) because there is a lack of identification standards when they issue this particular ID.

Reply by AngelinaAZ on 3/7/06 11:06pm
Msg #103102

Re: So then, you are okay to notarize in Mexico.

I know your beef is not with me... and even if it was... it's OK... I've been wrong before. I don't think I'm wrong on this one though... but maybe. I absolutely agree that we are not the policing agency of the world which is why we have to stick to our simple guidelines. As I stated in an above post... we cannot possibly know all the issuing agencies of every country and whether or not they are acceptable or not. This particular ID has caused much controversy in my neck of the woods... we see them all the time.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 3/7/06 11:09pm
Msg #103107

Re: So then, you are okay to notarize in Mexico.

Angelina - you are so right. We live on the land of the borders. Seems in the political arena we are a loud mosquito in the ear of the politicians. Border issues plague us. My last test to renew my commission had 5 specific border issues in the test of 30 questions. Ridiculous.

You can only do what your SOS tells you to do, and with responsibility, controversy or not. Kudos to those Notaries that work hard at ID issues.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 3/7/06 10:56pm
Msg #103099

Re: Please check your SOS handbook - Chas/Angelina

Actually Angelina, and I have no argument with you I believe that each notary has to feel secure with their decision. I certainly don't know for a fact about the way the MC is originates in Mexico. The difference between you sisters college ID car and the MC is that the MC is issued by an actual government entity while the college ID card is not. If the MC has no signature, if the photograph is not embossed to the document, if there is any question about it authenticity then I would not use it. I am not speaking about you in this but I see a lot of notaries who post on this board appear to look for reasons not to notarize. I don't know if its a power trip or what. I try do something that is very rare these days: I try to be objective. The CA SOS in the Notary hand book does say that ID is somewhat at the discretion of the notary. I believe that we are doing what we do to facilitate transactions and make them safer for the tose involved in the transaction. I don't think I'm reckles but someone else might and there is the discretion. I see an awful lot of notaries on this site posting thins that are really not of their concern. I just try to do my job to the best of my ability and I want the transaction to proceed as long as it does not compromise the integrity of the transaction. I read your posts and I really think that we are a lot closer philosophically than you probably realize. Arizona is not Califnornia and vice versa. I have no beef with you and you have to do what is right under your law and within your comfort zone. Best wishes.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 3/7/06 11:02pm
Msg #103100

Re: Please check your SOS handbook - Charles

***The CA SOS in the Notary hand book does say that ID is somewhat at the discretion of the notary***

You are absolutely and clearly right! It's been a point of contention between myself and other CA notaries on this forum. Thank you for saying that and to date, I haven't had ONE OTHER CA notary say so...and I'm working on my 4th commission.

And, it's also up to a CA notary to be objective - something that a notary who is somewhat new can be concerned by if the rules aren't clear. The SOS irritates me because of that.

Thanks, again.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 3/7/06 11:07pm
Msg #103104

Re: Please check your SOS handbook - Charles

Its obvious the way some posts are answered that some notaries can't read, so that's not surprising. Objectivity is not as subjective as it might seem. When one is given lattitude to make decisions one also is given leeway to make mistakes. Now is it any better to make a mistake and prevent someone from getting something accomplished or is better to make a mistake and facilitate a transaction. They are both mistakes but is there a value difference??? I don't have the answer, I'm just aking the question.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 3/7/06 11:12pm
Msg #103108

Re: Please check your SOS handbook - Charles

I have to fallback on the point that I am not policing the world. I can only do what I'm authorized to do, and at best, it can be murky.

For me, I like to think I know what my State requires along with a healthy dose of common sense/knowledge of the world. I can't do any more than that.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 3/7/06 11:20pm
Msg #103110

Can'[t do any more than that, but I think you have good

handle on what needs to be done. I also believe that your common sense is your best defense and I think you are well armed.

Reply by AngelinaAZ on 3/7/06 11:35pm
Msg #103111

To TC and Charles...

Just be glad that the two of you don't live in my neck of the woods... 'cause notarizing with the MC around here will get you tarred and feathered by the Department of Homeland Security.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 3/7/06 11:39pm
Msg #103112

So, A...what's wrong with this MC card/document?

Believe me, if it didn't meet the reqs of my SOS, I wouldn't take it. Either I'm not getting it, or my SOS isn't getting it - it has to be one of the two!

Reply by AngelinaAZ on 3/7/06 11:54pm
Msg #103113

Re: So, A...what's wrong with this MC card/document?

It is not a Mexican DL and it is issued with little or no proof as to the identity of the person. To support the Patriot Act it was mandated that this ID, as flimsy as it was, could be used by banks so that illegal immigrants could open bank accounts. (They are desperate to follow the dollars if you know what I mean). Legal immigrants have Green Cards, Passports, Visa's, Driver's Licenses (Mexican or American), State ID's... etc. This ID typically the ID of the person who has entered the country illegally and wants to disguise their true identity and transact business at the same time. I am NOT being legalistic when I say 'Be careful with this one'.

Does CA law say "A Mexican DL issued by an agency authorized to issue DL's" or "Any ID issued by an agency authorized to issue DL's"?

Reply by TitleGalCA on 3/8/06 12:03am
Msg #103114

Re: So, A...what's wrong with this MC card/document?

It says, "a drivers license issued by another state or a Canadian or Mexican public agency authorized to issue drivers licenses".

So, I'd have to say yes to "A Mexican DL issued by an agency authorized to issue DL's" If MC isn't issued by an agency authorized to issue DL's then it isn't okay by CA standards.

Reply by Jon on 3/8/06 12:17am
Msg #103115

Re: So, A...what's wrong with this MC card/document?

I think Angelina's point is that a Mexican DL is the only one listed as acceptable for ID. It doesn't say any ID issued by an agency that issues DLs is acceptable. Since the MC is not a DL, it wouldn't fall under this particular statement.